This is great information. Anyone have input regarding MA/Invul builds? Don't want to hijack this thread for MA/Invul builds and advice, so I created a MA/Invul specific thread.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=293850
For starters, FrierFly, are you familiar with Call Me Awesome's Invulnerability guide? It's Tanker-oriented, but the same sets work for Scrapper defense bonuses.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Genuine question: why?|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Invuln is awesome on scrappers.
But it is much, MUCH better on brutes. I have multiple inv scraps, and my inv brute is...better. A lot. |
I have the feeling FA and ElA are better because of the self 90% res but Invul hardly goes passed 70%. Scrappers dont lose anything due the class design on Invul, do they?
As for the topic, I have a slight feeling that Invul may also perform good on accucary hungry sets like TW (most likely running Cardiac or/and Ageless).
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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Genuine question: why?
I have the feeling FA and ElA are better because of the self 90% res but Invul hardly goes passed 70%. Scrappers dont lose anything due the class design on Invul, do they? As for the topic, I have a slight feeling that Invul may also perform good on accucary hungry sets like TW (most likely running Cardiac or/and Ageless). |
Invuln has a superb hit-point boosting power, dull pain, that brutes gain a lot more from.
Brutes have 90 percent resistance caps, and every time you hit barrier, you hit 90 percent vs S/L damage, and stay there for a good long time. And if barrier isn't up at a good moment, I punch Unstoppable instead.
You have not seen glorious until you've seen an Unstoppable brute at fury cap smashing a mountain of bad guys.
My particular inv brute is a claw/invuln. It is a ridiculous mass of awesome.
(looks for build.)
Aha, there it is. This is a 'tanker' build that also happens to do stupidly ridiculous amounts of damage. It's designed to be surrounded at all times, always pressing forward.
Here, this is very close to what I run on live:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.956
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Honorah_21_2: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- Mocking-Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(3), Mocking-Taunt(5), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(7), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(37), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(40)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(43), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(46), GA-3defTpProc(46), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(46)
Level 2: Slash -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(5), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(21), Achilles-ResDeb%(37)
Level 4: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(13), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(37), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- Panac-Heal(A), Panac-Heal/EndRedux(15), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Panac-Heal/Rchg(42), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(43)
Level 8: Spin -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Dmg(9), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(9), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(11), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 10: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(39), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), SW-ResDam/Re TP(17), LkGmblr-Def(31)
Level 14: Boxing -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A)
Level 16: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 18: Focus -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(19), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(23), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29)
Level 20: Follow Up -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mako-Acc/Dmg(25), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(27), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29)
Level 22: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(34)
Level 24: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33)
Level 28: Invincibility -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(31), LkGmblr-Rchg+(42), HO:Cyto(50)
Level 30: Resist Energies -- Aegis-Psi/Status(A), Aegis-ResDam(45), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(45)
Level 32: Resist Elements -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(34), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(36), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Superior Conditioning -- P'Shift-End%(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(45)
Level 47: Taunt -- Mocking-Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(48), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(48), Mocking-Taunt(48), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(50), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Unstoppable -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(43)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Marshal
Level 0: Invader
Level 50: Reactive Total Radial Conversion
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
