Incarnate PCs and Arachnos Patrons
By
Android_5Point9,
Posted on: 2012-02-02 16:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
We might eclipse the patrons in power, but that doesn't mean they aren't important and powerful in their own right. I mean, why else would Recluse keep them around otherwise?
I don't see why future content couldn't involve you intimidating them for information, or just working alongside them. Tips are something I'd love to see more of redside. "Mako knows about a magic carp that will help you destroy the world, but he ain't talkin'. Go punch his face!"
Considering that all of the patron arcs have you betraying and overcoming your patron and proving that you're more powerful than they are (and at level 40-45, even), I don't see the Incarnate powers you get later as making them less obsolete at that point than they already were.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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Ghost Widow is one of Recluse's advisors and she controls the Fortunata corps and so on. She's also nigh-immortal as long as Arachnos exists. Mako annihilated an arch-villain level threat (Scrapyard) singlehandedly, Black Scorpion has his hands in all the technology in the ROgue Isles and Scirocco is kept under close watch because of his power and idealism.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
See that's it... what happens when your Patron can't hold a candle to you, and you can do everything they can and more? Currently, as characters the four patrons are some of the more interesting n the game. To see them made redundant would be very sad because the whole structure of them is interesting. I don't know how this is going to pan out but given how neglected redside tends to be, I'm concerned they may just get a cursory glossing over which would be incredibly sad IMO. |
Even if we have all this ultimate power, we're never going to be patrons because Recluse has picked his four knowing they can be trusted and won't pick up and leave, not forgetting game reasons as well.
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Issue 22 expands on this. Thats all we can say.
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I figured the point wasn't that Recluse's lieutenants were actually the strongest villains around, rather that they were the strongest ones that he was able to con into doing all of his odd jobs. Presumably if the game engine somehow allowed for it, he'd be happy to hire any player villain both potent enough and desperate enough to be one of his groupies. In general, not much is made of Recluse's personal power. It's just that he has a good base of infrastructure and is the counterpart of Statesman, who was talked up as the fanciest of heroes, therefore people assumed Recluse must be the coolest villain.
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Not everybody runs those, though, so it's entirely possible to end up playing an Incarnate who *didn't* end up betraying their Patron... |
Originally Posted by Quasadu
Considering that all of the patron arcs have you betraying and overcoming your patron and proving that you're more powerful than they are (and at level 40-45, even), I don't see the Incarnate powers you get later as making them less obsolete at that point than they already were.
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With my own Chanter, for instance, I stopped after the first arc and never continued with Ghost Widow's missions. Mostly because I knew exactly where they were headed and that the whole business would have been completely counter to the personality and concept of the character I was playing. It just wasn't the kind of thing he'd have done, so I didn't make him do it.
Fast-forward to the present... Chanter is now a +3 full Incarnate who's still on Belladonna's good side. As far as his "actual play" story progression goes, he never had a run in with Doas, he never threw a wrench in the works, GW still trusts him and he's perfectly content with that... Even if he's got bigger things to worry about these days than running minor errands for her like finding the Red Widow's bones, he doesn't consider their association over. If she needed him, he'd be there, simply now as more of an equal and a willing ally than a follower.
I always play Grey Kestrel as having a very similar thing with Scirocco. Sure, she can and has kicked his butt when the occasion called for it ("Daos be damned, friends don't let friends commit karmic suicide," she says-), but purpled-out, full Incarnation and all, she still grins and calls him "Boss". Even though she's not under Arachnos' thumb anymore, she made the choice to stay with him. She's just not willing to abandon the guy in hostile territory. That's another one of those things that friends don't do to friends.
So, yeah. I rather hope for Chanter and Kestrel and other characters like them's sake the devs don't ever get some wild idea to write the Patrons completely out of the picture, or get rid of them as something no longer useful in the post-end game City world. I'm sure it's expected for all of us playing red-side to toe the party line, make a hash of their plans and then move on to thowing Recluse's helmet at him on our way to Ultimate Power... but not all of our villains and rogues do that, and there's a certain charm to having that option, I think.
