Alright, I've had a few hours to cool off, let me back up and throw out an explanation here.
This is what pushed me over the edge:
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Now I'll admit I took it a good deal more personal than it was maybe intended, but I fired back as what I saw as in kind.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I'm just bothered by the fact that the person stating it is someone who has written a guide and has huge influence on the Kheldian community in regards to builds made...
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Alien, I apologize for speaking so harshly, but I want you to understand that the only thing I have ever claimed is this:
Positron's Blast is a set that over emphasizes damage enhancement to the detriment of everything else. This makes it a bad set. Kheldian's Grace offers much better enhancement values and comparable set bonuses, thus making it way better.
Nothing you have said can make any of that statement untrue. Positron's Blast is a poor set. It happens to be the best available TAoE set, but that doesn't make it good by any stretch.
I'm dismissing all the harsh words we exchanged after this thing blew up because that's only due to escalating emotions.
Again, I'm sorry for overacting. I think we've misunderstood each other from the beginning. Next time it happens I'll try to keep my head more level.
Where to now?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
APositron's Blast is a poor set. It happens to be the best available TAoE set, but that doesn't make it good by any stretch.
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Now wait a minute. I still prefer Ragnarok and Javelin Volley over both, the latter probably only being true on my personal build.. But Ragnarok stomps Posi Blast and Kheldian's Grace on a global level every time in my book.
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I always liked air burst
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Alright, Alien, this is just for you.
Positron's Blast, six slotted nets you the following. 47.7% Acc 99.08% Damage (Or 127.2 before ED) 47.7% Endurance 15.94% Range 26.5% Recharge Look at those numbers closely, because it seems to me you're the one who has forgotten about ED. None of those numbers except damage have enough enhancement to even be close to affected by ED, and damage is through the roof. Recharge is found only on a pitiful half of an enhancement. This is a bad set any way you slice it. For a set to be "good," it should have at least 80% in recharge. Let's look at a commonly used PBAoE set. Obliteration. 66.25% Accuracy 96.6% Damage (Or 108.65% before ED) 18.55% Endurance 89.93% Recharge (Or 92.75% before ED) This is more like it. Notice how the Damage enhancement is 20% shy of what Posi offers and it doesn't change anything. Then look at how it's gotten better accuracy, "way better" recharge, and only sacrifices a bit of endurance. The important attributes all get the enhancement they need. Now let's look at Kheldian's Grace. Mine is reporting: 97.1% Damage 66.3% Accuracy 96.6% Recharge 39.7% Endurance Wow, those numbers are even better than Obliteration's. It doesn't have proc damage, but it does have this nifty Form Empowerment thing, so I'll call that a wash. So let's take a step back here and look at the whole picture. Posi's blast is a bad set. Obliteration is a better set. Kheldian's Grace is even better than that. One might even go so far as to say that Kheldian's Grace is ... I don't know... way better than Posi's Blast. Now, Alien, you're entitled to your opinion and all that good stuff, but next time you go spouting stuff like you're someone who contributes to the site with guides, check your *** **** facts. I will repeat myself. Positron's Blast is a bad set. There just don't happen to be any better alternatives. Not until now. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Perhaps it'd be better to say "best reasonably economical set". If someone's going for global recharge, the options are limited... and of course one can only slot a single set of Ragnarok, though my target build has three places it could go. I'm expecting/planning to do one set Ragnarok, one PB, and one KG between them.Seems a reasonable way to go.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Now wait a minute. I still prefer Ragnarok and Javelin Volley over both, the latter probably only being true on my personal build.. But Ragnarok stomps Posi Blast and Kheldian's Grace on a global level every time in my book.
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Also, Air Burst might not be such a good idea... I think it's two-slot may be responsible for my dwarf form attacks regularly doing knockback, which is starting to be a major hassle.
-Morgan.
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I would phrase this a little differently.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Positron's Blast is a set that over emphasizes damage enhancement to the detriment of everything else. This makes it a bad set. Kheldian's Grace offers much better enhancement values and comparable set bonuses, thus making it way better.
