Wonder if the Developers plays in PVP???
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2012-04-25 07:59 in Everything about PvP
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I agree under current circumstances reverting to i12 PvP would be daft, but the least LEAST they can do, thats going to take very little of their time is remove TS from zones. (And HD)|
Originally Posted by The Katalyst
Well, that's exactly what a test server is supposed to be for, so I can understand that to some degree. Testing on a test server is always going to take priority over actually "playing" the game.
I disagree that just reverting to pre-i13 mechanics is the answer, if they even ever get around to an answer at all (which is unlikely). Too many things have changed since then, for example, incarnates. Un-DR'd incarnates would be a nightmare for PvP balance. There are more examples, but it's not enough to retcon the entire system at this point. That is of course, likely a hypothetical argument, which I have raised many times. Chances are it doesn't matter either way since nothing will be done either way, but that's how I feel about "just revert to i12." Lest we forget pre 13 PvP had plenty of issues as well. |
You say pre i13 PvP had plenty of issues but it was still a much much more fun version of what we have now.
I cannot believe people are crying about proc'd out flares... has no comparison to prei13 600dmg Blaze.
@Psycho Jas
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Well yeah, that goes without saying. pre13 was obviously more fun for a lot of people then post, but it certainly had plenty of balance issues and crappy mechanics. The 600 damage blaze is a good example of that.|
Originally Posted by SoulTouch
I agree under current circumstances reverting to i12 PvP would be daft, but the least LEAST they can do, thats going to take very little of their time is remove TS from zones. (And HD)
You say pre i13 PvP had plenty of issues but it was still a much much more fun version of what we have now. I cannot believe people are crying about proc'd out flares... has no comparison to prei13 600dmg Blaze. |
One thing I think people forget too is that there were plenty of PvPers back then supporting some major changes to PvP, but obviously that didn't turn out so hot. PvP was already on the down-trend back then, i13 just put a pre-mature nail in that coffin. They would have had to do something eventually, unfortunately their answer was not a good one.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
I guess I can understand where the Dev's are coming from. If you have work to do and I am sure someone else is dictating what is on the priority lists... then you just have to focus on what your job is.
That said, here is some food for thought:
1. Post i13 there was a mass exit of players who really only played because of PvP. A customer is a customer and I would think that a company should be looking to satisfy ALL their customers. There really is truth that the game is mostly PvE now because most of the PvP'rs quit.
2. I play this game for the sole purpose of PvP. I actually find having to grind through the PvE content annoying. Its much less annoying when running with some buddy's and shooting the breeze on Skype but still annoying. And I know for a fact that I am not the only one that feels this.
3. Farms... quick track to level 50... I honestly can not think of ANY reason to even WANT to farm your toon so fast other than to get a fast 50 for.... you guessed it! PvP! and yet there is SO much farming going on. "Things that make you go hmmmmm"
4. I *COULD* just go play another game. Why don't I? I guess because I am just set in my ways and once I get used to doing something a certain way I get resistant to change. So I stick with CoH for now. While there could be some improvements to both the PvP and PvE aspects of the game, it still works and is entertaining. Just because it doesn't work the way WE want it to doesn't mean it can't be fun. And plus now it can even be played for free so being as broke as I am I can still escape reality and don't have to drain my pocket to do it... and who ever came up with that model I can't thank them enough!!!! Its the perfect balance of either playing for free and getting stuff like badge hunting out of the way, springing $5 for points to buy an IO and Auction house license and being full out VIP when I can.
Just turn off Travel Suppression and Heal Decay.
It will make more people PVP. More people pvping = more justification for future changes.
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Just revert Castle's changes. Simple, most elegant. least-time consuming solution to "fixing" PVP.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Just turn off Travel Suppression and Heal Decay.
It will make more people PVP. More people pvping = more justification for future changes. |
...and sell PvP permits to justify any work the Dev need to do to add PvP. JK. oh no.... hope they don't do that.