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I want one of them (chosen at random maybe) to seek you out as their patron. They get access to a small sample of your powers, and get to run errands for you.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
That'll be a challenge to write I'm sure, but I'm interested in where it leaves Ghost Widow, Scirrocco, Black Scorpion and Mako... They've never been "mentors" as much as the Phalanx has. Never there to offer a chance to do grand deeds and make a name for yourself - until relatively late in your career when you choose one as a Patron if you're red-side.
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Make it so!
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Hah! Well, if this happened, I wouldn't exactly be opposed to it, but like with the Phalanx, I'd like to leave Arachnos and the Patrons at least a little dignity just so they constitute effective threats and so we don't lower the bar too much. They're some of the game's "biggest," and I'd rather keep them as rivals (or allies) than as peons, if that makes sense.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I want one of them (chosen at random maybe) to seek you out as their patron. They get access to a small sample of your powers, and get to run errands for you.
Make it so! |
I wouldn't object to having more recurring characters like Dean McArthur, though, who seek to be our lackeys and sample our powers. You could have, say, a weasely suck-up villain try to suck up to my villain as a contact, helping me in exchange for protection. Secretly, he's trying to duplicate my powers, culminating in a mission where he shows up with an Architect copy of my powers - a lot like a Dopelganger, but without duplicating appearance - and is mercilessly beaten down for his arrogance. Then we get a choice of whether to spare him because we respect the ambition or kill him because he's an idiot. In one case he leaves town, in the other he's dead, and in both cases the contact's gone after the arc.
I'd play that. Hell, I almost wanted to keep my Skull lackey from that one Dr. Graves mission.
Back to the Patrons, I really don't feel we need to be put over them any more than we already are in their arcs. Aside from the insulting cowardice we're supposed to show towards Arbiter Daos, the Patron arcs are actually some of the best put together in the game, especially from the perspective of putting player characters over. They just take a bit of a leap of faith to get through the part where you're a lackey.
Each Patron's four arcs typically follow this pattern:
Arc 1: You're a lackey serving under the Patron.
Arc 2: You challenge and defeat your patron, becoming his or her equal.
Arc 3: You're effectively one of the Patrons, serving Arachnos alongside the others.
Arc 4: You challenge Arachnos itself and win, becoming an equal of Lord Recluse himself.
There really isn't much more that can be done to put the player over without being self-aggrandising and petty, and it's done in a way that promotes the player's power, authority and coolness without having to dismantle the signature characters the player is allowed to raise above. We put them in their place, yes, but even after we leave, these people are still strong, authoritative, confident villains, just no longer THE strongest, most authoritative, most confident ones. And it's not because they lost status, but rather because we gained status. If the SSAs were drawn up like that, I'd have been a much happier man.
Basically, if we go through the Patrongs arcs all the way, we're already well above their level, so there's no reason to worry about putting us over any more than that. This does, however, mean that we can involve the Patrons themselves a lot more as more regular enemies, now that their appearances no longer need to be budgeted and no longer need to carry enormous weight. We've seen the Patrons fail once, so we can involve them in storylines and have them fail again without them losing too much status if they're handled properly.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The answer is rather simple, though some may not like it. What is it you ask?|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
See that's it... what happens when your Patron can't hold a candle to you, and you can do everything they can and more? Currently, as characters the four patrons are some of the more interesting n the game. To see them made redundant would be very sad because the whole structure of them is interesting.
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Lord Recluse, for the sake of protecting Arachnos' future, shows each of his Lieutenants the 'Way of the Well.' In doing so, granting them Incarnate Powers and given expanded roles in defending Arachnos and expanding Recluse's agenda.
Funny thing about it though, the path they followed would be the same path as the players in level of power. Even so, they will not become a threat to Recluse, even if they all banded together.
In other words, their incarnate powers are greater than the players are only because they are an AV, but far less than what Recluse, Statesman, Hero 1, or even Cole's powers are.
