I've got a Kin/Archery Defender which I have sofcapped to Smashing, Lethal, Energy (using Scorpion Shiled) which I quite enjoy. On a team you're a force multiplier with some heavy hitting attacks (Rain of Arrows, Fire Arrow) which pack a punch after you have fulcrum shifted.
While solo being soft capped helps a lot as I can jump into mobs buff up and let loose with the AoEs
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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I will second the archery/kin (or kin/archery)
the only kin I can enjoy and the only archery I can enjoy
You might also consider Kin/Rad. It's flashy and the powers look good in a variety of colors, and the -Def helps your Kin powers to land.
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Thanks for the replies...
Any thoughts as to which is better for Kinetics - Corruptor or Defender? I can never decide, and the higher buff numbers and the solo damage bonus make me tend to lean towards a Defender over a Cor generally because I so rarely see that Scourge message...
-H
2 more thoughts for you.
1) Kin/Ice defender - Not all that flashy but blizzard doesn't get reduced by the defender mods. Fulcrum Shift + Ice Storm + Blizzard is a thing of beauty. A quick CaB and Transference and you are ready to start on the next spawn while the previous one finishes dying.
2) Fire/Kin controller - There's good reason that this was the ultimate farming build for a loooong time. It's flashy. It's relatively safe. It's extremely powerful. The only issue is that it's slow to level solo unless you slot the hold, single target Immob, and a Pool attack for damage. Proccing out Fire Cages is helpful too.
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solo - defender is better. You get a solo damage buff that is nice
team - corr does better damage. The defender loses their solo damage buff, and scourge is more useful. The defender does get some slightly better buffs/debuffs
Kinetics runs afoul of two major difficulties:
1. You don't have much time for your other power set.
2. Your team only needs one.
The first tends to favor Controllers, who simply let their pets do the damage. Unfortunately, builds such as Fire/Kin have been falling out of favor because it's relatively difficult to keep the pets alive in tougher environments and Speed Boost no longer works on pets.
The first also disfavors Corruptors. If you simply flip a Corruptor */Kinetics build to a Defender, you get a build that also matures much faster but does essentially the same damage because you need to spend less time activating Kinetics powers and can spend more time nuking.
The second one favors Defenders. A single Kinetics Defender is all the Kinetics any team/league really needs. A single Kinetics Corruptor/Controller is about 75% of what they'd like and if you bring a second Kinetics, you'll be wasting most of the value of that second player's set.
Kinetics is far and away the most powerful buff/debuff set, so you can pair it with anything and you'll still have a pretty powerful build. However, it is actually synergistic with very little - playing anything with Kinetics means you're primarily a Kinetics with some other powers you use from time to time.
Which Kin?
ALL THE KINS!
That said, I've really enjoyed my /Kin Controllers. I've got a Grav/Kin, which mesh together so well I'm almost positive that's what the original developers intended. I've also got a Fire/Kin, which was the original FOTM (Flavor of the Month) build for farming before Inventions were released in i9 and STILL powerful as hell now. I also have an Elec/Kin, which is fantastic for depleting your foes' endurance bars and keeping them floored.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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The majority of fire/kin troller aoe dps does not come from fire imps. Also, speed boost no longer buffs rchg, but it still buffs the runspd of pets, which for fire imps is all they really need.|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
The first tends to favor Controllers, who simply let their pets do the damage. Unfortunately, builds such as Fire/Kin have been falling out of favor because it's relatively difficult to keep the pets alive in tougher environments and Speed Boost no longer works on pets.
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| The first also disfavors Corruptors. If you simply flip a Corruptor */Kinetics build to a Defender, you get a build that also matures much faster but does essentially the same damage because you need to spend less time activating Kinetics powers and can spend more time nuking. |
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| The second one favors Defenders. A single Kinetics Defender is all the Kinetics any team/league really needs. A single Kinetics Corruptor/Controller is about 75% of what they'd like and if you bring a second Kinetics, you'll be wasting most of the value of that second player's set. |
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I had similar issues finding a Kin that I liked. It wasn't so much about effectiveness as finding something with a playstyle that I enjoyed. After several characters I finally settled on a Dark/Kin corr and love it, but flashy it is not. YMMV.|
Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
I am struggling with a Kin concept and am looking for forumite thoughts on the issue.
