Ragdoll Physics Still Broken
By
Acroyear2,
Posted on: 2012-03-07 17:47 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
Agreed...was talking about this yesterday with a friend. Come to think of it, pretty much EVERY team/league/solo mission I have done since the ragdolls went up the creek, had a part when I just stopped playing and shook my head. Sure, it IS funny the first few times you see a guy head first in the wall, upside down, while his feet touch the roof, but then it just gets lame and annoying.
Not to mention how easy it is too have bad guys trapped with the ragdolls. Also, it makes KB pretty broken..in a good way (assuming they dont get stuck..). Sooo many times I kb someone, and they get stuck in a tangle of limbs (their OWN limbs) on the floor, and simply cant get up. When this happens with an eb..it is very lame.
Sure we can understand physics are a big technical thing...but really...enough is enough.
My particular favorite was a freakshow that, once defeated, squirmed about on the ground, his head... oddly missing... then I figured it out.. it had literally gotten smooshed into his butt and was being forced through his abdomen... it emerged, slowly, like a bad version of an Alien lavae being born.
It was *such* a visual. 
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
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Why? Because:|
Originally Posted by Acroyear2
Has there been any word on the fix for the ragdoll physics that have been broken since Issue 21? As it stands now, whenever enemies are defeated they appear to deflate like a balloon with the air suddenly released, or worse, like a human being who's skeleton has just vanished. Seriously, this looks like slop, and breaks the immersive nature of the game. Why has this not been fixed in six months time?
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1) This game was not designed with realistic physics and animations from the start.
2) Living things bend in unnatural ways, and break, when they die(although this game has us just "knock out" enemies as it says, so that is problematic, but they still would likely "go limp" and bend unnaturally).
How "okey dokey" do you think you would be if you were hit hard enough to be sent flying 10ft? more than once?
This is NOT even in the running for the "worst immersion breaker in this game"(the "too much UI" is the worst along with laggy network traffic) and actually is somewhat believable, even though it does seem a bit more extreme than real bodies would react at times.
We would need a new game to fix many of the issues this game has, and this is one of them. It would take new models, new skeletons, new animations and better physics systems.
Of course, a clever workaround many games have used is using mostly non-human enemies, specifically ones that completely self-destruct when defeated.
This also would make more sense in a world full of super-people so that the supply of minions wouldn't logically be depleted as a result of super conflicts.
(I have certainly wondered if there is some "minion breeding colony" out there where a bunch of people have the sole responsibility of refilling the ranks of the enemy groups we fight, in any MMO.)
(Edit: CoH does have those advertisements on villain side for "Minions For Hire", essentially, so maybe CoH does have such a colony. :P )
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I see what you're saying, but this problem is a heckuva lot more than just a bit more extreme than real bodies would react. As I mentioned in my thread on the same topic, a body can take 20 seconds or more to finish falling. That is not even remotely realistic, unless we're on the moon. ((You heard it here first: MOONBASE IN i23!! The physics model has already been prepared!!))|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
...actually is somewhat believable, even though it does seem a bit more extreme than real bodies would react at times.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
We would need a new game to fix many of the issues this game has, and this is one of them. It would take new models, new skeletons, new animations and better physics systems.
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1) I was talking about bodies contorting, not the fact that sometimes they don't "land" on the ground for a while. That's a bug.|
Originally Posted by CinnderScot
I see what you're saying, but this problem is a heckuva lot more than just a bit more extreme than real bodies would react. As I mentioned in my thread on the same topic, a body can take 20 seconds or more to finish falling. That is not even remotely realistic, unless we're on the moon. ((You heard it here first: MOONBASE IN i23!! The physics model has already been prepared!!))
I disagree, because it used to work. We don't need anything new to fix this; we need the old code back. Please, devs. |
2) It "used to work" because they changed the code to make other things "work better", resulting in this being broken.
If you really want to go back to "the way it used to work" then I guarantee you will sacrifice something else, probably bring back a bug that is just as bad or worse.
As I said, we need a new game designed from the ground up to support better physic in order to do this right.
This system is like patching a flat tire over and over until you actually make it worse by patching it than a flat tire would be.
That is why games have sequels and a lot of software eventually says "this update requires you to uninstall the old version and install this new version clean".
Edit: Haven't we seen this enough with graphics drivers requiring wiping the old one just to get the new one to work sometimes?
"Patched tires" are not "new perfect whole tires".
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This statement is ridiculous on its face. You can't 'guarantee' JACK about the code since you didn't write it.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
If you really want to go back to "the way it used to work" then I guarantee you will sacrifice something else, probably bring back a bug that is just as bad or worse.
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Why do they make changes?|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
This statement is ridiculous on its face. You can't 'guarantee' JACK about the code since you didn't write it.
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1) to add things
2) to fix broken things
3) to make things better that are not exactly broken
So yes....
