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EXACTLY!|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
That's not how it works though.
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It is how it should work.
It would make things much more clear IN GAME rather than requiring testing and earning bug reports form people saying:
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| "Combat Attributes is not displaying properly. I am not seeing any increase in damage above 200% even though my damage is not capped. Fix this please. I want to be as strong as I should be." |
This is such a headache all because the number does not display the actual value in common enough situations such that it screws up logical calculations of damage totals.
What would you do if you didn't already know that enhancements count against buffs?
Would you add 100% base + 100% enhancements + 300% buff = 500%?
Or, would you "psychically knowing that the number isn't accurate" add only 100% base + 300% buff & enhancements = 400%?
That is my point.
Where has common sense and simple math gone out the window???
Edit:
@Zombie Man
That is my point.
I'm not adding in enhancement values because I just feel like it. I'm adding them in because the "buffs" in Combat Attributes "invisibly add them in" because they do not actually add up to 300%(in the above example blah blah) on a fully enhanced power due to the damage cap cutting off the top enhanced value if the "buffs" are capped.
Either the game, in the calculations, deletes the buff values to below the cap by the amount enhanced per power, and doesn't display it for obvious reasons, or the game deletes the enhancement values without showing that at all.
The game shows "100% base + 300% buff plus enhanced value per power" and never tells you "the damage cap cuts off a big chunk of that".
Players think "I enhanced my power to an extra 100% damage and I have 300% in buffs, that makes 400% extra damage for 500% WOOHOOOO!", but what they really get is only 400% in that situation.
It's absolutely stupid because the cap should not truncate that much off your powers' "obvious performance listed".
If they are going to do that then they may as well just reduce the Combat Attributes listed buff cap by 100%, to compensate for the truncation of value above the cap for a "fully enhanced to ED cap" power so that all powers' damage is easily and obviously calculated.
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Very often. It's quite common, actually. Anytime before you slot SOs it's very difficult to enhance that much. Even with SOs you only end up enhancing around 95% if you slot 3. Not everyone does. Anyone using IO sets may end up anywhere from 70-90%, depending on the set. Someone with Musculature may end up with 120% slotted.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
How often do you use unenhanced damage powers?
How often do you use enhanced damage powers? |
A kineticist may not slot for damage at all, instead depending on their self buffs to get them close to the cap.
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Why display the number that only applies when people use the least used powers? Why not display the number they use when they use their most commonly used powers? Why not display 200%, which applies to all powers, instead of a "not correct very often" 300%? |
Yes, capping it at 300% means that you need to take enhancements into account to calculate your final damage. You'd need to take them into account even with 200%, but if it capped at 200%, it would make it impossible to tell how much +DMG buff you actually had, making the display completely useless for someone who did not have exactly 100% damage slotted through enhancements.
How many characters do not have exactly 100% damage slotted in every power? Well, uh... all of them...
Edit: To clarify, I agree that it's not intuitive. However I prefer a somewhat useful display that shows correct info over one that lies to me between 200 and 300% with no way for me to see what the real value is.
Maybe in the future something could be added to the enhancement screen that shows on a per-power basis what the current damage (including global damage buffs) is, and how much "headroom" until it hits the cap that power has. I don't think the combat attributes is the right place for it though, as that should be about global character attributes. Until then we have tools like Mids as a stopgap for the number crunchers who care about those things.
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....incarnates(including Mender Ramiel's first mission)|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Well, one reason I can think of is that it's not actually wrong very often. Very, very few characters operate at the cap with any frequency. By being wrong in that particular case just doesn't come up that often.
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....teamed with a kinetics character(pretty common in high levels)
....teamed with empathy characters too(Fortitutde)
....the "Keeper of Coral Lore" end mission from Vincent Ross in Sharkhead isle
....any time you pop enough red inspirations and/or use Soul Transfer(or whatever damage buff from drain like the Warshade one)
....are a kehldian teamed with the proper archetypes
It's common enough to make that short list.
And actually, it's incorrect even before the damage cap, depending on how much you have enhanced a power for.
It's a mess. It's not intuitive.
I just want to see it be more intuitive.
I either want to see an actual "damage cap" listed in Combat Attributes in addition to the "buffs" or I want the "buffs" cap to be reduced to compensate for "the expected enhanced value of fully enhanced powers".
Is it too much to ask for a little clarity within the game instead of having to ask the forums to argue about it for hours or go to the wiki and get even more confused because there is no ability to ask questions to get help understanding it?
