Revamping the "Old to New"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-13 06:25 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Energy Melee
Energy Blast
Battle Axe
Are the first that spring to mind :x
Martial arts: To have worthy secondary effects and more fluid animation like the new melee sets.
Psionic assault: Updated with next upcoming Psionic melee powers.
Claws: Using dual blades as alternate animation (like Vickys) and VFX tintable like the new weapon sets, so Vanguard and Mecha energy claws make sense for powers like Shockwave and Focus.
Elemental armor sets: Updated VFX for all. Less intrusive.
Depends how you define "revamp".
Animations, mechanics, effects, everything?
Super Strength certainly needs a 'from the ground up' remake.
Battleaxe, War Mace and Broadsword definitely could use visual makeovers and mechanics to make them more varied and interesting.
Stone Armor needs that revamp that would allow Granite Armor to be customizable that was discussed way back when BaBs still worked on the game.
All the elemental "sword" attacks like in Fiery Melee and Ice Melee need options without the 'sword' animations/effects for both melee sets and the Blaster/Dom secondaries that have them.
Beyond that you have the oft-requested Mastermind pet customizations.
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I totally agree with this. My FM brute is my fave toon, but the sword attacks are a little irritating.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
All the elemental "sword" attacks like in Fiery Melee and Ice Melee need options without the 'sword' animations/effects . |
Of all power sets that are desperately in need of a revamp, blaster /devices tops the lists.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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this.
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Originally Posted by johnny_butane
all the elemental "sword" attacks like in fiery melee and ice melee need options without the 'sword' animations/effects for both melee sets and the blaster/dom secondaries that have them.
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- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
ekrisma stick skins for dual blades would be cool.
they would be so cool we could call them "chrisma sticks" because everyone would love them.
Trick Arrows - Needs help.
Force Fields - Not diverse enough in what it can do given the current state of the game and compared to other support sets.
Energy Melee - Needs help.
Electricity Blast - Personally, it has always been way too light on damage, with too much emphasis on a secondary effect that isn't that useful most of the time.
Energy Blast - Not diverse enough, either (though I still find it fun). It honestly feels like the same power over and over again, but with different damage levels. This is probably an issue with a lot of legacy sets, but it feels most apparent on Energy Blast.
Ice Control - Lack of synergy between effects and a couple unfair penalties.
Mercenaries please! 
I really the concept of commanding soldiers, but the set is just plain bad when compared to the other pets.
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Originally Posted by _Hush_
What powersets would you like to see revamped within the future?
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It strike me that this is two totally different questions. Or at least could be. Do you mean visually/graphically? Or do you mean a mechanical rework?
Depending on which you mean, my list would be very different.
Edit: Although, some sets might very well make both lists.
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Originally Posted by RiOTWRAiTH
ekrisma stick skins for dual blades would be cool.
they would be so cool we could call them "chrisma sticks" because everyone would love them. |
I've played with Escrimas, perhaps you mean them?
On topic:
Perhaps with old sets some new cool ideas could be added but really would like to see more new sets.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Very much this. If we had TW or StJ when I made my SS tanker, wouldn't have gone with SS as it stands (at least not with DA).|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Depends how you define "revamp".
Animations, mechanics, effects, everything? Super Strength certainly needs a 'from the ground up' remake. |
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| Battleaxe, War Mace and Broadsword definitely could use visual makeovers and mechanics to make them more varied and interesting. |
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| All the elemental "sword" attacks like in Fiery Melee and Ice Melee need options without the 'sword' animations/effects for both melee sets and the Blaster/Dom secondaries that have them. |
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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What he said.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Of all power sets that are desperately in need of a revamp, blaster /devices tops the lists.
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Super reflexes, either by adding more recharge reduction or giving it a little regen
I'll make my selection brief as it's "too much to ask" generally. Focusing on the powersets that seem popular, and are pretty consistent underperformers.
Dual Pistols
Super Reflexes
Regeneration*
Most of the new purchased sets, particularly Staff Fighting.**
* This really only needs looked at from an SO perspective, where it's absolutely horrendous. Using IOs, you can build it to be pretty crazy good. It'd be hard to buff it at one level, without making it overpowered at the other.