1) you will sacrifice something
2) or things will go back to broken
3) things will be even worse
I can guarantee that "if they changed something" then they had a reason, and reversing the change would bring back "the old way" that is likely just as bad or worse.
Edit:
FYI, I believe the "new behavior" the OP mentions, that we have been discussing, was brought to the game after they worked on knockback to allow flying characters to continue flying instead of being knocked all the way down to the ground from the slightest knockback, taking falling damage as well.
So yes, "going back to the old way" would mean going back to flying resulting in longer wait to get up from knockback, and possibly falling damage as well.
That's worse, in my opinion, than enemies that have trouble getting up or end up in weird poses when knocked/defeated.
Why does 'fixing' the current ragdolls mean ANYTHING has to be rebroken? Is it utterly unthinkable that they could fix it, without busting whatever magical other features you are so sure, will be broken again? Maybe if they did a simple roll back of whatever code it was..yeah..then it could make things worse. But pretty sure no one mentioned this. Simply saying..'can we get it fixed' does not mean roll it back and give us whatever was also wrong in that other case.
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It was broken by a fix. That is why.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Why does 'fixing' the current ragdolls mean ANYTHING has to be rebroken?
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"It wasn't always this way."
It seems pretty obvious that the current behavior is the result of a change, either unintentional or intentional. Given the timing of the change apparently coinciding with patch notes about knockback behavior changes, it seems to be intentional.
Also, this game was never built with true physics calculation in mind. This bug is a result of their "simplest solution" to other issues.
Yes, they could probably fix it completely, but it would likely require writing all new physics code to properly simulate actual body movements and properly register collisions with objects such as walls and the ground.
It's a lot more time than they would likely invest when it mostly works and usually just "looks funny".
It may be "immersion breaking", but that isn't high on the list of concerns for this game otherwise they would have made a lot of other changes such as merging hero and villain Ouroboros zones(which doesn't seem hard given the code they have already in place in other areas to check alignment), fixing lots of other graphical glitches and generally making a much simpler user interface and more intuitive play so that playing is "more immersive".
I know it isn't the first time that you may have hear "they have a priority list".
This is far from even medium priority.
Lol, way to change your tune. One minute it is..oh no way they can change it at all without breaking things totally..and now you are just saying that it isnt a priority.
Even if your other argument, about it 'seeming' to be intentional was not just stupid..would it really be the first time they put something in game that 'they' wanted a certain way, only to have the players complain..and it got fixed? It sure wouldnt. Not saying it would not involve a new physics engine etc etc..but your flat out assertion that just cause something would take effort to fix, then wont fix it...is just..wrong in the face of evidence.
I don't know what you're talking about.
It may have been broken by changes for the four-legged models. If so, rolling back could break all the new things that use them and delay or end the work on Beast Mastery.
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Acroyear2, I agree with you. This is really disconcerting. This problem, in my opinion, takes away from game play and it influences outcomes. How you might ask? When opening my alpha slot on the Trapdoor mission my DP defender knocked him back into the railing in which he landed like a rag doll stuck inside the platform unable to do anything. I defeated him without any resistance. While that might be a great thing, the outcome made me feel like the victory was given to me. |
Originally Posted by Acroyear2
Has there been any word on the fix for the ragdoll physics that have been broken since Issue 21? As it stands now, whenever enemies are defeated they appear to deflate like a balloon with the air suddenly released, or worse, like a human being who's skeleton has just vanished. Seriously, this looks like slop, and breaks the immersive nature of the game. Why has this not been fixed in six months time?
And while I'm thinking of it, fix the physics so that things like bullet casings from fired guns and rocks from earth powers are visiable again. It was great to see spend shell casings on the floor after my hero fired his twin pistols at his enemies, but this feature has not worked for about six months as well. |
I do wish the Devs would look at the code, find the problem, and then correct it. I do not subscribe to T-Immortalus supposition that changing the code will break something else. That is an assumption on his part without any substantive or qualitative proof. This is what Beta is for, testing changes to see if it corrected the original problem without creating another.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
FYI, I believe the "new behavior" the OP mentions, that we have been discussing, was brought to the game after they worked on knockback to allow flying characters to continue flying instead of being knocked all the way down to the ground from the slightest knockback, taking falling damage as well.
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Given that the ragdoll physics are handled clientside and the KB changes affect character position which is serverside code I can't see these being related.
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I give less than a damn why it's broken. It's broken. It needs to be fixed. Someone needs to make the decision to allocate the resources to get it fixed.
Be well, people of CoH.
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This is way off base. It was broken by an upgrade to PhysX. There was a post from a red name saying that was probably the cause, and that it took them by surprise too. It was not changed to fix anything.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
FYI, I believe the "new behavior" the OP mentions, that we have been discussing, was brought to the game after they worked on knockback to allow flying characters to continue flying instead of being knocked all the way down to the ground from the slightest knockback, taking falling damage as well.
