What do you think of Titan Weapons?


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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post

I strongly dislike "balance by inconvenience" in video games, but to be fair to the devs I suspect it's more the powerset *wasn't* balanced at all...
*shrugs* When the complaint is the set not 'flowing' or feeling choppy/jumpy, I'd say it was a decision of theme as well.

Honestly, what giant weapon would be wielded all smooth and flowing-like? That doesn't sound like rocket hammer or railroad crossing sign at all...


 

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I find it interesting how many people say the set is overpowered. I really don't agree. Yes, in Momentum, it's extremely powerful. However you can't be in momentum all the time.

Build Momentum is a 10 second duration power with a 90 second recharge. At the recharge cap it can be up for 10 seconds and down for 8. Of course I don't really know that a player can get to that kind of recharge without outside buffs (maybe with a proc, but that's a short duration thing). Even if they did the sacrifice in focusing solely on recharge will have its own costs.

A more realistic amount of recharge is around +200 global (and that sure doesn't come cheap). With that you can have the power at 10 seconds up, 12 seconds down. Now granted, you can spend the downtime hopping spawn to spawn in ideal conditions, but if you're focused on a hard target, you're going to have breaks in momentum, and obviously the set is by no means overpowered outside of momentum.

Maybe I don't know the twinking of the set well enough to get how to break the game with it, but I think that while it is a high end set, broken is overstating the case. I actually find war mace to be somewhat comparable without the off and on gimmicky nature.


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Not sure if you're aware of it (the way I read your post it seems you might be saying Build Momentum is the only way to build momentum), but you actually build momentum with any attack, for 5 seconds. Top chains plan around that, only attacking once per ~7s out of momentum save for the eventual miss, and good builds can attain devastating ST damage as well as stellar AoE output. At the high end of the performance spectrum, few other melee powersets can compete with TW in either of these categories, and none in both. It's not like it's bad while leveling either, as you get a cone Divine Avalanche as your level 1 power.

For that matter, even without Momentum TW would probably be a great set - average looking in subpar analysis ignoring radius, but great in actual gameplay for that very reason.


 

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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
Not sure if you're aware of it (the way I read your post it seems you might be saying Build Momentum is the only way to build momentum), but you actually build momentum with any attack, for 5 seconds. Top chains plan around that, only attacking once per ~7s out of momentum save for the eventual miss, and good builds can attain devastating ST damage as well as stellar AoE output. At the high end of the performance spectrum, few other melee powersets can compete with TW in either of these categories, and none in both. It's not like it's bad while leveling either, as you get a cone Divine Avalanche as your level 1 power.

For that matter, even without Momentum TW would probably be a great set - average looking in subpar analysis ignoring radius, but great in actual gameplay for that very reason.
While I do have a couple of TW characters, I have none anywhere close to be twinked out yet. I only kinda really grok how to maximize with momentum, so I am likely missing something. I did just hop over to the pylon thread to see what TW could do, and it does appear I'm wrong. The twinked builds really do some sick DPS. Of course I didn't see how much recharge was required for those. I have to imagine it was plenty high.


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Originally Posted by docbuzzard View Post
I find it interesting how many people say the set is overpowered. I really don't agree. Yes, in Momentum, it's extremely powerful. However you can't be in momentum all the time.

Build Momentum is a 10 second duration power with a 90 second recharge. At the recharge cap it can be up for 10 seconds and down for 8. Of course I don't really know that a player can get to that kind of recharge without outside buffs (maybe with a proc, but that's a short duration thing). Even if they did the sacrifice in focusing solely on recharge will have its own costs.

A more realistic amount of recharge is around +200 global (and that sure doesn't come cheap). With that you can have the power at 10 seconds up, 12 seconds down. Now granted, you can spend the downtime hopping spawn to spawn in ideal conditions, but if you're focused on a hard target, you're going to have breaks in momentum, and obviously the set is by no means overpowered outside of momentum.