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Positron's Blast "overspends" on Damage, meaning that a full set results in "wasted" enhancement value thanks to Enhancement Diversification. Kheldian's Grace is better "balanced" on the strength of its combined values on the enhancements themselves, because it isn't overrunning the ED cap to the same degree. Note that this analysis is merely looking at the straight up enhancement values on the enhancements themselves and is not taking into consideration the "worth" of the set bonuses as a point of cross-comparison.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Man, everyone is getting mad over numbers 
Some people may find it better, some won't. Does it really matter that much for people to start "throwing punches" ?
For me, it would be a better set. Just because the enh values are better.
I didn't slot it on my human form 'shade, but I will be slotting it on my Tri-form PB. 
For a human form, I'd have to say that Posi fits my perspective more, and for a tri-form. Kheldian's Grace all the way.
I have a question about KG
K so it says +recharge 4 times per min.. so the 18% rechrge is not alwasy on? and do i have to make it proc in a dmg attack to make it go off? or is it a global boost and always on?
and lastly is it affected by DR ? espiecally the resistance part in human form.. i dont notice it when i was in rv.. my res lvls were pretty much the same
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Sorry, I haven't had a chance to come back to the forums since this thing happened, due to having to write a 21-page literary review for class... makes my forum visits (and especially my gaming sessions) very sporatic and less predictable...|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Alright, I've had a few hours to cool off, let me back up and throw out an explanation here.
This is what pushed me over the edge: Now I'll admit I took it a good deal more personal than it was maybe intended, but I fired back as what I saw as in kind. Alien, I apologize for speaking so harshly, but I want you to understand that the only thing I have ever claimed is this: Positron's Blast is a set that over emphasizes damage enhancement to the detriment of everything else. This makes it a bad set. Kheldian's Grace offers much better enhancement values and comparable set bonuses, thus making it way better. Nothing you have said can make any of that statement untrue. Positron's Blast is a poor set. It happens to be the best available TAoE set, but that doesn't make it good by any stretch. I'm dismissing all the harsh words we exchanged after this thing blew up because that's only due to escalating emotions. Again, I'm sorry for overacting. I think we've misunderstood each other from the beginning. Next time it happens I'll try to keep my head more level. |
I apologize as well for letting this whole conversation get to me. I still think your wording for the Posi set is a bit harsh, considering it does have some good bonuses and it does max out your damage capabilities--not to mention the deficits in the set (acc and recharge) can be made up for with a good build--whereas there are no other normal sets in that category (other than purple and PvP) that come close to that. Does that make the set "bad?" No, it's still a viable set for many builds. Does it make it "awesome?" No...It's not optimal, but it definitely can be useful.
So, I guess we'll agree to disagree.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
I would phrase this a little differently.
Positron's Blast "overspends" on Damage, meaning that a full set results in "wasted" enhancement value thanks to Enhancement Diversification. Kheldian's Grace is better "balanced" on the strength of its combined values on the enhancements themselves, because it isn't overrunning the ED cap to the same degree. Note that this analysis is merely looking at the straight up enhancement values on the enhancements themselves and is not taking into consideration the "worth" of the set bonuses as a point of cross-comparison. |
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
For a human form, I'd have to say that Posi fits my perspective more, and for a tri-form. Kheldian's Grace all the way.
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"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Quote:
All the world's a stage,|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Oh geez. You guys made AIB start a monologue.
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And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Alas, the end of this short discourse has come.
Captain AIB now returns to his rum.
This set will be nice for warshades trying to get global recharge without going into purples too. WSes have a lot of powers that use 6.25% sets, so having a different option to put into one of them is nice.
Mostly though, I'm thinking if I want a set that gives more recharge to the power it's in, KG looks better. If I'm not wishing I had more recharge in a power, then I'll use PB. And if I have money coming out my ears, I'll use Ragnarok. I think this method will work out fairly well.
-Morgan.
