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Lancer shot's animation time is not long unless you have the idea that any animation that is two seconds or higher is long. Lancer shot is the highest DPA attack in the set.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
3) Long t3 blast syndrome. Top blaster performance revolves around their t3 blast, when the t3 blast takes twice as long to animate than what you're trying to compete with, it's not going to go well.
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The reason why Beam Rifle's single target damage is competitive with fire's is because of bonus damage from disintegrate. Effectively, fire and beam both have a secondary effect that boosts their damage.
-Beam Rifle DPA with disintegrate active-
Single Shot: 52.66
Charged Shot: 63.85
Disintegrate: 63.98
Lancer Shot: 75.36
-Fire Blast DPA-
Flares: 53.19
Fire Blast: 50.1
Fire Ball: 66.35
Rain of Fire: 55.76
Blaze: 159
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There is where beam rifle gets trounced by fire. When you start adding in the effects of aim and build up on damage output well there is just no way to catch up. Especially when using aim or build up on Beam Rifle hits you with a redraw penalty. So you lose some of your boost window to redraw, you lose time you could be doing damage. Its not a winning combination.
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Originally Posted by Garent
Lancer shot's animation time is not long unless you have the idea that any animation that is two seconds or higher is long. Lancer shot is the highest DPA attack in the set.
The reason why Beam Rifle's single target damage is competitive with fire's is because of bonus damage from disintegrate. Effectively, fire and beam both have a secondary effect that boosts their damage. -Beam Rifle DPA with disintegrate active- Lancer Shot: 75.36 -Fire Blast DPA- Blaze: 159 |
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For Blasters, the DPA on their t3 blasts is all that matters (and the t1 for mental blasters that lack the 2nd melee attack, but thats standardized), because the rest of the attack chain is best as melee attacks. Fire is doing double the DPA of Beam in this case not even factoring redraw and the longer animation meaning you can't cycle your other attacks faster. Beam is good on some corruptor sets because beam attacks will be your full attack chain, but for blasters you need to cycle in your sencondary or realize it won't be competitive.
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Originally Posted by Garent
Lancer shot's animation time is not long unless you have the idea that any animation that is two seconds or higher is long. Lancer shot is the highest DPA attack in the set.
The reason why Beam Rifle's single target damage is competitive with fire's is because of bonus damage from disintegrate. Effectively, fire and beam both have a secondary effect that boosts their damage. -Beam Rifle DPA with disintegrate active- Single Shot: 52.66 Charged Shot: 63.85 Disintegrate: 63.98 Lancer Shot: 75.36 -Fire Blast DPA- Flares: 53.19 Fire Blast: 50.1 Fire Ball: 66.35 Rain of Fire: 55.76 Blaze: 159 |
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Blaze is where EVERY set gets trounced by fire. This shouldn't surprise anyone.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
There is where beam rifle gets trounced by fire..
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I would say Fire/Fire in my opinion would be the Ultimate Blaster combo.
becasue you have way more area of effect hits then using MM and you get two auras that actualy slow the targets.....
So while someone is using MM...the enemies run.....while someone is using Fire Manipulation the enemies are going super slow and not getting away.
Sure the Arrows getting a final attack that basicaly costs no energy has no endurence crash and fast recharge....is fairly bogus and the Fire one Has an Endurence Crash, point blank range, is interuptable takes a huge chunck of energy which is annoying.
But overall your best killing performance if going to be with a Fire/Fire Blaster.....where you can fly in with two auras going...lay down burn/do a fireball a bunch of other area of effects and keep going...you dont have wait for a recharging power much.
Plus Fire/Fire has Phoenix and a way to get energy back right off....not some lame it increases energy recovery thing....
And Fire/Fire lets you do the Ultimate super Explosion Combo, that will annihilate pretty much any targets....combination of the the last power in the fire blast set followed by self destruction followed by rise of the phoenix and if you are incarnate you can follow up with another huge blast.
So yah i am sure arrows can kill even level minions or lieutenants quite well....but a fire/fire kills bosses and elite bosses in big groups....Fire/fire stands next tothe tanker and everything just dies...fire/fire joins a team and the other team members comment how the team is steam rolling everything.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Both are ridiculously awesome. In some cases Fire is much better due to the speed of delivery; sure its only a second or two, but I have seen plenty of arrows land on things teammates have already made dead and I have seen plenty of Archers (including my own) compensate by moving ahead and taking the next spawn and playing leap frog with the team.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
First, Fire's nuke has around 4 times the base recharge if I'm remembering correctly. Second, it already wrecks your endurance and your recovery every time you use it, and Burnout has a massive endurance penalty.