Check out this!!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/LastRoninCoH/featured
Well, my two cents on the matter. I don't know about reverting it back to Issue-12 status of PVP, presently the Incarnate Abilities has added much change alone. To revert it back may result to "NO Incarnates Powers Active", or how will that work within that time of game/CoH mechanics for pre Issue-12. So with that being said, how can that be possible? There are still 5 more Incarnates that are not yet available (although, Hybrid will be available next, Issue-23). My other question is will those 5 new Incarnates imply changes as well that may reduce a few of those post, Issue-13 effects like, Travel Suppression and Heal Decay? Incarnate Hybrid abilities seem to be pretty solid by adding four types of additional buffs like, assault, control, melee and support which too, can add much nice changes to the PVP world as well.
Honestly, I think the changes made post Issue-13 were made because of the new coming and planned changes to PVE such as Incarnates and so forth. I must admit, it is getting much more interesting.
Killing off travel suppression and heal Decay would be great.
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Originally Posted by Helluva_Goon
Well, my two cents on the matter. I don't know about reverting it back to Issue-12 status of PVP, presently the Incarnate Abilities has added much change alone. To revert it back may result to "NO Incarnates Powers Active", or how will that work within that time of game/CoH mechanics for pre Issue-12. So with that being said, how can that be possible? There are still 5 more Incarnates that are not yet available (although, Hybrid will be available next, Issue-23). My other question is will those 5 new Incarnates imply changes as well that may reduce a few of those post, Issue-13 effects like, Travel Suppression and Heal Decay? Incarnate Hybrid abilities seem to be pretty solid by adding four types of additional buffs like, assault, control, melee and support which too, can add much nice changes to the PVP world as well.
Honestly, I think the changes made post Issue-13 were made because of the new coming and planned changes to PVE such as Incarnates and so forth. I must admit, it is getting much more interesting. Killing off travel suppression and heal Decay would be great. |
The majority of PvPers hate doing incarnate trials.
Disabling incarnate powers would mean characters could be built faster and easier, resulting in more diversity. Every PvPer wants more PvP toons so they can try different tactics. The problem is that ontop of money and accolades, they need to grind a ton of incarnate to get their character where they want it to be.
I have a list of 20 PvP toons I want to create.
The more unique ones are near the end of the list, the more FotM combos are near the front. This is the norm for PvPers.
Unfortunately another common situation for those PvPers, I personally will never get there because of Incarnate grinding. Influence isn't a problem for me, and for a lot of others have their ways as well, and we've all been getting accolades to the point where many of us can get a handful of them in a couple of hours.
Incarate trials are the limiting reactant for many PvPers. If people were given unlimited components for Incarnate (like on test), their would be more and different kinds of characters in RV. Instead of a new character every couple of weeks, a new character in several days would be possible.
A big problem with the current PvP system is the great amount of investment necessary before hand just to have your -character- viable in PvP.
If they were to revert the i13 changes, I would hope they would also disable Incarnate, simply for that reason.
Also, why don't we PvP on test? Unlimited Superpacks, unlimited influence, unlimited incarnate. I know a lot of people did in the past, but I'm not quite sure what went wrong. It wouldn't be too hard to set up some RV nights on test. Those who don't want to do extra work can just transfer their toons.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
PVP doesn't need a lot of time investment to make it work in this game, because of the diversity of power set combinations, power pools, epics, and incarnate powers. You can fill most gaps using power choices, but also IO set bonues, and procs.
PVP just need some global tweaks like travel suppression and heal decay to be toned down.
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The logic has been applied many times in the past as to "Why don't we just go to test to PvP" the last 4 ish leagues that have been run you had a small portion of the population who has used test before saying "Hey guys, lets go there, equal builds for everyone, cross server pvp, no need for transfers" Yet every time you see dozens of posts "I don't want too" with no real reason.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
Also, why don't we PvP on test? Unlimited Superpacks, unlimited influence, unlimited incarnate. I know a lot of people did in the past, but I'm not quite sure what went wrong. It wouldn't be too hard to set up some RV nights on test. Those who don't want to do extra work can just transfer their toons. |
The last real attempt at a test league fielded 2 and a half teams/rosters, I say half because while 2 or 3 others attempted none ever really followed through. Yet the last few freedom leagues usually had upwards of 5 or 6 teams in them at the start.
