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I've always wanted to make a fire/fire blaster. Considering I've played Fire/Dev, Fire/EM, Fire/Elec (x2), and Fire/MM, it's almost surprising I never did a Fire/Fire. Main reason being how enormously end heavy a fire/fire can be. Cause of the heavy end requirements, I was never able to make a build that I was happy with for it.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyKilowatt
When in doubt, Fire^3. Screw the gimmicks, balls to the wall, damn the torpedoes, blastin' bejungus!
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Did anyone ever post a build for that Arch/MM blaster that is so amazing? I would like to take a peek 
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You should be able to do it easily with Cardiac. I use my Musculature primarily, because on teams I can usually get some end help, but I made the Cardiac first due to the high end costs I endured. With the Cardiac, I was even able to run Hybrid with no end issues. My build runs both HF and BA, Acro, CJ, Tough, Weave, and Fire Shield. I do lack significant recharge though, so my attack sequences may be lighter on end use than others who can get more FSC and Blaze in.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I've always wanted to make a fire/fire blaster. Considering I've played Fire/Dev, Fire/EM, Fire/Elec (x2), and Fire/MM, it's almost surprising I never did a Fire/Fire. Main reason being how enormously end heavy a fire/fire can be. Cause of the heavy end requirements, I was never able to make a build that I was happy with for it.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Whichever one you can dump the most inf into.
People tout mental as the overpowering outlier but it only achieves great power under two conditions, against spawns that have enough regeneration that drain psyches ability to stop regeneration actually matters and when there are enough enemies in melee range that psychic shockwave and drain psyche become useful.
In the first case yes being able to solo giant monsters is nice but you can do that on other ATs for considerably less effort. In the second case yes you are more survivable but do you really want to be in the middle of a spawn when one stun will kill you ?
If you want to play a blaster that can survive nearly anything and do so reliably devices all the way, couple it with any primary that has a stun.
You can keep bosses stunned until they are dead. You have the capability to insure that enemies never get to melee range of you and and aren't attacking very much while they try. You have a pet that even though annoying will take damage for you.
It's slow but it works.
If you want a blaster that is survivable, does lots of burst damage and slaughters spawns quickly, try an electrical melee/xxx/pyre stalker or a claws/xxx/pyre scrapper.
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Well, teamed, that ability is a bit more useful even on SOs. Sure, you might get hit with some AoE splash, but generally you can be run in an Drain fine when someone else is eating Alphas and taking aggro or otherwise controlling the enemies (yes, you don't always need that extra survivability for those same reasons, but it is still often useful).|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
In the second case yes you are more survivable but do you really want to be in the middle of a spawn when one stun will kill you ?
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
claws/xxx/pyre scrapper.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
fire/fire/fire with spring attack
yes the end drain totally blows and you need ageless
yes unless you kill them fast enough or if they're not clumped tightly enough you will get *****
yes your most useful skills is probably rise of the phoenix
but it looks cool
also I though the blastoid mez problems were getting fixed through the new ATO
I always chuckle when I see "ultimate" anything in this game. I'm not sure if I believe the idea that a good player can even make a barn door into a Lamborghini (you can't make chicken salad out of chicken poop) but I do believe that player ability has a lot to do with how well a toon performs. That being said the next factor would be playing style. Some people play like they have a chip on thier shoulder - something to prove and will pursue that goal above and beyond anything else - whenever I see Ultimate "insert AT here" that's usually what comes to my mind. The ones that rush ahead and committe to fights - if they can pull off the ulitmate bit and everyone else doesn't die it's all good. There are a lot of good players in this game - a lot of people that can pull this off. With incarnate stuff even the average player can do a fair job of it.
As for a particular build - I don't think cookie cutter toons work. Yes a superior build will achieve superior results but it comes down to the ability to use the toon the way it should be used. If you build a toon with all the whistles and bells and don't know how to use them, chances are it's not going to work too well. (Now that I've stated the blantantly obvious - lets talk about team dynamics) To me - fun is when it's a group of people with not so perfect builds act together to over come an obstackle by taking up the slack in each others builds so that everyone doesn't die and the end goal is acchieved.
