I would like to point out something intrest. On Virtue, I've noticed the price of Kheld grace has gone from around 50 mil max to 175 mil or so since DK's last post on the subject.
That's just EBIL Marketeers controlling the market and extracting profit.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Alright, Alien, this is just for you.
Positron's Blast, six slotted nets you the following.
47.7% Acc
99.08% Damage (Or 127.2 before ED)
47.7% Endurance
15.94% Range
26.5% Recharge
Look at those numbers closely, because it seems to me you're the one who has forgotten about ED. None of those numbers except damage have enough enhancement to even be close to affected by ED, and damage is through the roof. Recharge is found only on a pitiful half of an enhancement. This is a bad set any way you slice it.
For a set to be "good," it should have at least 80% in recharge. Let's look at a commonly used PBAoE set. Obliteration.
66.25% Accuracy
96.6% Damage (Or 108.65% before ED)
18.55% Endurance
89.93% Recharge (Or 92.75% before ED)
This is more like it. Notice how the Damage enhancement is 20% shy of what Posi offers and it doesn't change anything. Then look at how it's gotten better accuracy, "way better" recharge, and only sacrifices a bit of endurance. The important attributes all get the enhancement they need.
Now let's look at Kheldian's Grace. Mine is reporting:
97.1% Damage
66.3% Accuracy
96.6% Recharge
39.7% Endurance
Wow, those numbers are even better than Obliteration's. It doesn't have proc damage, but it does have this nifty Form Empowerment thing, so I'll call that a wash.
So let's take a step back here and look at the whole picture. Posi's blast is a bad set. Obliteration is a better set. Kheldian's Grace is even better than that. One might even go so far as to say that Kheldian's Grace is ... I don't know... way better than Posi's Blast.
Now, Alien, you're entitled to your opinion and all that good stuff, but next time you go spouting stuff like you're someone who contributes to the site with guides, check your *** **** facts.
I will repeat myself. Positron's Blast is a bad set. There just don't happen to be any better alternatives. Not until now.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
The set is ridiculously cheap right now. Even the VEAT ATOs are selling for more.
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Originally Posted by Trilby
I would like to point out something intrest. On Virtue, I've noticed the price of Kheld grace has gone from around 50 mil max to 175 mil or so since DK's last post on the subject.
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Quote:
I did. And I posted them. And you seem to have not read them.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Now, Alien, you're entitled to your opinion and all that good stuff, but next time you go spouting stuff like you're someone who contributes to the site with guides, check your *** **** facts.
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I'll ignore the fact that you just implied with that comment that I'm someone that hasn't contributed to this community for years (including writing a guide) or that I wouldn't check the numbers in Mid's (the facts) to see how much those numbers would be affecting my powers.
Actually, no, I won't. That was completely uncalled for, and actually far below a maturity level that I would expect from someone like you. There are a ton more things I'd like to say here, but posting them on a forum is both against the rules and kind of pointless when I can't say it to your face in person.
First off, I checked what it would be like to max out my recharge on Dark Detonation (put it in the red as opposed to how it would be with Posi's Blast--you know, with ED in place? Mid's takes ED into consideration, right? That's why it says stuff like ED values and "Pre-ED values" beside it.....right?).
How much did it net me?
That's right... One second, as posted in an earlier post (which you obviously ignored--since you believe I don't "check my facts"). Dark Detonation went from 5.22 seconds to 4.32 seconds.
Wait....
That's less than a second.
That's WAY better.
I withdraw every opinion I've ever had on these boards.
"Alien"
*EDIT*
As for acc, my acc for the power I have it slotted in is sitting at 197% WITHOUT TAKING SUNLESS MIRE INTO CONSIDERATION. What does this mean?
You're a "numbers person"...it must mean I need that "way better" accuracy, right?
And you're right... losing a 10-point average higher damage hit (from losing the chance for proc) is most DEFINITELY way better.
I'll be sure to take an extra 1.5% S/L resistance over that ANY day... What was I THINKING, Oh Wise One?!?!?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Quote:
Dechs, dude, relax. I don't think he was attacking you. And while positron's blast does offer some strange enhancement values, it will continue to be my set of choice for nova emanation because I want the range enhancement and the recharge is not as important as for nova detonation and because I have plenty of acc from set bonuses as well as tohit from the form itself. I find it subpar for any other power because the recharge it gives is lame, so I would stick with a bad set that has its uses.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Alright, Alien, this is just for you.