I've tried playing a Kin for a long time now and the highest I got without deleting was an Energy/Kin Corruptor (42)... |
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Originally Posted by Beauregard
Kinetics runs afoul of two major difficulties:
1. You don't have much time for your other power set. 2. Your team only needs one. The first tends to favor Controllers, who simply let their pets do the damage. Unfortunately, builds such as Fire/Kin have been falling out of favor because it's relatively difficult to keep the pets alive in tougher environments and Speed Boost no longer works on pets. The first also disfavors Corruptors. If you simply flip a Corruptor */Kinetics build to a Defender, you get a build that also matures much faster but does essentially the same damage because you need to spend less time activating Kinetics powers and can spend more time nuking. The second one favors Defenders. A single Kinetics Defender is all the Kinetics any team/league really needs. A single Kinetics Corruptor/Controller is about 75% of what they'd like and if you bring a second Kinetics, you'll be wasting most of the value of that second player's set. Kinetics is far and away the most powerful buff/debuff set, so you can pair it with anything and you'll still have a pretty powerful build. However, it is actually synergistic with very little - playing anything with Kinetics means you're primarily a Kinetics with some other powers you use from time to time. |
I'm not trying to be offensive here, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.
1) I've played several troller/def/corr kins and never have had problems finding time to use my other powerset.
2) Your team doesn't need any Kins, but having more than one certainly won't hurt. No player is perfect, and everyone isn't always in position to be buffed; also there isn't always a big spawn around throw FS at. More than one Kin will increase the chances that the team stays damage capped all the time.
3) Controllers haven't done most of their damage through pets since Issue 4.
4) My corr doesn't spend less time using Kin powers than my def. I use the Kin stuff first then spend the rest of the time blasting. Its the same either way.
5) One Kin def/corr can damage cap the team; neither has significant advantage there. The def will do slightly better on the other buffs/heals, but not so its noticeable. The corr will do noticeably more personal damage due to a higher damage cap.
6) Kin is a great set, but calling it the most powerful buff/debuff set is absurd given its relative lack of debuffs. Define your metric. Personally I'd take Cold over Kin on most teams; the living out-damage the dead.
7) Kin has powerful offense, but is fragile; it synergises well with sets that provide significant mitigation of some kind (part of the reason I like it with Dark).
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Yeaaaah. As someone who has played both a Kin/Rad Defender and a Rad/Kin Corruptor both of these are completely and 100% false.|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
Kinetics runs afoul of two major difficulties:
1. You don't have much time for your other power set. 2. Your team only needs one. |
You spend just as much time using your other set as everyone else does, and there's this nifty little thing in the game called stacking buffs.
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
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Just a comment on your failed fire/kin attempt: lvl 20 isn't really giving it a fair shot. It's a late blooming combo, getting the pets at 32 helps a bunch, fulcrum shift at 35 (and slotted asap) makes it feel like a different animal. Even a halfway decent IO build is yet another step towards beastliness.
kin used to be a speed boost buff bot, before they changed how buffs work
now kin is a lot more active than a FF, but not ridiculously active
Sorry you didn't like your Kin/Elec Fender. I ran a Elec/Kin Corr; solo was a grind at times but the sapping was siiiick! (and the semi-crashless nuke didn't hurt either).
I would suggest trying out both the Dark/Kin (Fire/Mu/Stone) Controller and Dark/Kin (Dark/Power) Corr.
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Truth. Though they certainly help, both in that they do damage on their own AND they take aggro that would otherwise be targetted at you.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
The majority of fire/kin troller aoe dps does not come from fire imps.