Maybe I don't know the twinking of the set well enough to get how to break the game with it, but I think that while it is a high end set, broken is overstating the case. I actually find war mace to be somewhat comparable without the off and on gimmicky nature.
To add to what Nihilii is saying, I ask you how many sets have a 2 second or more attack they fit into their rotation? Kinetic Melee has Concentrated Strike, Fire Melee has Greater Fire Sword, War Mace has Shatter, Claws has Eviscerate...Titan Weapons' momentum is the equivalent of using one of those longer casting powers every 5 seconds in exchange for every attack potentially being among the faster casting attacks.

I say it's kinda-overpowered because, if you consider some that you're not going to escape slow animating attacks no matter what set you go to unless you build for hyper-recharge and only cycle the best and fastest, Momentum is practically ignorable. Every now and then, one swing will just be slower than the rest...it's not a big deal. It's only a big deal if you're inclined to move a lot in combat and from another thread I read on the boards, many players avoid excess movement in combat anyway. Beside that, there is very little downfall to TW's strengths. The thing keeping TW where it's at is the prospect that slow animations = weak and obnoxious. If no one minded TW losing momentum every now and again, I'd bet the non-momentum animations would be stretched to 3 or more seconds or the momentum animations lengthened slightly to bring it more in-line with the other sets.

As is, the animations seem to be barely on the edge of "OMG This set is crappy and slow!" Looking past that, it's actually very powerful.


 

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Originally Posted by docbuzzard View Post
While I do have a couple of TW characters, I have none anywhere close to be twinked out yet. I only kinda really grok how to maximize with momentum, so I am likely missing something. I did just hop over to the pylon thread to see what TW could do, and it does appear I'm wrong. The twinked builds really do some sick DPS. Of course I didn't see how much recharge was required for those. I have to imagine it was plenty high.
And I wouldn't be surprised if many of them used recovery serums or something.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
*shrugs* When the complaint is the set not 'flowing' or feeling choppy/jumpy, I'd say it was a decision of theme as well.

Honestly, what giant weapon would be wielded all smooth and flowing-like? That doesn't sound like rocket hammer or railroad crossing sign at all...
For the record, I never said the set should be changed...
If you love it, fine. To each their own, and have at it.

It isn't required for everyone to think it's the best set ever. I hated the interuptions and the choppiness of the animations. For you that may be a "little roadblock", but for me and a few others it was a deal-breaker... and that's okay. Different preferences and all that.


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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
From what I've heard from the only friend I know that plays an EA scrapper, the taunt aura in Entropic Aura is pitiful.
Well, the in game number values for taunt are vague at best and sometimes not there at all (the scrapper entropic aura doesn't show anything for taunt values) but redtomax shows the following for EA/WP

Scrapper EA:2.25s Mag 3 taunt; WP: 1.25s Mag 3 taunt
Brute EA: 13.65s Mag 3 taunt; WP: 1s Mag3 taunt

entropic aura is on a 2 s tick, RttC is on a 1s tick. So you are right in that scrapper EA taunt at least isn't as strong as shield or invulnerability (both get the same taunt that brute EA has) but its about 80% stronger than willpower. It is enough to cut down on runners as I can attest on my staff/ea scrapper but it won't ever be stealing aggro from brutes or tanks, which is probably a good thing.

EDIT: looking more closely, since RttC ticks twice as fast as EA its taunt might average about the same over time so either of them would work for TW. WP is going to be a lot less clicky though since you expect to hit the heal in EA about every 30-40 seconds. My current TW char is a WP brute.


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Titan Weapon is in no shape or form weak. I've seen its aoe damage potential and it's crazy.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea but it is not a weak set at all.

However, I have several friends who prefer Staff over Titan Weapon. They don't necessarily like something just because something is more powerful stats-wise. They like Staff because of the animation and the overall "feel" of the set.