I have to say-- I'm loving KG. I have it 5-slotted in Dark Nova Emanation with the 6th slot going to a range IO (hits more targets that way) instead of Damage/Endurance Reduction/Recharge. I never had Posi's Blast there before, mostly owing to procrastination, but there's no way it could be better-- and as of right now, that's without catalysts.
My Warshade's not exactly what you would call "purpled out" although I do have a couple purple sets in my build (so far). But I now have permanent Eclipse w/ overlap, and I do more damage as a nova, so I'm pretty happy with this set. The bonuses and the non-proc are very nice; it'll be interesting to see what it's like on my Peacebringer.
so i understand what the squid/human proc does
but what does the proc do exactly for dwarf form?
anyone care to explain?
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Dwarf form gets more HP. Also: not a proc.
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Originally Posted by Swift_Frost
so i understand what the squid/human proc does
but what does the proc do exactly for dwarf form? anyone care to explain? |
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Obligatory wiki link:|
Originally Posted by Swift_Frost
so i understand what the squid/human proc does
but what does the proc do exactly for dwarf form? anyone care to explain? |
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetype_Enhancements
Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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I completely agree. For me Keeping Posi' around on my Human form 'Shade is a definite Y-E-S simply because I need lots of recovery to keep me trucking with all of my toggles. I'm not running for defense of anything like that, I just have extra energy resistance when eclipse is down or I'm under exemplar. |
Originally Posted by AlienOne
This is probably the heart of the matter... we're coming from different perspectives and thinking about different kinds of builds. Sure, the KG set can enhance both (and I've used it), but a KG set helps a tri-form build more than a human form build. Maybe that's why we see things differently.
"Alien" |
I play both sides of the table when it comes to my Kheldians, so i totally get what you're saying, and Dech's alike
Overall, it does kind of sadden me though. Pre-ATOs I've seen a lot of conversation about how forms are becoming "less relevent" and then the special "form buff" from KG comes into the works. It doesn't seem like a mere coincidence IMO...kind of like a half baked way to make forms "more desirable" so to speak. (I'm not saying that we have it bad either :P )
Otherwise, the set is useful with nice bonuses but strictly from a subjective standpoint.
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thanks but no thanks, 80/107hp extra?|
Originally Posted by Spatch
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wow really, the coolest ATO and it gives useless stats...the dmg/res might be nice
That's useless?
I mean yeah, it's not huge. It's still an increase in mitigation that stacks with eclipse, which is something I might appreciate if I'm hanging around in dwarf. (And most multiform warshades probably have some attack they aren't using it could be stuck in, so it doesn't really call for any build sacrifices.
(Not sure how it works for PBs... I seem to recall someone saying that they can already cap +HP?)
Now, the human form effect... seems kind of redundant. Although it might help a bit when exemplaring. Again though, it's getting something out of a slot that would otherwise do nothing for me.
-Morgan.
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I play my PB mostly in Nova form, and am enjoying the 9% damage buff. KG was used to replace a set of Positron Blasts, as IMO it provides on balance better set bonuses. YMMV.|
Originally Posted by Swift_Frost
thanks but no thanks, 80/107hp extra?
wow really, the coolest ATO and it gives useless stats...the dmg/res might be nice |
Not sure if I'll burn five catalysts to upgrade the KG IOs to their superior version. I only got one catalyst out of 24 Super Packs, and so far haven't received any drops on incarnate trials. Time will tell...
I have dwarf on my second build, but don't much use it. That build enjoys perma light form, and dwarf was used to mainly mule IO sets. But I can see your point, the dwarf buff does seem a bit wanting.
Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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If I'm not mistaken, I believe you start getting those as drops in incarnate trials when i22 is released.|
Originally Posted by Spatch
so far haven't received any drops on incarnate trials.
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I could be wrong though.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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I literally just got one on a BAF not even five minutes ago.
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Originally Posted by AlienOne
If I'm not mistaken, I believe you start getting those as drops in incarnate trials when i22 is released.
I could be wrong though. "Alien" |
Guess I'm wrong then.