Wow I'm just rambling on and on - someone turn the game back on - quick.
Ummm what was I rambling about again? Oh yeah Kittens.. Fluffy kittens are the cutest! Especially the ones with huge eyes that look all innocent. A friend of mine has a cat named Tisk... the large shadowy figure wonders off into the the morning light muttering about pie and the lack of respect of younng whipper-snappers and their crazy music.
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No an actual ultimate toon exist and is a /dark MM of some sort
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang_Tao
I always chuckle when I see "ultimate" anything in this game. I'm not sure if I believe the idea that a good player can even make a barn door into a Lamborghini (you can't make chicken salad out of chicken poop) but I do believe that player ability has a lot to do with how well a toon performs. That being said the next factor would be playing style. Some people play like they have a chip on thier shoulder - something to prove and will pursue that goal above and beyond anything else - whenever I see Ultimate "insert AT here" that's usually what comes to my mind. The ones that rush ahead and committe to fights - if they can pull off the ulitmate bit and everyone else doesn't die it's all good. There are a lot of good players in this game - a lot of people that can pull this off. With incarnate stuff even the average player can do a fair job of it.
As for a particular build - I don't think cookie cutter toons work. Yes a superior build will achieve superior results but it comes down to the ability to use the toon the way it should be used. If you build a toon with all the whistles and bells and don't know how to use them, chances are it's not going to work too well. (Now that I've stated the blantantly obvious - lets talk about team dynamics) To me - fun is when it's a group of people with not so perfect builds act together to over come an obstackle by taking up the slack in each others builds so that everyone doesn't die and the end goal is acchieved. Wow I'm just rambling on and on - someone turn the game back on - quick. Ummm what was I rambling about again? Oh yeah Kittens.. Fluffy kittens are the cutest! Especially the ones with huge eyes that look all innocent. A friend of mine has a cat named Tisk... the large shadowy figure wonders off into the the morning light muttering about pie and the lack of respect of younng whipper-snappers and their crazy music. |
So far it looks like there's an argument about whether Fire is better than Archery as a primary with MM as a secondary
I've never played a fire blaster (in fact I've not played much fire anything except for a Fire/TA troller) and I've only got one Archery toon an All-Arrows Crupper (which I really don't much enjoy at around level 28)
So... let's see if we can narrow this down a bit. Which variant would be better in the following Scenarios:
- Taking down a Rikti Pylon
- Soloing the ITF
- 3 Man Statesman TF (for the sake of argument you've got a TW/Willpower brute & Earth/Thermal controller along for the ride)
- Soloin the DA arc on +2 x4 (or more)
Thelonious Monk
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I'd say fire for the first 3 and arch for the last because you can shoot around corners and not eat the mezzes
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
So far it looks like there's an argument about whether Fire is better than Archery as a primary with MM as a secondary
I've never played a fire blaster (in fact I've not played much fire anything except for a Fire/TA troller) and I've only got one Archery toon an All-Arrows Crupper (which I really don't much enjoy at around level 28) So... let's see if we can narrow this down a bit. Which variant would be better in the following Scenarios:
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You can keep bosses perma mezzed simply by rolling an /Energy blaster and juggle it with Power Thrust. Then you can take a better primary like Fire so instead of the "slow but it works" outcome you get a "it's still fast and it still works" outcome. With a Blaze>EP>BS>Blaze chain it's not hard to kill a boss within 1-2 knockbacks. There is no sacrifice here, unlike the sacrifice you would be making rolling a nonfire/devices blaster.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
If you want to play a blaster that can survive nearly anything and do so reliably devices all the way, couple it with any primary that has a stun.
You can keep bosses stunned until they are dead. You have the capability to insure that enemies never get to melee range of you and and aren't attacking very much while they try. You have a pet that even though annoying will take damage for you. It's slow but it works. |
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I'd argue this list asks all the wrong questions. You're trying to figure out how to build the 'least bad' Blaster for the things you want to do rather than trying to build the best possible Blaster for the things a Blaster does well.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
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Blasters are primarily about burst damage, not sustained dps or survivability. While you can debate the utility of this specialization, trying to build a Blaster for the tasks you really should be doing on your Brute is a bit like trying to build the best Scrapper for healing others.