** I said I'd make it brief. But the sets that you need to *BUY* are kind of crappy. With the exception of Titan Melee, they've all got massive drawbacks that make them terrible. I'm not asking for King, Pay To Win, Sets but there's not much reason to take StJ over SS, a different playstyle sure, but they're both beat em up sets and it equates to less damage and more endurance consumption. I don't feel the set as it is separates itself enough from the other sets, so it's a fair comparison, even though SS is an unrealistic goal for every new set to reach.
The addition of KB->KD IOs will fix a lot of sets, IMO, so I left out a couple.
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I have to disagree with that - lots of people are very happy with it. If anything, that means more power sets should be brought up to the same level.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Super Strength certainly needs a 'from the ground up' remake.
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Or, I Guess if you leave Rage and Foot Stomp alone...
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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See, here is the thing. Many people have said that SS needs work, yet you disagree (I do too, FWIW). Yet you're also saying SR needs work, and I find it incredibly strong. I suspect that it might in part be due to the same problem you identify with Regen. Some sets are just middle of the road, or worse on SOs. Many of those 'underperforming' sets become insanely good with a good build and IOs. And I'm not even talking about Incarnate stuff here. If you buff them for SOs, then they will likely overperform with a skillful build and lots of IOs. |
Originally Posted by Virusman
I'll make my selection brief as it's "too much to ask" generally. Focusing on the powersets that seem popular, and are pretty consistent underperformers.
Dual Pistols Super Reflexes Regeneration* Most of the new purchased sets, particularly Staff Fighting.** * This really only needs looked at from an SO perspective, where it's absolutely horrendous. Using IOs, you can build it to be pretty crazy good. It'd be hard to buff it at one level, without making it overpowered at the other. ** I said I'd make it brief. But the sets that you need to *BUY* are kind of crappy. With the exception of Titan Melee, they've all got massive drawbacks that make them terrible. I'm not asking for King, Pay To Win, Sets but there's not much reason to take StJ over SS, a different playstyle sure, but they're both beat em up sets and it equates to less damage and more endurance consumption. I don't feel the set as it is separates itself enough from the other sets, so it's a fair comparison, even though SS is an unrealistic goal for every new set to reach. The addition of KB->KD IOs will fix a lot of sets, IMO, so I left out a couple. I have to disagree with that - lots of people are very happy with it. If anything, that means more power sets should be brought up to the same level. Or, I Guess if you leave Rage and Foot Stomp alone... |
I don't have a solution. But I don't want SR messed with (if anything, give a +regen boost and/or a end discount to the mez clicky sorta like Energize, but with no front-loaded heal). I'm not sure 2 Gun needs work, either (other than, please, for the love of all that is good, can we get some non-gunfu animations). 2Guns' versatility to me makes up for some of it's lack at the very high end. And the same holds true for a lot of sets. I think Staff is fine (but I haven't played it all the way, so I'll not debate that one extensively. I'm not qualified to, yet). I think a lot of sets people call for improvements to are fine as is. I also suspect that some of the problems of 'underperforming' sets is people that insist on trying to play them in a way that's not optimal for the set. Or that some sets bloom later, and get judged by people that give up on the set before it blooms. I don't see any way that this can be fixed, and to try is going to cause new problems. Perhaps more than it solves.
-Energy Melee
-Force Fields
-most blaster secondaries
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Allow me to present some reasons for a SS revamp:|
Originally Posted by Virusman
I have to disagree with that - lots of people are very happy with it. If anything, that means more power sets should be brought up to the same level.
Or, I Guess if you leave Rage and Foot Stomp alone... |
-Go look at Street Justice. Really, that simply is all that needs to be said.
SS's animations and effects are old. It's slow and many people have complained over the years that it lacks impact and 'oomph!' For a power set so iconic and what should be the flagship of melee sets in a super hero game, it's kinda sad.
-I have to point out that SS is a failure as a power set because it simply doesn't do a good job of portraying the fact you have super strength. It doesn't let you lift heavy things. Toss cars. Punch people though walls. It doesn't let you do anything a non-SS can't do: Shake the earth by stomping your foot? Punch stuff hard? Swing around objects? Any Kheld, Martial Artist/Street Justice or Titan Weapon user can do those things.
