What matters is the DPS of your attack chain. Once you can saturate an attack chain, what matters isn't DPS or DPA, but DPAT (damage per activation time, that is, damage of the attack divided by the length of the animation).
Swipe 41.71
Strike 44.2
Slash 46.41
Followup 40.20
Focus 53.83
For comparison, SS has
Jab 26.5
Punch 34.76
Haymaker 45.6
KO blow 66.6 (last I checked, I think this was the 2nd highest DPAT attack in the game, behind energy transfer)
I don't see why you'd normally even take swipe, since it has the lowest DPAT of all claws attacks, and you can fill an attack chain without it. (Maybe when you're starting off and have very little recharge, but geared at 50? no.)
How about AoE?
Spin: 78.83 base dmg, 2.5 cast, 14s recharge
Foot Stomp: 59.22 base dmg, 2.1s cast, 20s recharge
and some of the crappy aoes:
Lotus Drops 41.71 base, 1.83s cast, 14s rech
Whirling Hands 41.7, 2.5s cast, 14s rech
and the outlier:
Fire Sword Circle, ~93 dmg including dot, 2.67 cast, 20s rech
Of course, the biggest aoe is lightning rod, but it has a 90s recharge so it's not even really a normal aoe.
Spin is better damage and better DPAT, has a lower recharge. Foot Stomp's advantage is it has a monster 15-ft radius, and spin is only 8ft.
And of course, that's all SS has; claws has eviscerate and shockwave as cones.
Anyhow, my points are:
1. Once you can fill out an attack chain without swipe, you shouldn't have it any more. And that's not that hard.
2. Spin is amazingly high damage. It "looks" like a lot of other attacks where characters swirl around and the damage is anemic, except Spin hits like a truck by comparison.
3. Claws is pretty competitive with SS overall. SS will do more with double stacked rage and is more frontloaded, but once claws has its double-stack of follow up, it is looking good. But SS has a crash. Sitting there using the nemesis staff and sands of mu and waiting for your damage to return can be pretty irritating as SS. Claws has no crash.
Anyhow, I've played both and I like both, but I think claws remains somewhat underrated. When you start comparing its raw damage per second of animation, it stacks up really quite nicely.
Quote:
I recommend including ArcanaTime. For about 5 minutes, I was stumped trying to figure how you were getting that. That's also un-enhanced and without build-ups.|
Originally Posted by Plasma
Swipe 41.71
Strike 44.2 Slash 46.41 Followup 40.20 Focus 53.83 For comparison, SS has Jab 26.5 Punch 34.76 Haymaker 45.6 KO blow 66.6 |
Also, Follow Up isn't 40.20, but 12.64
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
Quote:
Enhancements will normally impact the attacks equally - if you increase damage by +95% on one, you do so on the other as well. However, I should note that Claws can equip Achilles' Heel and deliver about 20% more damage than strictly indicated by DPA.|
Originally Posted by Justice_Bringer
I recommend including ArcanaTime. For about 5 minutes, I was stumped trying to figure how you were getting that. That's also un-enhanced and without build-ups.
|
In terms of Build Ups, these are less important for Brutes than other archetypes because they're additive with Fury. If you get an 80% 'Build Up' over time and another build only gives you a 40% 'Build Up', that's a 30% improvement in damage. The same difference when you already have +300% damage is 9%.
Yeah, but enhancements boost those numbers substantially.
Yes, but double stacked (easy to do) Follow Up can give you a sustainable 60% Damage Boost and Rage grants 160%.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
What Mids refers to as Damage Per Second is what the game refers to as Damage Per Cast Cycle, and is near-useless for determining how good an attack is. Brawl has a DPCC nearly identical to KO Blow, that's how poor an indicator it is.
Also, for some reason, Mids thinks Brute Follow Up has a 2.64s activation time???
Quote:
Any advice on what would be good options from Power Pool, Ancillary Powers and Patron Powers would be to give more AoE options?|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Street Justice offers great single target damage, but its AoE is lack-luster.
|
I really like the animations on Street justice, they fit well with my Rogue's background story. It's now my highest level toon!