Positron's Blast, six slotted nets you the following. 47.7% Acc 99.08% Damage (Or 127.2 before ED) 47.7% Endurance 15.94% Range 26.5% Recharge Look at those numbers closely, because it seems to me you're the one who has forgotten about ED. None of those numbers except damage have enough enhancement to even be close to affected by ED, and damage is through the roof. Recharge is found only on a pitiful half of an enhancement. This is a bad set any way you slice it. For a set to be "good," it should have at least 80% in recharge. Let's look at a commonly used PBAoE set. Obliteration. 66.25% Accuracy 96.6% Damage (Or 108.65% before ED) 18.55% Endurance 89.93% Recharge (Or 92.75% before ED) This is more like it. Notice how the Damage enhancement is 20% shy of what Posi offers and it doesn't change anything. Then look at how it's gotten better accuracy, "way better" recharge, and only sacrifices a bit of endurance. The important attributes all get the enhancement they need. Now let's look at Kheldian's Grace. Mine is reporting: 97.1% Damage 66.3% Accuracy 96.6% Recharge 39.7% Endurance Wow, those numbers are even better than Obliteration's. It doesn't have proc damage, but it does have this nifty Form Empowerment thing, so I'll call that a wash. So let's take a step back here and look at the whole picture. Posi's blast is a bad set. Obliteration is a better set. Kheldian's Grace is even better than that. One might even go so far as to say that Kheldian's Grace is ... I don't know... way better than Posi's Blast. Now, Alien, you're entitled to your opinion and all that good stuff, but next time you go spouting stuff like you're someone who contributes to the site with guides, check your *** **** facts. I will repeat myself. Positron's Blast is a bad set. There just don't happen to be any better alternatives. Not until now. |
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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I wasn't.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Dechs, dude, relax. I don't think he was attacking you.
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I am now.
**** him.
"Alien"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
I feel awkward standing in this thread right now.
Quote:
...Indeed. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I feel awkward standing in this thread right now.
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I feel the urge to point out, though, that while the difference between Posi Blast and Kheld's Grace enhancement values may mean little on your typical casually purpled warshade, the values themselves (leaving out all the global recharge we have) make a decent difference. Something to keep in mind, maybe?
Quote:
Frankly, one second out of five is indeed a pretty large difference, especially when that's by simply swapping one set for the other, not spending additional slots or something. Your character as a whole may not be way better using the set, but the set's contribution to your character as a whole is indeed what I would call "way better". A LotG 7.5 will take off much less than a second from most powers, yet most people would probably agree that it's "way better" than a level 20 generic defense IO that grants about the same defense, but no recharge.
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Originally Posted by AlienOne
That's right... One second, as posted in an earlier post (which you obviously ignored--since you believe I don't "check my facts"). Dark Detonation went from 5.22 seconds to 4.32 seconds.
Wait.... That's less than a second. That's WAY better. |
Can't we all just agree that Ragnarok is best, shake hands, have a hug fest, or whatever?
Quote:
I know the tone is a bit more harsh than we might be used to, but for what it's worth I'm pretty sure Dechs was being ironical and at least partially kidding with this, since Alien clearly does write guides and contribute to the community, lol. Dechs is a stand up guy, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Now, Alien, you're entitled to your opinion and all that good stuff, but next time you go spouting stuff like you're someone who contributes to the site with guides, check your *** **** facts.
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Quote:
Bull. You threw the first punch here. If you're not prepared for that kind of reaction, don't start it.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
I wasn't.
I am now. **** him. "Alien" |
As explained, one second out of five is important. I have nothing more to say.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
That's a horrible comparison.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Frankly, one second out of five is indeed a pretty large difference, especially when that's by simply swapping one set for the other, not spending additional slots or something. Your character as a whole may not be way better using the set, but the set's contribution to your character as a whole is indeed what I would call "way better". A LotG 7.5 will take off much less than a second from most powers, yet most people would probably agree that it's "way better" than a level 20 generic defense IO.
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Both of these sets have set bonuses. We're not comparing a global recharge IO to a level 20 generic defense IO here. Of course that's better....
If you must know the numbers, it's actually one second out of 16. The base recharge for that power is 16 seconds. My build takes that down to 5.32.
Slotting Kheldian's Grace would take it down 0.90 seconds.
That, at least to me, is not "way better."
Now... With Incarnates (Agility) enabled on the build, the difference is:
4.71 seconds recharge with Posi's Blast
About 4.0 seconds with Kheld's Grace.
By the way, taking off one of my LotG +Recharge IOs adds 2 seconds to the recharge time of my Hasten.
"Alien"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Quote:
Seriously? The "numbers guy" isn't fully realizing the numbers comparison here?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Bull. You threw the first punch here. If you're not prepared for that kind of reaction, don't start it.