I've seen people in the bast blame the development team for not wanting to pvp there, which they have a small case for (The dev team also has a case for using test to test stuff). Now though? We have test and beta.
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Heal decay has been gone with the advent of incandescence.
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Originally Posted by Helluva_Goon
Killing off travel suppression and heal Decay would be great. |
Once again, why have the Devs do the work?
If you open up an AE style interface for PvP where the players can make maps and adjust powers then the PLAYERS would balance it.
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
They could turn off TS/DR/HD/Squishy Res/New mez system on the test server and say they're testing it. That would mean they get everything they want (testing), while all the PvPers would just go there for PvP from now on.
In fact I can't think of a single reason they haven't done that. That bypasses all their concerns. If they say it's simply for testing, they don't need to attend to it at all. The PvP community would then choose themselves whether they'd want to PvP on the test server or the real servers. They would finally give PvPers what they've been asking for all these years while having 0 responsibility to change or fix anything because it's just on the test server. I have a list of people I'm supposed to email if they change PvP back to how it was. If they did this on test, they have 0 responsibility and will get accounts back. Any flaws with this idea? |
Just one. They wouldn't be able to test how the new powers actually worked in PvP on the live servers before they went live. Any information the Devs got concerning new powers would be limited only to how they interacted with pre-issue 13 mechanics and would be useless for making necessary changes for live servers. It's nice to think that it wouldn't matter since people would only PvP on test, but that's probably unrealistic.
There isn't much reason to change anything right now as far as I can tell.(And I pvp a lot.)
With the huge changes being discussed concerning procs, as well as the incarnates coming out, changes would possibly have to be reverted and modified to accommodate them. Like Zwilliger said earlier, making pvp changes will most likely not be anywhere near the top of the devs list for a good while given the things I just mentioned and the issues that will surely come with them.
As far as reverting to pre i13, that would absolutely massacre pvp in the games current state. IOs alone make DR necessary (then add in incarnates)... Fighting 80% defense tanks and 70% resistance/defense ranged toons would be enough for me to consider throwing in the pvp towel.
The option was mentioned to remove incarnates from pvp to increase variation, however, I believe that would end up decreasing variety in builds. Builds that were overlooked due to having a huge weakness (ex. SR missing a heal), can now compensate with incarnates to make them an option.
As it is, I think pvp is in the best place it can be (TS is up for discussion). If you don't like the current pvp, well, you better get used to it as pvp changes (not counting the affects of incarnates and possible new procs might have), will probably not be happening soon.
Something you have to keep in mind with fighting 80% defense tanks or whatever is : to hit is slammed by DR. Powerboosted fort and Powerboost Aim/Build up at a time would completely shred defenses.
The real problem you'd run into is debuffs being no longer resisted on the defender side of things. So all the res capped toons would take more debuffs than usual to take down to reasonable levels.
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The dev team is certainly responsible for a lot of things wrong with PvP, but players simply unwilling to go the extra mile to make the most out of the game is not one of them. For as much ******** as PvPers tend to do, very few of them are willing to actually do anything besides derp around Freedom RV all day.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
The logic has been applied many times in the past as to "Why don't we just go to test to PvP" the last 4 ish leagues that have been run you had a small portion of the population who has used test before saying "Hey guys, lets go there, equal builds for everyone, cross server pvp, no need for transfers" Yet every time you see dozens of posts "I don't want too" with no real reason.