Thnx for the info.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Ever since this argument/discussion about Kheldian's Grace got started, there's something I've been wanting to know about it ... and Dechs laid the groundwork for answering this question.
Essentially, what are the "best options" available for replacing another "stock 'n' standard" IO Set that typically gets 6 slotted with a Kheldian's Grace? So far, Positron's Blast and Obliteration have received "honorable mentions" in this regard ...
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(2) improves the accuracy of all of your powers by 7%.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Kheldian's Grace:
66.3% Accuracy 97.1% Damage 39.7% Endurance 96.6% Recharge |
(3) increases Smashing and Lethal resistance by 1.58%.
(4) increases damage by 3%.
(5) improves the Recharge Time of all of your powers by 8.75%.
(6) increases Toxic and Psionic resistance by 2.21%.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Positron's Blast:
47.7% Acc 99.08% Damage (Or 127.2 before ED) + Damage Proc 47.7% Endurance 15.94% Range 26.5% Recharge |
(3) increases Fire and Cold Resistance by 1.58%.
(4) improves the Accuracy of all your powers by 9%.
(5) improves the Recharge of all your powers by 6.25%.
(6) increases Toxic Resistance by 3.13%.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Obliteration:
66.25% Accuracy 96.6% Damage (Or 108.65% before ED) + Damage Proc 18.55% Endurance 89.93% Recharge (Or 92.75% before ED) |
(3) improves the Damage of all your powers by 3%.
(4) improves the Accuracy of all your powers by 9%.
(5) improves the Recharge of all your powers by 5%.
(6) increases Melee Defense by 3.75% and increases Smashing and Lethal Defense by 1.875%.
I'm wondering what other Sets (and I'm not just talking Purples here) would it make sense to swap out from "standard builds" to replace with Kheldian's Grace? Crushing Impact in the Dwarf Strike/Smite attacks? Entropic Chaos(+1 more), Decimation, Thunderstrike, Devastation in single target ranged attacks?
I ask this because right now I'm looking at Kheldian's Grace (bought two full sets off the market for a combined 120 million in one day!) for a respec of my Warshade and Peacebringer, and I keep coming back to the notion of using KG instead of either a Positron's Blast (somewhere) or an Obliteration (also somewhere). Right now, I'm leaning towards replacing Obliteration in Black Dwarf Mire and White Dwarf Flare with Kheldian's Grace, since those powers both have a significant endurance cost to them, and the greater endurance reduction of Kheldian's Grace over Obliteration would seem to be rather advantageous there.
A couple of other locations to slot Kheldian's Grace which suggest themselves, simply because these powers tend to be heavily slotted when taken anyway, are:
- Dark Extraction/Photon Seekers ... replacing a Recharge Intensive Pet set
- Gravity Well/Incandescent Strike ... replacing either a 4-slot Basilisk's Gaze + 2 Damage, or some other frankenslotting
- Quasar/Dawn Strike ... replacing another Obliteration set
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Crushing Impact and Decimation come to mind. I would drop either of those before Obliteration, that set is very solid.
Obliteration is a "solid" set ... but it piles on the Recharge with almost no Endurance Reduction to speak of. With an insane +Recharge build for either Warshade or Peacebringer, that lack of Endurance Reduction can come back to bite you (hard) on your combat longevity, particularly in situations where there's little to no time where you're NOT constantly fighting something and you haven't got an Empath/Kinetics player in your back pocket covering your Blue Bar for you. Yes, you can "chomp blue skittles" to deal with that problem ... but only for so long, and that isn't always the best option for some activities (like Mothership Raids).
So Obliteration may be a "solid" set, but it's not the Be All, End All, Hands Down, Walk Away From Mids' set either. Obliteration does have a serious weak point in its lack of Endurance Reduction, which in turn is compounded by its very high Recharge Reduction. If you've got a build that "manages" that problem elsewhere ... good for you ... but not everyone has that luxury, necessarily.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Oh geez. You guys made AIB start a monologue.