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I can immobilize a spawn and jump in the middle of it with soft-capped defense and let my 2 damage auras and PBAoEs wreck them in seconds flat.
FSC, Fireball and Combustion take them down to a sliver of health, which is handled by my damage auras. Throw in a Blaze for a boss and I'm on to the next spawn.
No Drain Psyche for Fire/Fire, but I do have Aid Self for topping up between fights.
Is it the "ultimate" blaster? I don't know, I do know it's pretty damn devastating though.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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OK|
Originally Posted by Garent
Blaze is where EVERY set gets trounced by fire. This shouldn't surprise anyone.
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-Beam Rifle DPA with disintegrate active-
Lancer Shot: 75.36
Archery
Blazing Arrow: 81.68
And that is on a relatively poor ST set. That doesn't need to set up disintegration to do its damage first.
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Didn't read the thread past this, because it sums up my thoughts perfectly. I have both fire and archery, and while I do find RoA totally amazing, I prefer fire overall. The activation times of RoA and blazing arrow annoy me. In fact, it's probably mostly with blazing arrow. After playing fire for so many years and having your main attack go off instantly, it's hard to adjust to having it take ~3 seconds. Plus I hate redraw.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
As much as I liked ROA nuking things, I ended up playing my fire blaster much more because Blaze is just that awesome. With archery you have to be first into the spawn if you want RoA to do much other than finish off some LT's and damage some bosses. On fast teams with equally fast players I found my only option was to pretty much ditch out on finishing off the last spawns bosses to get ahead and have the upwards of 5-6 seconds in animation time getting Aim/BU/ROA to cast before anyone else got there, where on my fire blaster I could help a lot with bosses thanks to the awesomeness that comes from having blaze up every 3 ish seconds and still be at the next spawn with everything else hitting Fireball/Breath to melt the weaker foes.
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So even if archery can theoretically be a bit better, the fire playstyle is simply faster and more fluid. You're not constrained by certain factors that affect archery. And this freedom makes fire #1 in my book.
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Are we arguing that beam rifle has poor sustained single target damage, or that beam rifle is a terrible set that fails on all metrics that are relevant to blasters and should be given self awareness only so that it can feel shame for itself? Because I cannot agree with the second one more.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
And that is on a relatively poor ST set. That doesn't need to set up disintegration to do its damage first.
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Did you guys account for the fact that Beam Rifle also has a -13% resistance debuff?
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Except Blazing Arrow is actually one of the best tier 3 attacks for DPA (4th best out of 12 sets (although that does include sets that don't really get a true tier 3)). Archery's single target woes are due to Snap and Aimed having quick recharges (and no DoT) and redraw.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Archery
Blazing Arrow: 81.68 And that is on a relatively poor ST set. That doesn't need to set up disintegration to do its damage first. |
So, saying that Beam's tier 3 does less DPA than one of the better tier 3s, is not really saying much. Even without disintegration, Lancer is slightly better than most other tier 3s, as a matter of fact it ranks 5th, just behind Blazing Arrow (and stays at 5th, just behind BA even after disintegration, although with dis and the -res from Piercing, it would move ahead of Blazing Arrow ever so slightly at 85.16).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I have no idea why you consider that a relevant interjection into what was a follow up reply to |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Except Blazing Arrow is actually one of the best tier 3 attacks for DPA (4th best out of 12 sets (although that does include sets that don't really get a true tier 3)). Archery's single target woes are due to Snap and Aimed having quick recharges (and no DoT) and redraw.
So, saying that Beam's tier 3 does less DPA than one of the better tier 3s, is not really saying much. Even without disintegration, Lancer is slightly better than most other tier 3s, as a matter of fact it ranks 5th, just behind Blazing Arrow (and stays at 5th, just behind BA even after disintegration, although with dis and the -res from Piercing, it would move ahead of Blazing Arrow ever so slightly at 85.16). |
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| There is where beam rifle gets trounced by fire. When you start adding in the effects of aim and build up on damage output well there is just no way to catch up. Especially when using aim or build up on Beam Rifle hits you with a redraw penalty. So you lose some of your boost window to redraw, you lose time you could be doing damage. Its not a winning combination. |
And the actual top 3 tier attacks are all considerably superior to lancer shot with disintegration and blazing arrow
Blaze 159 dps
Bitter Ice blast 108
TK blast 103
Blazing arrow 81
Lancer Shot 75
So we are talking about 2 very comparable attacks from sets that suffer from similar problems with redraw.