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Don't forget about Special (That's the one used by Hami and EoEs, it's also used for a lot of self damage powers like Absorb Pain). Unique1 is Crystal Titan damage, as well as a bunch of other stuff. 2 and 3 are barely used.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Here. I'm going to make your brain hurt even more. There's no such thing as "+damage". There are actually eight different attributes:
[...] Actually, there are three more damage types, named Unique1, Unique2 and Unique3, but players never get to deal those damage types. Hamidon's special damage uses one of those, which is why we can get resistance to it with Essence of the Earth inspirations. |
"Healing" is also technically a damage type. Strictly speaking, it doesn't need to be (non-negative numbers of damage is healing), but having it be one allows the devs to create debuffs that give you resistance to it.
There's also Electrical and Radiation, which are currently unused, though a few random enemies have resistance to them. Try using a power analyzer on a fire in Steel Canyon sometime.
Not to mention damage types 15-19, which don't even have names at the moment...
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So that would be why we get a lot more lag from tons of enemies than we should. They have a lot more information than is visible coming across our internet connections.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Don't forget about Special (That's the one used by Hami and EoEs, it's also used for a lot of self damage powers like Absorb Pain). Unique1 is Crystal Titan damage, as well as a bunch of other stuff. 2 and 3 are barely used.
"Healing" is also technically a damage type. Strictly speaking, it doesn't need to be (non-negative numbers of damage is healing), but having it be one allows the devs to create debuffs that give you resistance to it. There's also Electrical and Radiation, which are currently unused, though a few random enemies have resistance to them. Try using a power analyzer on a fire in Steel Canyon sometime. Not to mention damage types 15-19, which don't even have names at the moment... |
Lends credence to my thread in the bugs forum.
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No, that information is not sent by the server unless you're using a power analyzer or Surveillance (with the window open). The critters that have resistance to the unused types are extremely rare in any event.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
So that would be why we get a lot more lag from tons of enemies than we should. They have a lot more information than is visible coming across our internet connections.
Lends credence to my thread in the bugs forum. |
The amount of damage types is only relevant when they're used. If Barrier granted you resistance to it, you might have a case, but it doesn't. Barrier itself does have a ton of effects though, so it might slow you down if you're on a very low bandwidth connection and don't disable buff number sending.
I'm quite alert, but given my odd sleep patterns, it was a reasonable question ;P
It's not clear if you're saying the buff display should work differently, or that damage buffs themselves should work differently?
The display will be "lying" in some way whether it does or doesn't subtract cap 95% sooner to account for enhancements. If the display turns blue at 205%, it's still lying about your unenhanced powers, which is quite relevant when you have a power that deals damage but isn't (or can't be) enhanced for damage. The difference between +205% of buffs and +300% of buffs is quite important when, for example, using a Warburg nuke. This setup might arguably lie to you in less important ways, but it's still lying, especially when you get into type-specific buffs, or the way damage debuffs interact with resistances.
If you want to change the way damage buffs work so that the damage cap only includes buffs, and enhancements are outside that - well, that would not necessarily be impossible, but it would have non-negligible effects on gameplay and balance that are not necessarily good, while providing minimal benefit. The players who know enough to be aware that there's a damage cap, care about whether they've reached it, and know how to use Combat Attributes to monitor stats and pay attention to them, but can't handle the damage cap display being a bit unintuitive in its interactions with enhancements, is a group with such a small and specific intersection of traits that I'm not sure they actually exist, and changing fundamental game systems while probably breaking other things and providing benefit to zero actual people is, if I recall, something you usually rail against.
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How does your client side know how much damage is taken and how much a debuff affects things and what the debuff actually applies to?|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
No, that information is not sent by the server unless you're using a power analyzer or Surveillance (with the window open). The critters that have resistance to the unused types are extremely rare in any event.
The amount of damage types is only relevant when they're used. If Barrier granted you resistance to it, you might have a case, but it doesn't. Barrier itself does have a ton of effects though, so it might slow you down if you're on a very low bandwidth connection and don't disable buff number sending. |
Either it's a lot more over the internet or a LOT more on the server or both.
It still makes sense that it could be partially causing things like the Emperor Cole Personal Story to kick people with all those enemies and powers that really annihilate them.
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Honestly, I just want to see an obvious "maximum damage cap" listed with an explanation how it works(either in its own tool tip or the cap and explanation in a tool tip for "damage buffs" that are already there) so things are more obvious in game.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
I'm quite alert, but given my odd sleep patterns, it was a reasonable question ;P
It's not clear if you're saying the buff display should work differently, or that damage buffs themselves should work differently? |
It would be nice if they could adjust things such that whatever damage buff combat attributes showed was not truncated due to enhancements, but that would be too much work. I just used that as hyperbole to emphasize the point.