-SS is both over and underpowered. It's more or less a forgettable set literally propped up by two good attacks, KO Blow and Foot Stomp. It also has arguably one of the worst powers in the game; Hand Clap.
And of course, there's Rage. Yeah, we all know about the stacking.
But, consider this: take Rage out of the picture. Without Rage, SS doesn't measure up that well compared to how other sets do without Build Up. SS's attacks are balanced around Rage. Consider a situation where, say, a Super Strength Tanker and a Stone Melee Tanker are being buffed to the damage cap with a Kin buddy and Hybrid Assault Core. Despite not having Rage the Stone may be putting out considerably more damage than the SS because his attacks are better to begin with.
See, Rage may get SS closer to it's "top speed" quicker, to a point, but SS's top speed as a set may not stack up that good when other sets hit theirs. As it is, Hybrid Assault Core makes it a lot easier for other sets to hit their cap often, and already makes double stacking Rage largely redundant on a SS. Rage and double stacking it is only going to become less attractive as as time goes on and more +dam buffs are made available, which is probably why they've not been in a hurry to remove/prevent stacking.
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I don't want a "complete overhaul" for the sets. I think the core ideas are fine, but they just need something extra. Maybe I understood the point of the topic, I can't say.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
Yet you're also saying SR needs work, and I find it incredibly strong. I suspect that it might in part be due to the same problem you identify with Regen. Some sets are just middle of the road, or worse on SOs. Many of those 'underperforming' sets become insanely good with a good build and IOs. And I'm not even talking about Incarnate stuff here. If you buff them for SOs, then they will likely overperform with a skillful build and lots of IOs.
But I don't want SR messed with (if anything, give a +regen boost and/or a end discount to the mez clicky sorta like Energize, but with no front-loaded heal). I'm not sure 2 Gun needs work, either (other than, please, for the love of all that is good, can we get some non-gunfu animations). 2Guns' versatility to me makes up for some of it's lack at the very high end. ... trying to play them in a way that's not optimal for the set. |
Compare SR to EA. Just do it. What separates SR from the rest of the powersets, other than it does the same thing as other powersets through MORE POWERS THAT DO THE SAME THING.
It's even worse on Tankers when you barely even have to slot to be softcapped. SR/MA Tank? .. ah ha ha.
But yes, SR and Regen suffer from a similar problem, though I don't PERSONALLY feel like SR gains a whole lot through IO slotting. If anything, SR is one of the top performers at an SO level and lowers in performance when the pricetag goes up and up.
My point is SR has not aged well. I've always thought, if the mechanic could be introduced, it should have the ability to decrease power animation times. THAT would make it amazing. I mean, you're a character that has such awesome reflexes that you dodge hails of bullets but you're just standing there side by side with this Stone behemoth that takes every hit and you attack at pretty much identical speeds. SR also needs an endurance reduction or a recovery power IMO.
It also sounds like you also feel it could use a bit of a boost. :P
As for dual pistols, the damage is right, but the animations are way too long. This means you have a lower damage-per-animation, which lowers your overall DPS. We have TWO GUNS give us the ability to prep another shot while we're spinning/backflipping/turning into THE MATRIX and then fire both of them at the same time, or something. Even if the set DID get improved damage, I just don't think I could play it. The animations are WAY too long no matter the level you're playing the set at.
And, for Staff Fighting, the set itself gives you +RECH so I can only assume it's built towards having recharge. I really can't think of a better way to slot it out, yet some of the attacks take a very long time to swing for the amount of damage they deal, recharge build or not. Now, if you could change *MORE* of the damage type you deal by using Staff Mastery, and not just a fraction of the hits, on some of the "Finisher" moves, the set would probably be awesome. You could easily justify a noticeable drop in damage with the ability to alter your overall damage type a bit. Even though Dual Pistols already has this ability, the animations are just *THAT* long.
* Eye of the Storm is 1/2 of the DPA&DPS addition that Spin is.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
See, Rage may get SS closer to it's "top speed" quicker, to a point, but SS's top speed as a set may not stack up that good when other sets hit theirs. As it is, Hybrid Assault Core makes it a lot easier for other sets to hit their cap often, and already makes double stacking Rage largely redundant on a SS. Rage and double stacking it is only going to become less attractive as as time goes on and more +dam buffs are made available, which is probably why they've not been in a hurry to remove/prevent stacking.