I won't buy Titan Weapon because Stalker doesn't have it. Fine! Saves me money. :P


What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

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Add me to the "not my thing" group, specifically for the feel before getting any momentum built up. I know it's supposed to be perception vs. numbers, but - I just don't like the "feel" of the set.

*shrug*

Others do, so hey, they can have fun while I go control something or hit it with a stick.


 

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I'm running a 35 TW/EA brute with the Iron Eagles and he's a lot of fun. I'm one of those people that can live with the momentum mechanic, although I certainly do everything I can to minimize the slowness. Build Momentum is definitely your friend there. As is Energy Drain to keep the blue bar going. So far he hasn't really come near dying when soloing +0/x3, although there's been a few close calls on teams when multiple bosses take an interest in smacking him. Not yet to the cap level of defense.


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I really enjoy my Ice/Titan Tanker. I admit that it was a little rough until I picked up a decent attack chain. It became really nasty once I grabbed Energy Absorption. Now I'm running around cackling as I encounter large groups to mow down while stealing their Endurance to further fuel my rampage. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I don't mind the momentum mechanic, especially since I'm a notable aggro-magnet and have a couple nice auras. Sometimes when soloing, I'll just stop and watch the last couple of enemies start to flee, then get drawn back in, slowed and damaged, and sent briefly fleeing again until they drop. It amuses me.

With good endurance management- your own or a teammate's assistance, you can throw out ludicrously good damage. An SG mate took a Titan/Will Brute through Ray Cooling's arc solo and dropped the Kronos Titan in less than two minutes, for example. That character struggled early on and nearly was deleted, but the player held off until a few key powers became available.

tl;dr- it's a late bloomer and takes a few adjustments, but for those who get the hang of it, it can be a very fun and effective set.


 

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Some friends and I are coming back from a long absence and we're going to make new toons. I'm definitely going with Titan Weapons and I'm leaning toward Willpower (I might consider Invul).

Should I go scrapper, brute or tank?

Thoughts?


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
So to those that can't stand momentum, I'm curious what alternative would work for you?
I'm currently leveling a Titan Weapons/Fiery Aura Brute to get a feel for TW and while I can't say I loathe Momentum, it does at times get annoying.

The way I'd change it is:
  • Reduce the amount of time Momentum stays on you.
This could be something like [Animation time + 1.5 seconds]. That way if you swing your sword, you have a 1.5 second chunk of time where you can use another TW attack and get Momentum boosted animation time.
  • Remove the automatic downtime of Momentum.
This means that if you keep attacking using TW attacks (except Follow Through or Whirling Smash), you'll never drop out of Momentum boosted animation times.
  • Using any power other than a TW power will automatically drop you out of Momentum.
Pretty self-explanatory. While I am swinging my blade/club/sign the momentum stays, but if I stop to use Healing Flames I lose Momentum and am forced to build it back again.
  • Follow Through and Whirling Smash would 'use' Momentum.
These two powers require Momentum in order to be used. Right now it is just an 'on-off' mechanic, but in this version these powers can only be used in Momentum and then consume the Momentum when used so your next TW attack is forced to build it back again.


To reiterate, I'd find these mechanics to be a bit more enjoyable, but overall I'm not put-off by Momentum enough to drop the character.


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Originally Posted by Jetpack View Post
I took a few months off, so my current knowledge isn't the best, and my SearchFu stinks.

What is the general impression of Titan Weapons? Best for a Brute? Any particular secondaries to pair with it?

Thanks!
(My opinions are based on level 50+ content and builds with IOs and Incarnate slots unlocked. If you're looking for a level-up opinion, just skip this)

I have two Titan Weapons brutes and I love them both very much.

I have a TW/Elec and a TW/Fire. If I had to say which has more survivability, I would go with the TW/Elec. Not to say that my TW/Fire dies a lot, because it doesn't, I just think that the TW/Elec dies less. (In reference to 50+ content)

TW/Fire is a monster at AOE damage. Extra recharge from Luck of the Gambler 7.5%s definitely help with Build Momentum coming up quickly.