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| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1543;711;1422;HEX;| |78DA6594DB521341108667B31B212191C4800143CE404EB0B008B75AA580A2A40AC| |A2AB5BC49C5306417E2269504954B5FC11BAF3C3E808FA0E2E9117C0B0FF72AB1B3| |FD835B95ADA4BE9EDEEEE9BF67D2293F5E0DBCBDF6E4B25046AE36AA9D4EE54AFBA| |02BBDE56ADDAAA94288C0F5A6DD6C57CDCA9251591A2247D809A89465434A9D521E| |75E2EC5995BBD2EE487DC37E78D0B065BB7ADF6A58DDC3F0866DCAB6B4BBFA8931B| |AD56C36F44D59DD91ED8E69B50227EB9665D783CE62DDAA9B5D5AF99DD5AD96943B| |936B2DABA6AFD1C6F5C34AB9DAE9CAF6218B9D205525FAD682024FCF2B1E7884303| |4E16930359379C6624EEF3173FBCC77FD34C5C9D544868C9C268A09E67C125CA203| |F111A3B48E6B62278814AAA79450AF887A39D4CB33C70AA87B448C68E23D65A95C4| |F55512F807AD3A85748333F509417DABC29D5D9E7EC1418671612CC62922949DB10| |B40D09F60DFF660DC37F98FEBFE03133D0638629D1076DBE71C5F1A5C3CCD910981| |00ECF53EC08C77A46101BBAC9F51263BC562886AFA6278235CEFB481845DE28FA0F| |A1FF59F46D5252183D84DF70DEB9D7E073D47F01BE644EBD62EE526E44F138B9917| |DF64DEC81BBCC0B75D044AEC55449EF38FA1F87B604B4A5A02D8D3B8A526C14BD45| |63DCB746BE49F436893349E12C5238BFCFF436A6A84E8DD80A415345022C20C7C0F| |A13218EFDE22BFC6E6E19349847F43609CD49684E4373165A73D0FE85A232D82F83| |5A59E8CB425F867A98E11865A6C4E792037D7429797E27F2CFF0DB215F09F125F8E| |66E70BD3ADD858E7BD431970B98CB05CCE102E6D3C03C1A98D3AF94B588F35D2CB1| |B629ED74CEE9438FD8747BE659E596763A9D4281F2F57E9CB2DEF7F57C21D19F0BC| |72E0EECB838E031063C17073CCB039EEF7E2A88B352A0ECE77F9FA25CE2FF92E26D| |EEED873B3ECFF1BFDCF138DBB1A7CC6D7FDFCB5DDC71D9F75CF65D97FD2D4269B0B| |75DF63F9D62E20F| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
I much prefer Rebirth than Barrier on any invul - which doesn't invalidate the argument /inv on brutes beats /inv on scrappers, hovering around 3k hp rather than about 2.4k means 25% more hitpoints recovered per second. When we're talking about ~700% regen at the lowest point, this is a significant difference.
A few external resistance buffs, or sturdies, can also dramatically improve your survivability in some situations. 90% res takes 0.4 as much damage as 75% res (or 75% res takes 2.5 times as much damage as 90% res), and it only takes +15% to go from 75% to 90%.
One potential downside is, lacking any endurance management, the loss of CP can be a hurdle if you build for highend performance. Not impossible to manage by any means, but it will imply a greater build focus on endurance reduction/recovery than your average scrapper with CP will need to have.
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Also an excellent choice. Indeed, rebirth-dull pain-unstoppable can be combined to make a toon that nearly ignores the unstoppable crash. The build above has three end procs, it is not at all uncommon to get a proc when the crash hits which gives you ten end to keep your toggles up.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I much prefer Rebirth than Barrier on any invul - which doesn't invalidate the argument /inv on brutes beats /inv on scrappers, hovering around 3k hp rather than about 2.4k means 25% more hitpoints recovered per second. When we're talking about ~700% regen at the lowest point, this is a significant difference.
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It is bliss.
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| A few external resistance buffs, or sturdies, can also dramatically improve your survivability in some situations. 90% res takes 0.4 as much damage as 75% res (or 75% res takes 2.5 times as much damage as 90% res), and it only takes +15% to go from 75% to 90%. |
Also true. For an invuln brute, oranges are USEFUL.
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| One potential downside is, lacking any endurance management, the loss of CP can be a hurdle if you build for highend performance. Not impossible to manage by any means, but it will imply a greater build focus on endurance reduction/recovery than your average scrapper with CP will need to have. |
I find it works well, especially with claws being a lightweight set to run.
My newest Incarnate is my SS/Inv brute, and she's cruising through everything, until Belladonna's arc. (Haven't done all of DA yet, though, so don't know how she'd handle that.)
I built her standard SS/Inv (soft-capped S/L with 1 in Invin aura, +HP/+Regen elsewhere, +Rchg, etc.), and it seems the things that are killing me quite handily in the Belladonna arc at +0/x8 is the Fear and the Def Debuff. I have all the passives, but no Destiny power yet, would it make that much of a difference? What would I need to give up for Leadership?
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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Rebirth roughly doubles your survivability if you only consider its lowest value (which you'll always have, at T4). Realistically, it's better than that as the heal + burst part can save your hide.
Likewise, Barrier at its lowest point is a hefty survivability boon against S/L, potentially close to double based on your resistance alone, and there's the added defense to consider. Just like Rebirth, it's even stronger in actual gameplay as having the option to bump your resistances to 90% and your defenses to elude-like levels for ten seconds is essentially a get out of jail free card available every two minutes.
Check out the I24 beta. You will be happy with some the changes to /Invulnerability with the IO set changes.
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Happy?|
Originally Posted by fallenz
Check out the I24 beta. You will be happy with some the changes to /Invulnerability with the IO set changes.