Quote:
You're forgetting the most important thing:|
Originally Posted by Plasma
3. Claws is pretty competitive with SS overall. SS will do more with double stacked rage and is more frontloaded, but once claws has its double-stack of follow up, it is looking good. But SS has a crash. Sitting there using the nemesis staff and sands of mu and waiting for your damage to return can be pretty irritating as SS. Claws has no crash.
Anyhow, I've played both and I like both, but I think claws remains somewhat underrated. When you start comparing its raw damage per second of animation, it stacks up really quite nicely. |
SS has no redraw, so it can fit Gloom in its attack chain seamlessly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
However, I should note that Claws can equip Achilles' Heel and deliver about 20% more damage than strictly indicated by DPA.
|
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
If I wanted to add AoE to my Brute through an ancillary powerset, it would be between Pyre Mastery and Mu Mastery.|
Originally Posted by RogerWilco
Any advice on what would be good options from Power Pool, Ancillary Powers and Patron Powers would be to give more AoE options?
I really like the animations on Street justice, they fit well with my Rogue's background story. It's now my highest level toon! |
Pyre Mastery gives you:
- Highest DPA AoE attack in Fire Ball.
- A nice power against EB's/AV's/GM's in Melt Armor.
- No need to travel villainside to obtain it.
Mu Mastery gives you:
- Second highest DPA AoE attack in Ball Lightning.
- Another solid AoE power in Electrifying Fences.
- Second highest DPA ST attack in Mu Lightning.
- End drain(which is good if you're Elec Armor).
Aside from ancillary powers, you can get Spring Attack from the leaping pool, which deals good damage but has a painfully long recharge timer.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Take Gloom out of all those brute attack chains and the picture looks a lot different. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Good compared with what? DPS of other AT's, or DPS of other primaries?
If it always had good DPS compared with other primaries, then explain this: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...79&postcount=1 On that list, claws is second only to spines in terms of worst DPS. Considering brutes don't have spines and Brute claws is weaker than Scrapper claws due to Follow up, I wouldn't be surprised if claws had the weakest ST DPS out of all Brute primaries. |
Compare ST DPS of a powerset BY ITSELF, with no pool powers or APPs added to it if you really want to compare them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Why would I want to leave out an obviously huge advantage SS has? That will not bring about a realistic comparison.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Take Gloom out of all those brute attack chains and the picture looks a lot different.
Compare ST DPS of a powerset BY ITSELF, with no pool powers or APPs added to it if you really want to compare them. |
If you want to compare things so they fit your personal standards instead of looking at realistic scenarios, there's no point to discussing this further.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Realistically, not everyone is going to pick Gloom, just because it's the best.
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Why would I want to leave out an obviously huge advantage SS has? That will not bring about a realistic comparison.
If you want to compare things so they fit your personal standards instead of looking at realistic scenarios, there's no point to discussing this further. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
That's like saying that realistically not everyone will aim for the top Claws attack chain. Both statements are true but not relevant to this discussion.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Realistically, not everyone is going to pick Gloom, just because it's the best.
|
Here's another true statement which is actually relevant:
If you want the top DPS with SS, you'll pick Gloom.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
What makes Gloom so good?
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
That's like saying that realistically not everyone will aim for the top Claws attack chain. Both statements are true but not relevant to this discussion.
Here's another true statement which is actually relevant: If you want the top DPS with SS, you'll pick Gloom. |
Quote:
Fast animation, high damage, ranged, takes apocs. It's damage per animation is really high.|
Originally Posted by RogerWilco
What makes Gloom so good?
|
It also fits perfectly into the standard Gloom>Haymaker>KoB>Gloom>haymaker>Burn attack chain
Quote:
Thanks for the reply. Something else that's unclear to me: Can you pick powers from both an Ancillairy Power and a Patron Power, or are they exclusive? I've read on the Paragon wiki that you can choose only one Ancillairy Powerset, but I can't find if that rules extends to Patron Powers as well. I'm playing Rogue, so I have access to both once I reach 35, right? I need to do one of the Patron unlock missions to gain access to the Patron Powersets I think.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
If I wanted to add AoE to my Brute through an ancillary powerset, it would be between Pyre Mastery and Mu Mastery.