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Blasters can be built to have great sustained dps and/or survivability.|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
Blasters are primarily about burst damage, not sustained dps or survivability.
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My Fire/Elec puts out 361 ST dps and 613 ST dps with my perma spiderlings up. (no -regen involved). The burst dps is also incredibly high, and while my survivability isn't built to be very high (just 45% S/L and ~36% nrg), I have no glaring issues surviving in TFs and Trials with proper inspiration use.
Fire/MM's can be built to have great survivability. My friend's Fire/MM has softcap to S/L/E/N/R with a resist shield. With drain psyche on top of that he's quite survivable, and he has a self rez if he does die.
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There is the argument that with /Dev and a primary with a stun you can more easily deal with 2, maybe even three bosses while also moderating some of the Lts (assuming in either case most of the minions are dead too fast to matter, although /Dev may even be better equipped to avoid even the first retaliatory minion strike).
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
You can keep bosses perma mezzed simply by rolling an /Energy blaster and juggle it with Power Thrust. Then you can take a better primary like Fire so instead of the "slow but it works" outcome you get a "it's still fast and it still works" outcome. With a Blaze>EP>BS>Blaze chain it's not hard to kill a boss within 1-2 knockbacks. There is no sacrifice here, unlike the sacrifice you would be making rolling a nonfire/devices blaster.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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For single target damage, Fire massively outperforms Archery.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
So far it looks like there's an argument about whether Fire is better than Archery as a primary with MM as a secondary
I've never played a fire blaster (in fact I've not played much fire anything except for a Fire/TA troller) and I've only got one Archery toon an All-Arrows Crupper (which I really don't much enjoy at around level 28) So... let's see if we can narrow this down a bit. Which variant would be better in the following Scenarios:
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Archery is basically Rain of Arrows.
If you want to do anything besides shoot large groups of people, go with fire.
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Fire is unarguably the best single target primary for blasters. The problem is its still poor compared to what the ATs that are actually good at single target damage can do. Its like making a school bus for off road racing.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
For single target damage, Fire massively outperforms Archery.
Archery is basically Rain of Arrows. If you want to do anything besides shoot large groups of people, go with fire. |
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wut? is that even possible? does he have no +rech or something?
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Fire/MM's can be built to have great survivability. My friend's Fire/MM has softcap to S/L/E/N/R with a resist shield. With drain psyche on top of that he's quite survivable, and he has a self rez if he does die.
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Compared to what? A Blaster isn't going to match a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker for single target dps. The pets from Mastermind/Controller can easily outperform a Blaster on a single target.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Blasters can be built to have great sustained dps and/or survivability.
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On the survivability end of the scale, a Blaster will never be remotely as survivable as archetypes with armor or certain buff sets.
So what you really seem to be saying is that Blasters can be built that aren't completely gimped in those categories. Which is certainly true. But hardly the point.
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It's exactly the point and exactly what I said, and I would say it's the part of the main point considering this is a thread about the "ultimate blaster". |
Originally Posted by Beauregard
Compared to what? A Blaster isn't going to match a Brute, Scrapper or Stalker for single target dps. The pets from Mastermind/Controller can easily outperform a Blaster on a single target.
On the survivability end of the scale, a Blaster will never be remotely as survivable as archetypes with armor or certain buff sets. So what you really seem to be saying is that Blasters can be built that aren't completely gimped in those categories. Which is certainly true. But hardly the point. |
A Blaster can have as much ST dps as a scrapper/brute/stalker/mm/troller (specifically EM, Elec, and potentially DM) and a blaster (specifically mental) can be as survivable as ATs with armor sets and certain buff sets. I provided a very real example for both of those, if you read the rest of my post.
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Sorry you have to put mental in a situation where everything is just right for it and everything is very bad for the melee AT to get that kind of comparison. |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
It's exactly the point and exactly what I said, and I would say it's the part of the main point considering this is a thread about the "ultimate blaster".