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The client knows that an enemy took 99 damage because the server tells it that enemy X took 99 damage. It has no knowledge what debuffs the target has, or what those values are. It knows that the server is telling it to draw a particular FX (say, the +Res orange shields) on a particular entity, and that's it.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
How does your client side know how much damage is taken and how much a debuff affects things and what the debuff actually applies to?
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The client knows the numbers of buffs placed on YOU because those are specifically sent. They didn't used to be, and when the devs added real numbers, they also gave us an option to disable sending of those numbers, for low bandwidth connections like dial-up modems. If you turn them off, the server just informs your client that you got a particular buff so it can show the icon, but sends no details about it.
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| ...It still makes sense that it could be partially causing things like the Emperor Cole Personal Story to kick people with all those enemies and powers that really annihilate them. |
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Honestly, that can be a problem too.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
The client knows that an enemy took 99 damage because the server tells it that enemy X took 99 damage. It has no knowledge what debuffs the target has, or what those values are.
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Just imagine how much data that stuff ends up being?
Games could save so much bandwidth(increasing speed while decreasing latency and not hitting data caps) by having identical enemies have identical numbers stored client side and calculated client-side such that the only information that needs to be transferred is "who fires what?" and "hit or miss?".
Of course, that's really simplified compared to the actual way it would work. It's just some insight into how I've been thinking about how to improve online gaming for my own game idea.
I just know this game is a lot less efficient and stable than it could be.
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Worse connection means a DC becomes a crash. I should know given my lack of DCs for the past year plus despite crashes in certain situations.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Whatever the problem with that mission is, it's entirely serverside (like the ITF "lag" used to be). Something specific to that mission is bugged and making the server take a lot longer to process things than it should. There were reports in beta of the map server actually crashing and causing the character to become inaccessible. Now it just causes disconnects, so that's some improvement I guess.
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The live servers can likely handle the load better and have a better connection to players.
Also, it's not a bug. That mission just simply has too many enemies with way too powerful attacks to use against them. Too much information, especially if it uses the magisterium map(which has heavy load even solo on early Praetorian missions).
They can't fix it without likely going on a deleting spree or much more time-consuming optimization of how enemies and attacks work in general.
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Third Options : The damage cap works like To-hit floor and cap.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Either the game, in the calculations, deletes the buff values to below the cap by the amount enhanced per power, and doesn't display it for obvious reasons, or the game deletes the enhancement values without showing that at all. |
It does the calculations with all the pluses and minuses, then if below 10% raises it up to 10%, and if above the AT's damage cap, lowers it to the cap.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Honestly, that can be a problem too.
Just imagine how much data that stuff ends up being? Games could save so much bandwidth(increasing speed while decreasing latency and not hitting data caps) by having identical enemies have identical numbers stored client side and calculated client-side such that the only information that needs to be transferred is "who fires what?" and "hit or miss?". Of course, that's really simplified compared to the actual way it would work. It's just some insight into how I've been thinking about how to improve online gaming for my own game idea. I just know this game is a lot less efficient and stable than it could be. |
If my computer has a faster set clockspeed, that could affect the "ticks" - regen faster, recharge, faster, etc. Also, enables blatant client side hacks like ones to manipulate to-hit chances or damage or just plain "chances to".
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Bring up the netgraph in the game; /netgraph 1
See the numbers next to Send (to the server) and Recv (from the server)? That's in bytes per second. AoEs set off by teammates in large crowds can spike those numbers, sometimes significantly enough to cause problems with low bandwidth connections. Anything from rubberbanding to being mapserved as the netgraph goes solid green with yellow and red bands.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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Yeah, games did that like 10 years ago. Do you know that leads to? Hacking. Massive, massive hacking. So the server ends up needing to do all that stuff anyway to make sure the client isn't sending it complete bogosity, so it might as well just to it all and tell all the clients what's going on. It really is the only way.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Games could save so much bandwidth(increasing speed while decreasing latency and not hitting data caps) by having identical enemies have identical numbers stored client side and calculated client-side such that the only information that needs to be transferred is "who fires what?" and "hit or miss?".
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
See also: Diablo 2 (HACKASAURUS REX) vs Diablo 3 (log into Bliznet for your solo game).