The last real attempt at a test league fielded 2 and a half teams/rosters, I say half because while 2 or 3 others attempted none ever really followed through. Yet the last few freedom leagues usually had upwards of 5 or 6 teams in them at the start. I've seen people in the bast blame the development team for not wanting to pvp there, which they have a small case for (The dev team also has a case for using test to test stuff). Now though? We have test and beta. |
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
What ever happened to the pvp developer they hired? The guy who showed up in Pocket D and said "guess what guys we are adding perception to the cameras in arena! Isn't that cool?" Ten minutes of being called various forms of massingal he said "but..it was on the pvp wish list".....you know the one stickied in i9 and never unstickied?
ps the devs are on twitter...so fun to see how fast you get blocked.
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As someone who quit playing PVP after i13 all I have to say to this is thank you for being honest and transparent about what a great many of us have been saying for years now. PVP isn't a BUSINESS priority for the dev team. I may not like that, but if its true, I can live with it.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
There is no lack of desire to do something, anything, with PVP. There is a difficulty proving that it's better to work on PVP over a new Powerset.
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
Disabling incarnate powers would mean characters could be built faster and easier, resulting in more diversity. Every PvPer wants more PvP toons so they can try different tactics. The problem is that ontop of money and accolades, they need to grind a ton of incarnate to get their character where they want it to be. |
I call bs . They won't even let you ASK about pvp in the conferences..it's taboo.
Seriously they can tack on all the crap the want on this game and create 100 new powersets which are all just based off the original powersets with different animations..throw out more incarnates...but in the end - in a game that is based on supervillians and superheroes if you don't create a viable pvp environment you're doomed.
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It hasn't "doomed" CoX yet so you are clearly wrong. And so what if the game disappears in another year or so? A MMO with a 9+ year run can hardly be classified as a failure by anyone in the industry.
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Originally Posted by fur_nes
Seriously they can tack on all the crap the want on this game and create 100 new powersets which are all just based off the original powersets with different animations..throw out more incarnates...but in the end - in a game that is based on supervillians and superheroes if you don't create a viable pvp environment you're doomed.
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I'm not sure I can agree with this. Events were being run across servers regularly after the arena hit in i4. PvP has existed for a majority of this game's lifespan, test server was active for years, even after i13 changed up the rules for how we PvPed.|
Originally Posted by The Katalyst
The dev team is certainly responsible for a lot of things wrong with PvP, but players simply unwilling to go the extra mile to make the most out of the game is not one of them. For as much ******** as PvPers tend to do, very few of them are willing to actually do anything besides derp around Freedom RV all day.
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A lot of players have fretted on the forums, argued and complained, but we've also put a lot of work into analyzing many of the problems that we were having in order to fix them.
Do you not remember the constant posts we were making concerning arena crashes per Ex Libris' request so that we could alleviate that problem? What about the PvP leagues held on Infinity, Champion and Freedom? Lethal Lotteries? Lethal Lottery 2v2s? Iron Man Tourneys?
Maybe you don't remember that stuff, but I certainly do. If that isn't the playerbase getting active and making the most of a system that honestly feels like it was cast aside from the get-go, I don't know what is.
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add in the full scale pvp events cross server in the zones - Where the devs brought in the avs and the community leaders teamed with the players..|
Originally Posted by vindizzLe
I'm not sure I can agree with this. Events were being run across servers regularly after the arena hit in i4. PvP has existed for a majority of this game's lifespan, test server was active for years, even after i13 changed up the rules for how we PvPed.
A lot of players have fretted on the forums, argued and complained, but we've also put a lot of work into analyzing many of the problems that we were having in order to fix them. Do you not remember the constant posts were making concerning arena crashes per Ex Libris' request so that we could alleviate that problem? What about the PvP leagues held on Infinity, Champion and Freedom? Lethal Lotteries? Lethal Lottery 2v2s? Iron Man Tourneys? Maybe you don't remember that stuff, but I certainly do. If that isn't the playerbase getting active and making the most of a system that honestly feels like it was cast aside from the get-go, I don't know what is. |
Rift putting on a pvp PR event in Pocket D where the top tier teams did exhibition matches.