So yes, "going back to the old way" would mean going back to flying resulting in longer wait to get up from knockback, and possibly falling damage as well. That's worse, in my opinion, than enemies that have trouble getting up or end up in weird poses when knocked/defeated. |
As mentioned, the issue does impact practical play. I have been knocking foes down on flat floors and having them squirm around for 2-3 times what they would have suffered before, during which time I get free hits on them. I have also had NPC-delivered KB do the same thing to my pets, making them useless in certain fights.
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I didn't "change my tune".|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Lol, way to change your tune.
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"use the old code"...........that would break whatever the new code fixed.
"fix it".................that would require a completely new physics engine along with new skeletons and animations, bringing about a hundred new bugs.
Seriously, do you make games? games as complex as this one?
Not only do they have a lot of people collaborating, opening up possible conflicts between code pieces, but it's really a lot of very complex code.
You're asking for them to give you the moon simply because you can't see "the man in the moon". It's an oddity of visual most times, sometimes makes enemies get stuck but otherwise works FINE.
Go ask for them to fix the mastermind pet AI first, because that is a bigger problem. It's likely less work than rewriting the physics as well.
I hate being the "they have higher priorities and it would be too much work" guy, especially when there are plenty of annoying bugs that I believe should be higher priority, but it's a fact of life.
The game is over 8 years old, just counting time launched. If it isn't performing very well already, with no commonly seen annoying bugs, then it will never be that good.
That is why other companies put quality above speed and quantity. They know that making the game work as good as possible from the start will make updates easier and players happier, rather than throwing ina bunch of content that isn't fun because of bugs and poor balance.
(FYI: Cryptic's specialty is making games fast, not ones that run perfectly or even close, and this game was originally Cryptic's baby, which the devs have continually said hinders updates due to the way the game was originally coded. How long did it take just to figure out how to give us power color changes when we have been asking since Beta? Years.)
Learn to accept the "mildy annoying" common bugs or push for City of Heroes 2.
Those are the only options we have at this point that actually solve the problem.
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They upgraded PhysX to make other things perform better/more realistically as well.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is way off base. It was broken by an upgrade to PhysX.
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Otherwise, they probably would have fixed the issue immediately.
Also, what do you think controls how knockback behaves while flying?
They definitely had to change the physics reaction to not send a character flopping all the way to the ground.
I think it's a pretty accurate guess(yes, because I don't know the exact issue, but obviously the developers don't either or they would have fixed it and not been surprised by it).
The developers are only human. They're just like you and me. They take relatively simple coding language and turn it into a 3D virtual world for us to play in.
They make mistakes.
Maybe we, as outside observers, have a perspective they lack which sometimes leads to correct or good ideas due to "thinking outside the box".
Maybe it's time to take them off the "they can fix anything easily" pedestal and stop berating them for humanly giving us bugs with a system they didn't create originally.
Edit:
Code itself is also not perfect. The coding languages get updates from time to time to perform functions that were previously impossible. It's also "another language" that the developers have to translate English(or whatever native language).
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I would love to see every bug fixed as well.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I give less than a damn why it's broken. It's broken. It needs to be fixed. Someone needs to make the decision to allocate the resources to get it fixed.
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But, my wish is next to impossible(for this old game built on a flawed base), and I don't think the fix for this bug is possible without rewriting so much of the game that they may as well make a sequel(which would be great for many reasons besides bug fixes).
It's as simple as that.
I welcome people to come up with ideas for solutions to the issue, not just complaints to fix it.
I just put realistic expectations on generic "fix it" complaints.
Unless you have an idea that would work, count on it being low priority and likely still taking a better coded sequel to fix.
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1) Even additions they make that supposedly do not affect other parts of the game create bugs with other parts of the game, and likely have bugs in themselves.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Acroyear2, I agree with you. This is really disconcerting. This problem, in my opinion, takes away from game play and it influences outcomes. How you might ask? When opening my alpha slot on the Trapdoor mission my DP defender knocked him back into the railing in which he landed like a rag doll stuck inside the platform unable to do anything. I defeated him without any resistance. While that might be a great thing, the outcome made me feel like the victory was given to me.
I do wish the Devs would look at the code, find the problem, and then correct it. I do not subscribe to T-Immortalus supposition that changing the code will break something else. That is an assumption on his part without any substantive or qualitative proof. This is what Beta is for, testing changes to see if it corrected the original problem without creating another. |
2) This was broken by a patch. Why was it broken by a patch? They changed something to make something else possible.
Yes, they can fix it if they find out exactly what is causing it, but I believe it is more a symptom of faulty position/collision tracking and overall faulty physics simulation(such as the fact that physics can't predict even our own real world with the degree of accuracy that we demand from these games in every animated pose) that would require so much work as to make a sequel to this game the better option than most likely introducing a lot more serious bugs.