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I personally do not even like SS and know in much group content, there are sets that perform better, but I still think that it's fine for the time being. Instead of worrying about the set that most people regard as being "the best" we should probably work on sets that many people can agree are not performing adequately.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
Empathy needs to be updated to be more useful in the end game.
Johnny, Virus...
I see your points. They are valid, I just don't agree with the conclusions.
I agree, Johnny, SS doesn't feel much like 'Super Strength' to me, either. So, perhaps rename the set, but leave it as is. Then make a new set called Super Strength, and give it the car tossing, and other things that do feel like SUPER strength. Because SS as is performs very well. True, under some circumstances that are fairly rare, it will lose to Stone. But, under other circumstances, Stone under-performs compared to SS. So what? Different sets should have different places of optimal performance. If all sets performed exactly the same under all the different scenarios, we'd only have 1 power set with dozens of animations..
And as for SR, I still disagree. It's got some problems when it's young, managing it's end and having only partial DDR, and only sitting at 20% def, but later, it's a beast. I prefer it to EA for better DDR, and positional rather than typed def. EA is worried whenever any Psi attacks are near. SR only gets concerned about the few unflagged attacks. Which would scare EA just as much. That said, I love EAs lack of concern over endurance, and it's heal that also boost regen is a very nice, tool, too. And the end drain does seem to slow in coming attacks.. Or maybe that's the -recharge aura. All very nice. So I have compared them. Quite a bit. Both are quite capable. Both have flaws. I don't find this a problem.
I tend to feel this way about most of the sets people say outperform. I usually conclude that people want all sets to mature at equal speed. I don't think this needs to be the case. Or that people want all sets to have no flaws. I definitely don't agree with that. Or, I think people just don't play to the strengths and away from the inherent weakness of a set. If you insist on playing your SR just like an Invul, you're going to have problems. But I don't think the problem is the set at that point, but the player.
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I agree with this. Though Empathy still has some awesome buffs that don't go un-noticed, in general, healing and more healing has become outdated.|
Originally Posted by goatface
Empathy needs to be updated to be more useful in the end game.
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I'd say it's on the honorable mention list along with but not necessarily higher priority than Devices.
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Originally Posted by Madadh
I tend to feel this way about most of the sets people say outperform. I usually conclude that people want all sets to mature at equal speed. I don't think this needs to be the case. Or that people want all sets to have no flaws. I definitely don't agree with that. Or, I think people just don't play to the strengths and away from the inherent weakness of a set. If you insist on playing your SR just like an Invul, you're going to have problems. But I don't think the problem is the set at that point, but the player.
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Generally, I have a problem with the sets that REALLY feel like they're balanced at an SO level, and IOs are just ignored on them. This can be good OR bad. In the case of Regeneration, I think it develops wonderfully, but definitely needs a little boost before that point, as most people are not going to purple/pvp out a character.
I think that sets also need to have flaws, that's part of the charm and early design for the game, but they need to be justified. TW's flaw is that it takes a lot of endurance - easily compensated for, and it's an insane set in the end. Perhaps it's perfectly balanced with SOs, as a result.
I'm NOT asking for more TW, or crying for a nerf. But it would be nice if sets that have (probably unintended) flaws and no real benefit to justify them would get a little bit of a buff.
You like SR, and admit that it could use some help. I'm in the same boat. Though we may not agree on all of the specifics, we can agree that it could certainly use some love.
Edit: I also agree about Super Strength. I never really liked it, as it seems like you're just punching people. REALLY hard, granted. But there are (seemingly) abandoned cars everywhere, Gravity gets to throw them around..
Unfortunately since we already have StJ and Titan Weapons, I don't think we'll be getting "Titan Strength" anytime soon.
Other than the concept of the idea, not being very "super" I think it's good for now from a balance perspective. There are certainly other sets that need to be looked at beforehand.