Oh, TW itself is very endurance heavy so you will need ways to mitigate that. Elec's +end power (I forget the name) has a decent base recharge and gets better with slotting. You also get an endurance discount every time you use Energize. Fire has Consume, which is on a higher recharge time. For my TW/Fire, I opted to go with the Cardiac Alpha for the global endurance reduction. That, plus Consume, basically made my endurance problems vanish.

tl;dr version

TW/Elec = more robust build/durable, less damage (compared to Fire)
TW/Fire = awesome AoE damage (Burn ftw), a little squishier than Elec

Both of my brutes are rocking around 50% Smashing/Lethal defense, in addition to their respective capped resistances (fire, elec).


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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka View Post
Titan Weapon/Energy Aura brute with Ageless Destiny + Hasten. Oh god.

Oh god. I am always at 95% fury.
Is hasten really that useful for TW? I have it on my Ice/TW Tanker and it seems so meh.


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Originally Posted by Computer View Post
I'm currently leveling a Titan Weapons/Fiery Aura Brute to get a feel for TW and while I can't say I loathe Momentum, it does at times get annoying.

The way I'd change it is:
  • Reduce the amount of time Momentum stays on you.
This could be something like [Animation time + 1.5 seconds]. That way if you swing your sword, you have a 1.5 second chunk of time where you can use another TW attack and get Momentum boosted animation time.
  • Remove the automatic downtime of Momentum.
This means that if you keep attacking using TW attacks (except Follow Through or Whirling Smash), you'll never drop out of Momentum boosted animation times.
  • Using any power other than a TW power will automatically drop you out of Momentum.
Pretty self-explanatory. While I am swinging my blade/club/sign the momentum stays, but if I stop to use Healing Flames I lose Momentum and am forced to build it back again.
  • Follow Through and Whirling Smash would 'use' Momentum.
These two powers require Momentum in order to be used. Right now it is just an 'on-off' mechanic, but in this version these powers can only be used in Momentum and then consume the Momentum when used so your next TW attack is forced to build it back again.


To reiterate, I'd find these mechanics to be a bit more enjoyable, but overall I'm not put-off by Momentum enough to drop the character.
If I'm not mistaken, those attacks did 'spend' momentum at one point but it was deemed more troublesome by the players. Not quite sure I'm remembering things right though, I do recall the way the momentum powers working was changed. But there was always a 'momentum period' within an attack cycle, mind you, so it wasn't exactly like you point out.

The only issue I have with your direction is it'd disproportionately reward recharge buffs...that is, *more* disproportionately than it already does. Not only that, but knockback and general movement would be more of a penalization than it is. Melees already cry about people knocking their foes away, this would add even more fuel to that fire.

Just pointing out personal observations about your position...


 

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Originally Posted by KidDiscordia View Post
Is hasten really that useful for TW? I have it on my Ice/TW Tanker and it seems so meh.
Love it on Meteor Hammer: TW/FA brute, which has a FF proc in all AOE's. That monster just bellows all kinds of death. Tools are up w/e I need them. Redraw doent matter when things are burning (the last move I do after I spend momentum, so I'll be moving slow anyway). I focused on getting ranged def as high as possible since KD and the +def mitigate most melee problems. Staying power is just fun. I run out of baddies before endurance (with help from my secondary and cardiac core).

Build w/e you think will be fun.


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Originally Posted by KidDiscordia View Post
Is hasten really that useful for TW? I have it on my Ice/TW Tanker and it seems so meh.
I'd go as far to say it being necessary for TW. More rchg, means easier cycling of your best attacks in your momentum cycle.


 

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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
I'd go as far to say it being necessary for TW.
Hasten is nice but never necessary. I don't use it in my TW build and it's still a monster.


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