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Oh yes.
Of course, this makes brutes...better. WAY better.
For example, the build I posted above? Copied to Beta, it has 90 percent S/L resists on top of everything else.
YES, PLEASE.
^ Hehe, that was my first thought when I copied my scrapper and noticed I had 89% S/L res.
As a "consolation" prize of sorts /inv scrappers get a free power pick. Tough isn't needed anymore.
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This is so right, DM/Invuln is prolly most amazing scrapper I've ever had. Kat/Invuln is also fun although I don't play him that much lately and my next project is probably going to be a Mace/Invuln although musing with a DB/Invuln too... ah, so many builds, so little inf...
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Originally Posted by Werner
Invulnerability is pretty nice, and Dark Melee/Invulnerability is amazing
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Also with the improvements to the Psionic Resistance IOs you can easily build up a nice chunk of psionic resistance (up to 5 Impervium Armors for 6% each and one Aegis for 5%).
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Invul is nice on scrapper. You should be able to survive most things and have no troubles at all or very rarely against maybe a select few mobs.
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Originally Posted by Simian_Stalker
I don't see many people play invulnerability, but I have been messing with some builds and I am beginning to wonder if invulnerability is the best secondary for scrappers.
Since we can get defense bonuses from IO sets and and invulnerability has a couple of defensive powers it seems easy to build for defense. I built a Katana / Invulnerability character with soft capped S/L and can get soft capped melee with one DA. I also have 72.9 S/L resistance. All other position defenses are in the mid-20s with resistances in the mid-20s or higher as well. What am I missing? |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Do you mean it's not needed only to get to the S/L cap? or not needed to get to Weave for a defense soft cap?
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
As a "consolation" prize of sorts /inv scrappers get a free power pick. Tough isn't needed anymore.
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You can certainly get to the soft cap without Weave, but it will be easier with it. What I think Nihilii means is that most /Inv Scrapper IO builds will reach the S/L Res hard cap even without Tough. |
Originally Posted by zeldo
Do you mean it's not needed only to get to the S/L cap? or not needed to get to Weave for a defense soft cap?
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I haven't checked beta notes in a while so I'm not sure if you can finally pick Weave with just one other power pick from Fighting. That would be great, but even if it isn't the case, you can just use Tough as a mule and save the endurance for something else.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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Yep, that was my point. | you can finally pick Weave with just one other power pick from Fighting |
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They actually did that? That's nice, I have a bunch of characters who will like this.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Yep, that was my point.
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
On Beta right now, still have to have 2 other fighting powers before choosing Weave.
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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This thread is heartening. I semi-retired my SS/Inv brute a couple of years ago because of many of the issues that this thread indicates are no longer issues. 
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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SS/inv is looking to be THE hot ticket for a tanking brute with the upcoming IO changes.|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
This thread is heartening. I semi-retired my SS/Inv brute a couple of years ago because of many of the issues that this thread indicates are no longer issues.
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Luckily, I have a 50 of that exact combo, patiently waiting in the 'to be given deific build' queue.
Invuln tanks don't gain so much on I24. Invuln brutes? Ohmy.
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This is great news. |
Originally Posted by mauk2
SS/inv is looking to be THE hot ticket for a tanking brute with the upcoming IO changes.
Luckily, I have a 50 of that exact combo, patiently waiting in the 'to be given deific build' queue. Invuln tanks don't gain so much on I24. Invuln brutes? Ohmy. |
My SS/Inv is also 50.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Yeah, so many people were claiming it was possible I just assumed they couldn't possibly all be wrong. And I guess everyone thinking the same thing is how the misinformation spreads in the first place. |
Originally Posted by Aurora_Girl
On Beta right now, still have to have 2 other fighting powers before choosing Weave.
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Tanks are already tougher, however, they gain just as much, if not more.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Invuln tanks don't gain so much on I24. Invuln brutes? Ohmy. |
My current Inv/WM Tank sits a softcapped defense to all but psi with 2 enemies in range, 90% resistance to S/L/F/C, 70% resistance to E/N, 50% resistance to Psi and 55% to Toxic.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Whoa. The last time I visited the forums (when Staff Melee came out), I had trouble finding a recent thread on this powerset (let alone one that coupled it with staff).
Good to see it still gets some love. My Staff/Invul is very fun to play despite not being optimized for awesomeness at this point in time. I only play at +2/x8 (non-incarnate) right now and he plows through most enemies with the exception of those darn Carnies.