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I have three kins total in the cities. My first venture into Kinetics was a kin/elec defender. Bleh... Damage was meh, and the sapping from the secondary wasn't as great as I had imagined. Still a solid team player, but really a buff bot at times. (this was well before AoE SB!)
2nd venture in was a fire/kin corr. This blew my defender out of the water. So much destruction and support rolled into a nice package. I still have fun playing her, even though she doesn't get much attention these days. The damage never disappoints on this toon.
3rd venture was a dual pistols/kin corr. This one ended up being a huge blast. Yes, the damage was down a notable step from the fire/kin corr, but I still enjoy the animations pretty thoroughly. Also, something about a fast recharging crashless nuke that is self buffed with FS is just... right.
If you can deal with the animations of dp and the so so damage, consider this. I had a blast all the way to 50 and beyond. No, the swap ammo options are not as useful as you might think, but I do find it fun to roll between different ammo types to feel like you are "debuffing".
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Out of the options you mentioned, I would probably roll fire/kin troller.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
I have nearly 300 levels of Kinetics spread across Defenders, Corrupters and Controllers.
For solo play, Kinetics is a rough choice for Corrs and Defs. The heal, damage boosting and sapping aren't as much mitigation as more solo friendly sets like Rad or Storm. I'm sure it can be done but it's not something I associate with the set. This impacts defenders slightly more due to their bonuses while soloing.
Defenders get Speed Boost, Transference and FS A LOT earlier in their careers. Prior to SB, Kinetics is a bit lackluster for a buff set; ranged damage types have a particularly hard time deriving benefit from it since the Kin heal is centered on an opponent. If your goal is to make a team better, it happens sooner with a Defender. Experienced players LOVE Kins the way newbies love Empaths and you'll get that love earlier on a Defender.
On the other hand, above level 30 or so, my defender experience is usually longing for Scourge or Controller powers instead of plinky defender damage (FS does alter one's perception of "plinky", but in comparison to teammates it still is). Almost no one is going to notice that you're delivering a little extra smashing resist with your Increase Density or healing a few more points with Transfusion, because your SB and FS are subjectively about the same for Controllers and Corrs as Defender.
I found Archery particularly rough, since my damage-capped teammates were slaughtering things long before my RoA landed. Not a lot of synergy there. Radiation attacks work quite well because it has a decent number and types of AoEs and quick-animating powers while Ice has its nifty bonus in the Blaster-class nuke and Fire is, well, Fire. I've seen Kin/Elec sappers do good work, but sapping itself sometimes seems to have questionable utility since many foes seem to be able to attack without much endurance.
All in all I think I'd prefer a Corr or Controller unless I knew I was going to be in a dedicated group, and probably a Corr above a Controller because of Scourge and the high probability of working at or near your damage cap.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
2) Fire/Kin controller - There's good reason that this was the ultimate farming build for a loooong time. It's flashy. It's relatively safe. It's extremely powerful. The only issue is that it's slow to level solo unless you slot the hold, single target Immob, and a Pool attack for damage. Proccing out Fire Cages is helpful too.
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Did you even read the OP?
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Originally Posted by magikwand
Out of the options you mentioned, I would probably roll fire/kin troller.
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I would (almost) never roll a Kinetics Defender over a Corruptor. Corruptors have higher base damages, a higher damage cap, and Scourge. A Kinetics Corruptor can still damage cap themselves solo, even with their slightly lower buff modifiers, meaning they will be doing *way* more damage than a Defender, who's solo damage buff from Vigilance is meaningless to a Kin.
Corruptor damage scale of 0.75 * 5.0 (damage cap of +400%) = 3.75. I've read that testing indicates over the long-term that Scourge is about a 17% increase in total damage dealt on average. Factoring that in, you've got a total damage scale of 4.3875.
Defender damage scale of 0.65 * 4.0 (damage cap of +300%) = 2.6. That's a big, big difference.