As explained, one second out of five is important. I have nothing more to say. |
See post above.
Now remember how much you know about attack chains.
Then slowly realize just how little difference that 0.71 seconds will make in my attack chain--creating the thought within Alien's brain that "Hey! That's not 'way better' at all for me..."
See?
There, there... I'll be ok.
"Alien"
*EDIT*
I wasn't prepared because I didn't expect it from the likes of you.
I'll be sure to next time, now that I know what level you play on...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Excuse me. You called Hopeling out for a bad comparison.
Then you compare a power with 16 seconds of recharge to one that recharges in minutes.
I'm done with this. I won't waste the effort on a cheat.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
WHY U NOT NO KNOW HOW TU REED?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Excuse me. You called Hopeling out for a bad comparison.
Then you compare a power with 16 seconds of recharge to one that recharges in minutes. I'm done with this. I won't waste the effort on a cheat. |
Seriously... I wasn't making any comparison between the two.
I was merely retorting to his comment that the LotG will "take off much less than a second" from powers.
Wait, we're calling names now? Let me think of a good one here... Jerk!
No, that one's too old-fashioned... Ah, I give up. Name-calling is juvenile, and since you've gone there instead of actually contributing any meaningful dialogue anymore, I think we are done here.
"Alien"
*EDIT*
I may be missing something here, but... Is there some sort of "understood" rule that certain people on these boards are "above" being called out? That they aren't "human beings" like the rest of us?
Wait... Did you believe YOU fit into that category too?
That's rich. XD
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Hmmm.
I say "seriously" a lot when I get pissed.
*makes mental note*
"Alien"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Quote:
If you want to compare the ATO set to Posi's Blast, you compare it to Posi's Blast, not an unslotted power. In that comparison, Grace comes out ahead by a little less than a second, out of a little more than five, which is a meaningful and noticeable difference, if not a dramatic one.|
If you must know the numbers, it's actually one second out of 16. The base recharge for that power is 16 seconds. My build takes that down to 5.32. Slotting Kheldian's Grace would take it down 0.90 seconds. That, at least to me, is not "way better." |
Comparing either set to the base recharge is not a useful or meaningful comparison, because leaving the power completely unslotted and using no global recharge bonuses wasn't even on the table.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AlienOne
Seriously... I wasn't making any comparison between the two.
I was merely retorting to his comment that the LotG will "take off much less than a second" from powers. |
If you're going to use quote marks, implying an actual quote rather than paraphrasing, please do not leave out important words. I said "from most powers". Hasten and other powers with long recharges would be (I thought) obvious exceptions, and a couple seconds one way or the other on Hasten usually makes as little difference to a build as the proportionally smaller difference on faster-recharging powers, anyway.
Quote:
Thank you for replying with a well thought-out response and for adding a meaningful post to a heated debate.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
If you want to compare the ATO set to Posi's Blast, you compare it to Posi's Blast, not an unslotted power. In that comparison, Grace comes out ahead by a little less than a second, out of a little more than five, which is a meaningful and noticeable difference, if not a dramatic one.
Comparing either set to the base recharge is not a useful or meaningful comparison, because leaving the power completely unslotted and using no global recharge bonuses wasn't even on the table. |
Maybe I should explain myself further...
When we are comparing the difference between how much one set improves the recharge of a power over another, it's important to note what the base recharge is. The base recharge is the "context" in which we should base our comparison--especially since you are saying it's one second out of five. It's actually not. It's one second out of 16 within the context of the build. Do you see what I'm saying?
For example, what does everyone refer to in the damage categories to give a proper reference for stating their enhanced values? The "base value," or "base damage." It's the same for recharge. In order to properly provide context for how little (or much) a power is improving, you have to look at it in the context of its unenhanced values:
This power is this much recharge by itself. This power is this much recharge with Posi's Blast. This power is this much recharge with Kheldian's Grace. Here is the difference within the context of how much each is improving the power.
Therefore, yes, I believe it's important to state the base values.
Also, I never stated that "not using global recharge bonuses" was part of the calculations... I'm not sure where you got that from--all calculations I've done with both sets have been in the context of the same Chaos™ build I currently run on AlienOne.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
I was not attempting to make any comparison, either, only an analogy that one choice can be "way better" than another, even if its total impact on the power or build as a whole is very small.
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"With great power comes great responsibility," right?
As Microcosm has illustrated, there can be great use for the set Posi's Blast in his build (and in my opinion many different builds)... Dechs has implied, on the other hand, that the set is useless.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
If you're going to use quote marks, implying an actual quote rather than paraphrasing, please do not leave out important words. I said "from most powers". Hasten and other powers with long recharges would be (I thought) obvious exceptions, and a couple seconds one way or the other on Hasten usually makes as little difference to a build as the proportionally smaller difference on faster-recharging powers, anyway.