Pyre Mastery gives you: - Highest DPA AoE attack in Fire Ball. - A nice power against EB's/AV's/GM's in Melt Armor. - No need to travel villainside to obtain it. Mu Mastery gives you: - Second highest DPA AoE attack in Ball Lightning. - Another solid AoE power in Electrifying Fences. - Second highest DPA ST attack in Mu Lightning. - End drain(which is good if you're Elec Armor). Aside from ancillary powers, you can get Spring Attack from the leaping pool, which deals good damage but has a painfully long recharge timer. |
I'm playing SJ/Regen.
Quote:
Ancillary applies to both Patron pools (Villain Ancillaries) and Epic pools (Hero Ancillaries). And just like Paragon Wiki says, you can only pick one Ancillary power pool.|
Originally Posted by RogerWilco
Thanks for the reply. Something else that's unclear to me: Can you pick powers from both an Ancillairy Power and a Patron Power, or are they exclusive? I've read on the Paragon wiki that you can choose only one Ancillairy Powerset, but I can't find if that rules extends to Patron Powers as well. I'm playing Rogue, so I have access to both once I reach 35, right? I need to do one of the Patron unlock missions to gain access to the Patron Powersets I think.
I'm playing SJ/Regen. |
So no, you can't pick both Pyre and Mu and destroy everything with Fire Ball and Ball Lightning.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
There's a FAR difference between the best attack chain for a primary and adding powers from outside of that primary. Not everyone wants to attain the highest DPS possible in the game. Some people have other plans with their builds and thus want the highest DPS primary to make up for it.
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
That's like saying that realistically not everyone will aim for the top Claws attack chain. Both statements are true but not relevant to this discussion.
|
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
Quote:
One of the highlights of SS is its synergy with powers outside of its primary. Brute claws has close to none of that.|
Originally Posted by Justice_Bringer
There's a FAR difference between the best attack chain for a primary and adding powers from outside of that primary. Not everyone wants to attain the highest DPS possible in the game.
|
So if you compare claws with SS, and ignore a major part of SS's strength, excuse me while I don't take your numbers seriously.
Quote:
| Some people have other plans with their builds and thus want the highest DPS primary to make up for it. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Because a Gloom isn't an advantage of SS. It's an advantage of Soul Mastery, which can be applied to every primary in the game.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Why would I want to leave out an obviously huge advantage SS has? That will not bring about a realistic comparison.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
You can get Mu Mastery instead of Soul Mastery and still beat out top Claws DPS by a significant margin, while maintaining good AoE due to Rage + Ball Lightning + Elec Fences + Foot Stomp.
|
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
Quote:
But because of Rage, Gloom benefits SS more than other sets.
|
Originally Posted by Justice_Bringer
Because a Gloom isn't an advantage of SS. It's an advantage of Soul Mastery, which can be applied to every primary in the game.
|
Quote:
Apply it to Claws then, see how much benefit you get from it compared with SS.|
Originally Posted by Justice_Bringer
Because a Gloom isn't an advantage of SS. It's an advantage of Soul Mastery, which can be applied to every primary in the game.
|
Quote:
| You do realize there are Brutes out there who select Energy Mastery instead for survival purposes or skip APP/EPPs altogether, right? Well, some of those people would like to know which primary puts out the best DPS by itself. |
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if LBE from energy mastery is a solid replacement for Gloom(though undoubtedly weaker), since it can fit Achilles' Heel.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Not at all. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Those are pretty end-case scenarios you're talking about, where players are willing to settle for significantly lower performance for the sake of concept or bad decision making.
|
WP + CJ or Hover + Tough + Weave + Maneuvers + Physical Perfection + IOs = HIGH survivability for Tanking.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
Quote:
Two words: |
Originally Posted by Justice_Bringer
Not at all.
WP + CJ or Hover + Tough + Weave + Maneuvers + Physical Perfection + IOs = HIGH survivability for Tanking. |
Darkest Night.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
More slots needed for that.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender
Yeah, it is the lowest Damage Per Activation, but it's still the highest DPS attack in the set.
With the 250% recharge and 3 Damage IOs, Swipe is putting out 51.49 DPS
Also, Fury wasn't even listed in there.
Virtue: The-Invictus (Blue)
The Emissary of Justice - Level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
The Emissary of Justice. - Level 50 WP/Fire Tanker
Mesmerius - Level 50 Psi/Mental Blaster
Nucleoa - Level 50 Rad/Son Defender