Seriously...
1) They'll have to stop rubber-banding and other artifacts of lag(latency/high ping/lost data packets).
2) They'll have to make accurate collision detection between both static and moving objects.
3) They'll have to make accurate power effects physics and collision tracking, so an enemy doesn't fly the wrong direction like they sometimes do when hit.(FYI, this is hard since we have to have realistically weighted objects yet powers like Propel must toss those objects like foam movie props; good luck with that)
Yes, it is fixable.
No, it is not easy.
Actually, it would be very very difficult to make it behave properly.
In fact, it would likely mean 20% of the game's code needs redoing(conservative estimate).
I would rather not see the amount of serious bugs that would bring to an existing system that currently works "remarkably well", even if I would love to see the fix happen.
I'm wise enough to know that it's harder to fix than eve I think, especially with other humans doing the fixing and the fact that they don't already know how to fix it.
The most logically simple option is an entirely new physics system and object tracking system.
Edit:
Honestly, think of the human body.
They are trying to take something that has only a rudimentary skeleton and skin and make it behave like a real system with a skeleton limited in movement by the limitations of each joint(all joints can only move in certain ways) which is then further limited by tendons and muscles and then the skin as well.
They would need some way to limit the range of motion of each joint in their rudimentary skeleton and weight different parts differently(like the chest being heaviest) at bare minimum to make them fall realistically.
That isn't even counting the effort it would take to make the skin(model and texture surface) to bend and not clip while also registering contact with objects in the environment properly in order to properly "land" and not clip through objects.
What do you really want them to fix?
Do you just want enemies and pets to not get stuck on the floor? How do they fix just that?
If just stopping a mastermind pet from running in to brawl instead of staying at range is as hard to do as it is then it's probably a lot harder to get the similar pet/enemy AI to pick itself up properly, if it even registers that it is "on the ground"(which it probably does not, causing the bug).
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Everybody still has to see the enemy/pet in the same position as everyone else or targeting and power execution would be off.|
Originally Posted by Gaia
Given that the ragdoll physics are handled clientside and the KB changes affect character position which is serverside code I can't see these being related.
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It's character tracking(which is not just your own character) that is the cause of this.
Do you seriously think that you get your own copy of an NPC that can run left while the one on your team member's computer runs the opposite direction?
How can we ever fight the same enemies if one of us is chasing an imaginary enemy because the "real enemy" went the other way?
(Yes, I have given character tracking that much thought to try to improve and minimize network communication for my own game idea, to make it perform as smoothly as possible with more "actors", which is at least an old word for players and variable objects, in the game, meaning bigger battles.)
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There is no reason at all to conclude that. This is a recent problem, introduced with a new version of PhysX. Based on what was said, it's possible that they only need to re-tune some of the parameters that control the ragdoll behavior.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
But, my wish is next to impossible(for this old game built on a flawed base), and I don't think the fix for this bug is possible without rewriting so much of the game that they may as well make a sequel(which would be great for many reasons besides bug fixes).
It's as simple as that. |
Ragdoll physics worked fine for ages before that. Claiming they can't get back to that doesn't make any sense.
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They upgraded PhysX so the game would finally support nVidia acceleration of physics since the PhysX API they used when CoV rolled out was an early adopter version of the the API that wasn't compatible with the version of the API that nVidia later ported.
It's obvious that updating the code to use the modern API wasn't quiet as easy as simply replacing the old function calls with the new ones. But that change took Paragon 4 years before they got around to that because physics like many features added to the game (billboard ads, cut scenes), isn't really all that important to the overall game play and therefore isn't that high on the "to be fixed" list. I also have the sense that they hired a temp to do the fix and without hiring him back, they don't have the inhouse experts to quickly understand the problem and come out with a fix.
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Are we sure it was for that reason? I have a modern nVidia card (GTX570) with fairly up-to-date PhysX drivers and my game still has PhysX accelleration grayed out.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
They upgraded PhysX so the game would finally support nVidia acceleration of physics since the PhysX API they used when CoV rolled out was an early adopter version of the the API that wasn't compatible with the version of the API that nVidia later ported.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Has there been any word on the fix for the ragdoll physics that have been broken since Issue 21? As it stands now, whenever enemies are defeated they appear to deflate like a balloon with the air suddenly released, or worse, like a human being who's skeleton has just vanished. Seriously, this looks like slop, and breaks the immersive nature of the game. Why has this not been fixed in six months time?
And while I'm thinking of it, fix the physics so that things like bullet casings from fired guns and rocks from earth powers are visiable again. It was great to see spend shell casings on the floor after my hero fired his twin pistols at his enemies, but this feature has not worked for about six months as well.
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