The whole pvpec putting together the ladder and ranking system for the test teams...and then meeting and running monthly events on each server. The Test PVP League that incorporated all the servers and ran a full scale league on test to get new players in pvp....plus all the separate villain team activity...
so +1 with Vindizzle
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I'm speaking more in terms of the present then the past. There have always been those willing to go the extra mile to try and get things done, but that type of player is not that common in CoH anymore.|
Originally Posted by vindizzLe
I'm not sure I can agree with this. Events were being run across servers regularly after the arena hit in i4. PvP has existed for a majority of this game's lifespan, test server was active for years, even after i13 changed up the rules for how we PvPed.
A lot of players have fretted on the forums, argued and complained, but we've also put a lot of work into analyzing many of the problems that we were having in order to fix them. Do you not remember the constant posts we were making concerning arena crashes per Ex Libris' request so that we could alleviate that problem? What about the PvP leagues held on Infinity, Champion and Freedom? Lethal Lotteries? Lethal Lottery 2v2s? Iron Man Tourneys? Maybe you don't remember that stuff, but I certainly do. If that isn't the playerbase getting active and making the most of a system that honestly feels like it was cast aside from the get-go, I don't know what is. |
Not that I blame people for giving up. It's been fairly clear for a long time that nothing is likely to change. Giving up is the rational/logical thing to do at this point, and it has been for a long time.
Also, I think the things you are talking about were far more common pre-i13. The interest level in PvP obviously went down after i13. The flaws in the system are a fault of the developers, I'm not disputing that.
What I was talking about more then anything were the types of people who sit around in RV/AC all day and QQ about how bad CoH PvP is (it is, but that's not the point) but are unwilling to get in on casual arena events and that type of thing. CoH PvP can be fun to some degree, but you have to be willing to do more then base-sit in RV all day.
In any event, it's a moot point. I'm just rambling now. You either accept the game is what it is at this point, and try and make the best out of it, or quit.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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Start another league please
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Originally Posted by The Katalyst
I'm speaking more in terms of the present then the past. There have always been those willing to go the extra mile to try and get things done, but that type of player is not that common in CoH anymore.
Not that I blame people for giving up. It's been fairly clear for a long time that nothing is likely to change. Giving up is the rational/logical thing to do at this point, and it has been for a long time. Also, I think the things you are talking about were far more common pre-i13. The interest level in PvP obviously went down after i13. The flaws in the system are a fault of the developers, I'm not disputing that. What I was talking about more then anything were the types of people who sit around in RV/AC all day and QQ about how bad CoH PvP is (it is, but that's not the point) but are unwilling to get in on casual arena events and that type of thing. CoH PvP can be fun to some degree, but you have to be willing to do more then base-sit in RV all day. In any event, it's a moot point. I'm just rambling now. You either accept the game is what it is at this point, and try and make the best out of it, or quit. |
@Psycho Jas
But seriously, if you remember, pretty much all PvP used to be done in the test server. But the devs never supported it. They knew about it. In fact, they knew that it was known as pretty much the "official PvP server" among the community. But they refused to support it as such. In fact, on many occasions, they specifically released changes that took the server down on the exact same night as important PvP matches were scheduled (which they knew about).
I think they simply don't want people to PLAY on the test server. They want all playing to be done on live. So they will never support the idea of the test server being THE place to play. To them, it's purely for testing and finding bugs, nothing else.
I disagree that just reverting to pre-i13 mechanics is the answer, if they even ever get around to an answer at all (which is unlikely). Too many things have changed since then, for example, incarnates. Un-DR'd incarnates would be a nightmare for PvP balance. There are more examples, but it's not enough to retcon the entire system at this point.
That is of course, likely a hypothetical argument, which I have raised many times. Chances are it doesn't matter either way since nothing will be done either way, but that's how I feel about "just revert to i12." Lest we forget pre 13 PvP had plenty of issues as well.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.