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Also, a couple of seconds on Hasten one way (losing them) can have a significant impact on a build--and I'm speaking within the context of your statement that "less than a second can matter."
If Hasten has changed from perma to non-perma because of those two seconds, wouldn't you think that it would make a significant impact on a build? I mean, you were just stating that "one second" (in this case 3/4 of a second) can make a huge difference with a power, right? Well, if you lose Hasten for several seconds, that takes that same power's recharge time up higher than a second for the duration that Hasten is down.
You can't tell me that doesn't have an impact on it--and thusly, comparing a LotG +recharge to a lvl 20 Def IO is a little.....whack, to say the least--especially in the context of the fact that we're talking about how sets improve a power.
*EDIT* On top of that, I haven't even broached the subject that Dechs mentioned 6-slotting a power--which is what made me think of the whole ED thing in the first place... People just don't do that anymore (due to ED) unless they're trying to get defense bonuses or slot a bunch of procs... When I refer to slotting a power, I don't 6-slot it unless I'm going for a particular set bonus, which Dechs has already said wasn't the thing that mattered about the Kheld set.
"Alien"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
|
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Quote:
I don't think that's a useful way to look at it, no. It's factually true, but it's not as useful for comparing "Dark Detonation with Posi's blast" vs "Dark Detonation with Kheld Grace". Saying "the Grace slotting lets me use the power 15% more often than the Posi slotting" (or whatever) is a more useful and applicable comparison, because it directly compares one slotting to the other (if I traded this Posi set for Grace, how many more Dark Detonations could I throw around? About 15% more), rather than comparing both to some third metric that never actually comes into play.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
When we are comparing the difference between how much one set improves the recharge of a power over another, it's important to note what the base recharge is. The base recharge is the "context" in which we should base our comparison--especially since you are saying it's one second out of five. It's actually not. It's one second out of 16. Do you see what I'm saying?
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We often compare base damage values between different powers, because that's simple to compare and the ratio will be the same if both powers are slotted the same way. I don't think I've ever seen anyone compare two different slottings of the same power and talk about both slottings primarily in comparison to the base damage.
Quote:
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Actually, a couple of seconds on Hasten one way (losing them) can have a significant impact on a build--and I'm speaking within the context of your statement that "less than a second can matter." If Hasten has changed from perma to non-perma because of those two seconds, wouldn't you think that it would make a significant impact on a build? I mean, you were just stating that "one second" (in this case 3/4 of a second) can make a huge difference with a power, right? Well, if you lose Hasten for several seconds, that takes that same power's recharge time up higher than a second for the duration that Hasten is down. You can't tell me that doesn't have an impact on it. |
(Personally, I think perma-hasten is overrated as a goal in itself. I barely notice using a slightly worse chain for the 10 seconds every 130 while Hasten is down on most of my characters. If some other build goal also lies in perma-hasten territory, then that can be important. That's a bit of a tangent, though.)
This is all proof Posi Blast is a bad set because it makes people argue :<
[The storm has ceased. Night has passed. A new day has dawned. And yet, all is not well on board the War and Peace. The once brave and noble crew no longer speaks the lovely language of hope and encouragement. For now, because of impatience and bitterness (and also perhaps a touch of scurvy) they speak in words of hate and despair. Kheld on Kheld violence has once again reared its ugly head.]
High on the deck, Serene Servant raises her voice above the crew. She cries out, "Silence!" and is met with many sneers and jeers. One insolent rogue replies, "Why don't you come down here and silence me, wench?" Her eyes flash as she transforms, "And why would I need to come down there?" In a menacing tone she continues, "When I can shut you up from where I stand."
Suddenly, she is snatched away, teleported, down, down, through the galley and down into the Captain's quarters. She reverts back to her comely form. Standing at attention she remains silent as she gazes at the Alien in Black comfortably seated on a high backed chair in the center of the room. An amber liquid gently sloshes back and forth in the clear bottle set on the table before him.
In a measured voice he begins, "We've weathered rough seas and yet I feel as though my ship is still being tossed to and fro." His tone becomes more direct, "What is the problem dear lass?" (A deep, abiding, respect is evident in all their exchanges. And while there is, nothing akin to romantic love between them, it could be well said that these two, self-actualized, Khelds are truly of the same heart and mind.)
"The children are fighting again, sir!" she replies.
"Well, then," his voice hardening, "I suppose that I will have to come forth."
(To be continued...)
-Morgan.