That's how I see them being kept from becoming marginalized and redundant.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
I hadn't thought about this before, but now that the OP has put the thought in my head, I'd think the opposite would/should happen with the Patrons as opposed to the Freedom Phalanx. While Heroes would eclipse the Phalanx, and move on to taking on more "cosmic" style threats, I'd think the Patrons would become envious and antagonistic towards the Villains, and might seek to hinder or remove them as potential threats.
I don't think it will happen, but it would be a nice dichotomy to implement that would- IMO- be very much in keeping with the Good/Evil morality of Blue and Red sides.
Nah, I hope they become more of a presense in terms of the game, and they're forced to help you, or choose to hinder you. Remember, by the end of the arc, 'you' are on even keel with the rest of them, as far as Arachnos, and Recluse, is concerned. I would like to see them 'assisting you' if you do Arachnos involved missions, or working against you, when not.
I've said it before and I'll say it now, I want to see Hero Patrons of the Freedom Phalanx. We have learned the most and empathized with Recluse's Lieutenants more than we have with Paragon's premire heroes for no other reason that we've been exposed to them more. Their stories are interesting, and we wind up betraying each in turn, but only for our own aggrandizement. I'd like to see hero arcs that represent a similiar take, however, we do it rising above the hero's particular personality flaw and gaining their respect, instead of betraying them and gaining a promotion to being their equal. For Positron, it's moral over logic, Manticore, it's compassion over cynicism, etc. They see the merit of your position and either willingly, or begrudgingly, acknowledge your value and point of view over their own in a particular instance (instead of betrayal heroside, you have a virtue that goes above theirs, at least for that one instance).
The ultimate point being, I have no problem rising above a particular NPC in the game, particularly a "mentor" style NPC, but it has to make sense in context along a 'broad stroke' view that doesn't alienate most players. Villains would see us as rivals (which so far, has worked) heroes would earn their trust and respect to the point they would defer to them (which, with a little bit of effort, can be done). In both cases, a 'work smart, not hard' approach to the development of those traits would go a long way.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Unfortunately, that would feed into the 'Dev's hate villains' mindset, though it does make the most sense. Now if they added something villains could obtain (temp power, etc) that a hero couldn't because of the added risk, that's a different thing.|
Originally Posted by Zombieluvr
I hadn't thought about this before, but now that the OP has put the thought in my head, I'd think the opposite would/should happen with the Patrons as opposed to the Freedom Phalanx. While Heroes would eclipse the Phalanx, and move on to taking on more "cosmic" style threats, I'd think the Patrons would become envious and antagonistic towards the Villains, and might seek to hinder or remove them as potential threats.
I don't think it will happen, but it would be a nice dichotomy to implement that would- IMO- be very much in keeping with the Good/Evil morality of Blue and Red sides. |
However, I'm of the view that most villainside missions should be more difficult, but yeild greater rewards than heroside, thematically. More temp powers, badges, and accolades, but with greater odds/difficulty. Unfortunately, I don't mean more ambushes, more stop-and-go mission perameters, etc to achieve that effect. Not that they aren't valid obstacles, just that they're used too much in a game that formerly had Stalkers as a primary villain choice. I think they did have that in mind at conception, but not the best idea of how to pull that off.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
We've rather been caught up in the notion that as we progress through the Incarnate arc, as the Who Will Die arc reaches its terminus, that the player is the master of his or her own destiny.
Matt Miller's been quite clear on that - Freedom Phalanx are to assume far less of a role as our heroic mentors and take on a much more secondary role as we supercede them, and we become the heroes of the game.
That'll be a challenge to write I'm sure, but I'm interested in where it leaves Ghost Widow, Scirrocco, Black Scorpion and Mako... They've never been "mentors" as much as the Phalanx has. Never there to offer a chance to do grand deeds and make a name for yourself - until relatively late in your career when you choose one as a Patron if you're red-side.
See that's it... what happens when your Patron can't hold a candle to you, and you can do everything they can and more? Currently, as characters the four patrons are some of the more interesting n the game. To see them made redundant would be very sad because the whole structure of them is interesting.
I don't know how this is going to pan out but given how neglected redside tends to be, I'm concerned they may just get a cursory glossing over which would be incredibly sad IMO.
Thelonious Monk