And I think that's about all I have to say about those sets. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the specifics, as we each have a different opinion.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
For me, it's Force Field. I think Force Field is the most iconic of the buff/debuff sets, and its a shame its not stronger than it is. I'm hoping Force Field picks up some of the Absorb mechanics from Bio Armor and that its enemy effecting powers become more worthwhile of a set that has 5 of them (the same number as Cold and Time, sets that are never mistaken for pure buff setslike FF is just because its "debuffs" are awful).
Of the remaining buff/debuff sets: Trick Arrow, Poison, and Sonic Resonance.
Blaster secondaries across the board aren't that great. Hopefully that is handled somewhat in the Blaster revamp. Devices specifically is in a dire place. There should also be some reason Blasters get 8ft radius PBAoE toggles, which are currently just weird.
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I see your point. But I think that having something that no other set can achieve makes up for also having something that most other sets can achieve. Not many sets can get to softcapped to all positions. Even fewer can approach the incarnate softcap to all positions with only IOs and the Alpha. That alone to me makes SR quite worthwhile. What really sell it to me, though, is what no other set can do, get there with capped DDR. I love knowing that as I sit at 50% def to all positions if I take -100% def debuff, I'm still capped to all positions...|
Originally Posted by Virusman
For me, I don't like the fact that SR has something that many other sets can achieve, yet it still has flaws and woes early in life. This goes beyond the set's weakness to unflagged damage. It would be nice if it had the ability to "Evade" attacks, in addition to dodging. Further mitigation beyond that 5% chance, perhaps. Or maybe even the ability to convert Defense over the cap, to Resistance. You're pretty much taking full damage, where many other sets (can) have the same avoidance AND only take 40~10%. Then there's the buffs and debuffs from others to consider, since SR doesn't see much benefit from more Defense, or ToHit debuffs. Resistance does help a lot though, same story with Regeneration, though pretty much any buff throws Regen to the point where it's crazy.
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And if SR doesn't see much help from +def, neither to all the other sets that are easily doing what SR can do (except for the DDR part). Granted, some mechanic to make over the cap def act to directly offset +tohit from say, Venged Nemesis, or DE crystal emanators might be nice, and probably wouldn't make SR OP. And granted, a small +regen/end discount built in somewhere also probably wouldn't make SR OP but would helpit some during leveling. But, this is what I meant when I said it could use one. It could have one added witout making the set more powerful than a set should be. But I don't think it needs one. I don't feel the need to lobby for those things because I think SR is fine where it is. Yes, it can hit the softcap pretty easy and doesn't see huge payoff for going beyond it. So I don't go WAY beyond it. I start slotting for other things once I get there. Other sets have to spend more IOing attention on getting to softcap, and can't do that. Howver, an interesting Evade sort of mechanic, or even animations, mght make my day. But I'd not lobby for that because it really doesn't need it.
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| Generally, I have a problem with the sets that REALLY feel like they're balanced at an SO level, and IOs are just ignored on them. This can be good OR bad. In the case of Regeneration, I think it develops wonderfully, but definitely needs a little boost before that point, as most people are not going to purple/pvp out a character. |
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I think that sets also need to have flaws, that's part of the charm and early design for the game, but they need to be justified. TW's flaw is that it takes a lot of endurance - easily compensated for, and it's an insane set in the end. Perhaps it's perfectly balanced with SOs, as a result. I'm NOT asking for more TW, or crying for a nerf. But it would be nice if sets that have (probably unintended) flaws and no real benefit to justify them would get a little bit of a buff. |
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| You like SR, and admit that it could use some help. I'm in the same boat. Though we may not agree on all of the specifics, we can agree that it could certainly use some love. |
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Edit: I also agree about Super Strength. I never really liked it, as it seems like you're just punching people. REALLY hard, granted. But there are (seemingly) abandoned cars everywhere, Gravity gets to throw them around..
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| Unfortunately since we already have StJ and Titan Weapons, I don't think we'll be getting "Titan Strength" anytime soon. |
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Other than the concept of the idea, not being very "super" I think it's good for now from a balance perspective. There are certainly other sets that need to be looked at beforehand. And I think that's about all I have to say about those sets. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the specifics, as we each have a different opinion. |
What powersets would you like to see revamped within the future?