A Blaster can have as much ST dps as a scrapper/brute/stalker/mm/troller (specifically EM, Elec, and potentially DM) and a blaster (specifically mental) can be as survivable as ATs with armor sets and certain buff sets. I provided a very real example for both of those, if you read the rest of my post. |
Mental needs many targets for drain psyche to shine, you also need to be fighting targets that are doing damage you are strong against, most likely smash lethal, and last don't have Mezzes that bypass your defenses.
One good mez and you will go from having 9/10 attacks miss you to 6/10 missing you. You also have Zero defense debuff resists so once that stun/hold/sleep lands you can expect that 6/10 to change to 9/10 hitting you in short order.
Edit: You also need a ridiculous amount of recharge to make drain psyche work for you
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Typical spawn size is usually enough. If you're only fighting on x1 you won't need as much regeneration as you would fighting on x8, where you would have more fuel for Drain Psyche. It works out. You only need enough regeneration to be >= the amount of dps enemies are dealing to you. When enemy dps is > than your regeneration you can supplment your survivability with inspirations for extended fights or simply stopping the flow of dps by killing your enemies in shorter fights.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Mental needs many targets for drain psyche to shine,
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| you also need to be fighting targets that are doing damage you are strong against, most likely smash lethal, and last don't have Mezzes that bypass your defenses. |
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| One good mez and you will go from having 9/10 attacks miss you to 6/10 missing you. You also have Zero defense debuff resists so once that stun/hold/sleep lands you can expect that 6/10 to change to 9/10 hitting you in short order. |
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| Edit: You also need a ridiculous amount of recharge to make drain psyche work for you |
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Base recharge = 120|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Perma Drain Psyche isn't hard to achieve. Even if it's a couple seconds off of perma, it's usually fine. Your health/end won't instantly vanish during a 1-3 second period of drain psyche being down, or whatever your gap may be.
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Duration = 30
120/30 = 4 = 1+ recharge
Recharge = 300% that is quite a bit of recharge
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| When you're softcapped to S/L/E/N/R the only mezzes that are going to be bypassing your defenses will be Mind Control type mezzes, nearly everything else will be checked by the aforementioned damage types, break frees can be used when the RNG gets lucky. |
Doable but i'll bet there are some real and painful compromises in that build. There is still the problem of defense failure which rapidly takes the build from survivable to non survivable.
You do have world of confusion and psychic shockwave if they were able to be wedged into the build. But you don't have have the kind of mitigation that usually comes along with a melee primary
I really can't say more one way or the other without seeing the build
I'm not sure if I can buy a viable build that hits perma DP softcapping 4 types and a position. 32.5% absolutely but hitting the 45% mark for everything and having DP perma you must be gimping enough things to a point where it probably wouldn't play optimally.
I'd love to get on test server with a few of the players on here, and really test a few of these theories and practices. Minus any ego, it would be good to see how other blaters have adapted their play, based on any given situation. For the most part, I think there are a number of nuances in play and playstyles which don't translate very well in text or even paper. Something so small as my two slotted hurdle + cj and ability to jump-cancel (avoiding both movement suppression and some root animations), contributes to an entirely different playstyle, than someone who is hover-blasting between spawns. Something like the extra animation time of FBreath is used to position RoF, which when combined with the fast animation times of Fire, makes it obvious that there is more than one way to effectively command a blaster, effectively. Granted, this is an "ultimate blaster" thread, so if that's the goal, I'd say a set of criteria needs to be established, before anything can be judged (not that it will change much).
In general, THB has a great build, and I'm sure with his playstyle, he can do some nice things with his Archery/MM-- however, my experiences fall more in line with DreadShinobi, who seems to share a more practical/realistic aspect to his play, similar to mine (at least as explained). Above all, a good player will deal with the mez (insp. falls like rain if you're killing fast, especially with the ability to combine), and on teams, gaps are covered. For me, veng. covers most tough team content, and anything where the team isn't in trouble, defense is also not as necessary.
So in general, it's good to read about other blaster experiences, but I'd like to see some in action.
When in doubt, Fire^3. Screw the gimmicks, balls to the wall, damn the torpedoes, blastin' bejungus!
The Bacon Compels You.