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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The hacking in Diablo 3 has gotten so bad that Blizzard announced that they are requiring the use of their Authenticator to access their Real Money Auction House. (Kind of the equivalent of the Paragon Store, I think.) It's going to cost $6.50 just to use that feature of their game now.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5594218404
The ideas presented here for "making stuff go faster" or whatever are nice for their interest and enthusiasm, but these are technical issues that are known to be not trivial to solve. "The client is in the hands of the enemy." (Who remembers where THAT quote is from?) Many of these ideas were tried and found to be trivial to defeat, from a security standpoint.
It wouldn't really help anyway. This is a multiplayer game, so if calculations like that happened on the client, the client would just have to send it to the server anyway, so that it can inform everyone else's client.
In fact, you might actually end up sending MORE information across the wire, since the client then has to track the state of buffs/debuffs on every single target and keep that in sync with the server as well. Currently a lot of that doesn't have to be transmitted.
You can't really have them be performed independently on both ends due two important factors:
1. RNG. A lot of things are based on a percent chance of them occurring, so the client and server have to be in agreement about whether it happened or not. It's even worse for games where ALL damage has a range (say, 30-40 weapon damage) and is determined by RNG.
2. Timing differences due to latency.
There are very good reasons that MMOs almost universally use a model where the server is the authority of game state, and the potential of client hacks is only a small part of that.
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It works for other games, but I know the risks and have already planned simple ways around the problems.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Client side calculations would be bad.
If my computer has a faster set clockspeed, that could affect the "ticks" - regen faster, recharge, faster, etc. Also, enables blatant client side hacks like ones to manipulate to-hit chances or damage or just plain "chances to". |
I'm a bit more clever than I may appear.
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I thought that was number of "packets", not size of the packets?
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Bring up the netgraph in the game; /netgraph 1
See the numbers next to Send (to the server) and Recv (from the server)? That's in bytes per second. |
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How to win friends and influence people. <sigh>|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
To remove all doubt I will go into "kindergarten mode"....
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
It is how it should work.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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No, its bytes. Since the game was quite playable on dial-up back in the day, which maxed out at around 5 kilobytes per second down, those numbers are bytes per second. |
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I thought that was number of "packets", not size of the packets?
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There was an update years ago (5 or so) that significantly changed to amount of data the server sent. At the time there was a lot of graphs generated and presented in the forums showing the actual in game data rates during certain events and in certain zones showing maximum dial-up rates being exceeded, sometimes by a large amount. It wasn't until Freedom when the game's minimum requirements drop dial-up as an option.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Quote:
Explain your simple ways.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
It works for other games, but I know the risks and have already planned simple ways around the problems.
I'm a bit more clever than I may appear. |
Please.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Quote:
And get them stolen before cpyrighted? No.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Explain your simple ways.
Please. |
I wouldn't help this game if my life depended on it either. They don't care about us customers, least of all the non-VIP who still spend money, and they don't listen to the obvious problems this game has.
I just got treated very poorly by customer support so no more Mr. Helpful. I'm telling it like I now feel, abused and unwanted.
Make whatever jokes you want. They just prove how horrible this community sure as hell seems right now. A community the company representatives love being that horrible so long as they get their almighty dollar.
2) Reread the first page.
UberGuy said:
Why the hell does it display 300% "buffs" when any enhanced power only gets 200% "buffs" because enhancements count against the "buff cap"?
200% != 300%
(that's "does not equal")
That monitored attribute cares not for how much Enhanced damage you have in each power which may be 0% (for not-yet-slotted or unenhanceable powers), or it may be 7%, or it may be 83%, or it may be 143%. And it may be a wildly different value for each power you have.
The attribute shows *global* *bonus* damage. This is the extra damage each power gets (well, i.e., powers that are affected by global bonus damage, some are not).
If you're a Defender this number turns blue to show a cap at 300%, because for any power that has a base damage (i.e., 100% of damage) and no other personal and individual enhancements, it will take the full 300% global bonus of damage. However, if the power already is enhanced 50% by Enhancements, it will only use 250% of the blued-out 300% cap. But, either way, you know it is indeed enjoying 300% total damage enhancement.
But, OTOH, if the global bonus in this example is showing just 250% global bonus damage and you're enhanced in that particular power by 50%, you won't know its total damage bonus (which in this case is 300%) because the Enhancement Value is found in the Enhancement window for that power, and not in the Combat Attributes.
And the monitor *can't* show the value for each power, because each power will have its own amount of Enhancements.
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