The only time I'd ever go Defender over Corruptor for Kinetics would be to do Kin/Sonic, foregoing personal damage to instead be the best team damage amplifier in the game.
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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You've just convinced me to reroll a level 30 Kin/Fire defender that I have. The only thing I will miss is the small difference in Leadership buffs.
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I would (almost) never roll a Kinetics Defender over a Corruptor. Corruptors have higher base damages, a higher damage cap, and Scourge. A Kinetics Corruptor can still damage cap themselves solo, even with their slightly lower buff modifiers, meaning they will be doing *way* more damage than a Defender, who's solo damage buff from Vigilance is meaningless to a Kin.
Corruptor damage scale of 0.75 * 5.0 (damage cap of +400%) = 3.75. I've read that testing indicates over the long-term that Scourge is about a 17% increase in total damage dealt on average. Factoring that in, you've got a total damage scale of 4.3875. Defender damage scale of 0.65 * 4.0 (damage cap of +300%) = 2.6. That's a big, big difference. The only time I'd ever go Defender over Corruptor for Kinetics would be to do Kin/Sonic, foregoing personal damage to instead be the best team damage amplifier in the game. |
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This.|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I would (almost) never roll a Kinetics Defender over a Corruptor. Corruptors have higher base damages, a higher damage cap, and Scourge. A Kinetics Corruptor can still damage cap themselves solo, even with their slightly lower buff modifiers, meaning they will be doing *way* more damage than a Defender, who's solo damage buff from Vigilance is meaningless to a Kin.
Corruptor damage scale of 0.75 * 5.0 (damage cap of +400%) = 3.75. I've read that testing indicates over the long-term that Scourge is about a 17% increase in total damage dealt on average. Factoring that in, you've got a total damage scale of 4.3875. Defender damage scale of 0.65 * 4.0 (damage cap of +300%) = 2.6. That's a big, big difference. The only time I'd ever go Defender over Corruptor for Kinetics would be to do Kin/Sonic, foregoing personal damage to instead be the best team damage amplifier in the game. |
The only time Kin Defenders really out perform Kin Corruptors is the gap between 27-32 where defenders can exemp down and still have fulcrum shift, or from 32-37 leveling up when the Defender will have FS before the corr gets it. Otherwise the Corr is unarguably 100% better.
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Bonus! Fire Blast got a super-nerfed version of Rain of Fire on Defenders, and Rain of Fire also does triple-damage on Scourge instead of double.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
You've just convinced me to reroll a level 30 Kin/Fire defender that I have. The only thing I will miss is the small difference in Leadership buffs.
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@Draeth Darkstar
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Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
I would say Plant/Kin. It can do all the things that you are looking for.
I am struggling with a Kin concept and am looking for forumite thoughts on the issue.
I've tried playing a Kin for a long time now and the highest I got without deleting was an Energy/Kin Corruptor (42).
Fire/Kin Controller: Deleted at around 20
Electric/Kin Controller: Looks very sub-par on paper damage-wise and my L18 is unbearably slow unless on a team (not yet deleted).
Sonic/Kin Corruptor: Those sonic blasts are quite boring even though the damage was OK. By 37 I was bored stiff & binned him.
Kin/Electric Defender: Sapping concept that didn't work (better alternatives for a Sapper out there) Deleted in the mid-20's.
I'm leaning back to Kin/Energy on a defender or Energy/Kin on a Corruptor again. The KB of energy isn't great working with Kin, but the whole fast paced playstyle with flashy effects makes me smile which can overcome a lot of synergy issues.
Kinetics itself is quite intense. Siphon Power/Speed, Transference, Fulcrum Shift, the occasional heal, etc, so I was looking for a primary that wasn't so intense. Ideally I'd like to see an MM port of Kin, but I suspect there are balance issues preventing that.
I play a mix of team/solo content and am looking for something that's fun on the journey to 50. iContent represents about 20% of my play time so I'm not after a toon that only shines when it's been purpled and iTricked-out.
All thoughts appreciated!
-H