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You brought up Blazing Arrow after being told Blaze was an outlier in an attempt to show that Lancer looked bad even compared to what is considered a poor single target set. Except Blazing Arrow is NOT a poor tier 3 attack, rather it is better than most. I have no idea how you fail to see the relevance of my post, other than the fact that you likely forgot just how bad most other tier 3 attacks really are when it comes to DPA. Note, I am not trying to say Beam is fine and wonderful as is, but simply that Blazing Arrow, like Blaze, is also an above median attack, as is Lancer Shot.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I have no idea why you consider that a relevant interjection into what was a follow up reply to
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
But if you are going to start making comparisons you should at least report that as blazing is 4th out of 10 not 12 seeing as AR and Elec don't have Tier 3 single target attacks
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
And the actual top 3 tier attacks are all considerably superior to lancer shot with disintegration and blazing arrow
Blaze 159 dps Bitter Ice blast 108 TK blast 103 Blazing arrow 81 Lancer Shot 75 |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I did ? You must be psychic|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You brought up Blazing Arrow after being told Blaze was an outlier in an attempt to show that Lancer looked bad even compared to what is considered a poor single target set. Except Blazing Arrow is NOT a poor tier 3 attack, rather it is better than most. I have no idea how you fail to see the relevance of my post, other than the fact that you likely forgot just how bad most other tier 3 attacks really are when it comes to DPA. Note, I am not trying to say Beam is fine and wonderful as is, but simply that Blazing Arrow, like Blaze, is also an above median attack, as is Lancer Shot.
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I could have sworn I was trying to illustrate the problems weapon sets incur from redraw after aim and build up. Something that gets even worse when you have to use secondaries in your chain. In either case for archery or beam rifle the bulk of single target performance comes from the tier 3. Mostly because the high DPA tier 3s do a much larger proportion of the damage.
I am still wondering how you managed to go from a paragraph talking about the multiplicative effects of aim and buildup and the problems of redraw to what you were talking about.
So my favorite blaster is a Fire/Fire
/Fire sucks for the most part, but it doesn't stop my character from absolutely melting everything in my path ... very quickly...
I'm also a big fan of /mental , cause it's awesome too 
I've played...
Fire/Fire
Rad/Fire
Fire/MM
DP/MM
Rad/MM
Arch/MM
Arch/NRG
Fire/NRG
And they are all great. I don't think you can go wrong picking Fire, Arch, or Rad (eh). MM and Fire for melee, NRG for ranged that can punch you into next week. Personally I think it should just boil down to personal preference, sure the numbers are there, but they're there for all of them and each have good qualities.
For destinies, I usually roll with Clarion or Rebirth depending on team makeup and enemy mez capabilities.
Issue 24 PPM Calculator // The Great Makeover: The Vindicators
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Oh please. You better edit your post if you want people to buy that. You mentioned how Fire trounced Beam due to Blaze's better DPA and redraw.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I did ? You must be psychic
I could have sworn I was trying to illustrate the problems weapon sets incur from redraw after aim and build up. Something that gets even worse when you have to use secondaries in your chain. In either case for archery or beam rifle the bulk of single target performance comes from the tier 3. Mostly because the high DPA tier 3s do a much larger proportion of the damage. I am still wondering how you managed to go from a paragraph talking about the multiplicative effects of aim and buildup and the problems of redraw to what you were talking about. |
Garent then said that Blaze is where every set gets trounced by Fire.
You then came back with this:
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
OK
-Beam Rifle DPA with disintegrate active- Lancer Shot: 75.36 Archery Blazing Arrow: 81.68 And that is on a relatively poor ST set. That doesn't need to set up disintegration to do its damage first. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It's not worth your time, man. Just move on and ignore it.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Oh please.
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2) BR has redraw. Top blaster performance means incorporating your secondaries melee attacks. The two don't co-exist well.
3) Long t3 blast syndrome. Top blaster performance revolves around their t3 blast, when the t3 blast takes twice as long to animate than what you're trying to compete with, it's not going to go well.
Otherwise, fine. >.>