Regen! A discussion.

Preface:It was pointed out that there are acronyms in this post that are used for other power sets. To make this easier, here you go.

OP=Over Powered/Original Poster
DP=Dull Pain
IH=Instant Healing
WP=Will Power
Reg=Regeneration
FH=Fast Healing
Int=Integration
ED=Enhancement Diversification
HP=Hit Point
HP/s=Hit Point per second


Before this turns into a flame war, I want to point out that I want this to be a serious discussion.

In, I believe the brute section, someone pointed out that combined with the level shifts and Rebirth Destiny, that regen scrappers were almost back to the point were they used to be. But how well does regen do on its own?

I used to love playing on my Claws/Reg scrapper back in the day. The Devs decided that regen, the powerset, was overpowered. I personally do not believe that was the case. Now back then I didn't even know the forums existed. I know that on my toon, I was sometimes in awe of what other regens were doing. One day I asked one of them how she was surviving. They had tough, and weave, and combat jumping, and perma hasten buffing there def along with permanent DP. That was how I discovered the forums. Shortly after that the discuccions on "Adjustments" were happening. One forum poster even pointed out to the Devs that there data was inaccurate, something to do with the server they were testing on. I can't find that info though, still looking. So you see, it wasn't Regen that was OP, it was regen along with a slew of pool powers combined that made it OP.

I'll be honest, I do not know where to get the numbers from the powers before the nerfs.
However, according to Paragonwiki, here are a few of the changes.

Regeneration/Instant Healing Max Regeneration buff was slightly reduced. Additionally, it gains less of a boost from each added Enhancement.

Reduced the amount of Regeneration Buff that can be enhanced in Instant Healing and Integration (base values were not changed). A step in bringing Regeneration powerset more in-line with other equivalent powersets.

Changed Regeneration/Instant Healing from a Toggle Power to a Click power.

Slightly reduced the non-enhanceable health regeneration buff of Regeneration/Integration.

Reduced Defense bonus from Pool/Concealment/Stealth. Defense bonus is partially suppressed if you attack.

Reduced Defense bonus from Pool/Flight/Hover (and Kheldian Combat Flight).

Reduced Damage Resistance bonus from Pool/Fighting/Tough. Increased its
Endurance Cost.

Reduced Defense bonus from Pool/Fighting/Weave. Increased its Endurance Cost.

Reduced Defense bonus from Pool/Leadership/Maneuvers.

Reduced Defense bonus from Pool/Leaping/Combat Jumping.

Pool/Speed/Hasten no longer buffs Defense.

And then of course, there was ED.


Now, this is from Scrapper Secondary Information for Issue 7, by BUFFYASUMMERS. Other than the buff to MoG and Resilience, there haven't been any changes to regen, so this information is still completely valid.
FH (3 SO Heal), Int (3 SO Heal), Health (3 SO Heal) - Total 469.3%

469% regen.



This is from Scrapper Issues List - Welcome to Issue 18! from Stupid_Fanboy
Regeneration - unresolved

Balance: Post-Enhancement Diversity, is it still necessary that regen powers have both enhanceable and unenhanceable healing? - MAS0N, 2005-10-11

Balance: In comparison to the Regeneration % that Willpower can achieve, is it still necessary that regen powers have both enhanceable and unenhanceable healing? - SpiderTeo_OC, 2009-02-10

Wishlist: Revive: Revive is not a good power for resuming a fight immediately. Without some defensive power or inspirations, it is better used when the enemy has left the area. A Short large defensive or regen buff in addition to the HP and End recovery would be nice. from several requests - 2010-09-21

Wishlist: Regeneration is the only secondary set that does not have some sort of resistance to the debuff that affects its main strength, in this case Recharge or Regen. from several people – 2009-10-07

Now, two key points from all of this information stands out like a neon light to me.

1. Balance: In comparison to the Regeneration % that Willpower can achieve, is it still necessary that regen powers have both enhanceable and unenhanceable healing? - SpiderTeo_OC, 2009-02-10

2. FH (3 SO Heal), Int (3 SO Heal), Health (3 SO Heal) - Total 469.3%

469% regen.
Now, putting the same slotting recommended here into mids, no sets, just SO's, no procs, no Incarnates gives me 569% at lvl 50 that's 31.75 Hp/s

With WP, the same powers slotted I am getting 519% regen. At lvl 50 28.96% Hp/s. That's a difference of 3 Hp/s.

Now, lets say we bump the foes in range of Rttc up to 2.

617% Regen for a total of 34.4 Hp/s. Willpower has gone from being behind regen by 3 Hp/s to being ahead by approx 2.7 with only one additional foe. Now lets look at something a little more common in game, let's throw some more foes at the melee man.

I think 7 is reasonable.

860% Reg, 47.99 Hp/s

With 10 in range, that's 1006% Regen, or 56.15% Hp/s

But what about with DP?

At 50 with the previous slotting, and DP with 3 heals, regen goes to 50.47 Hp/s.

Well, lets boost WP max Hp by putting three slots into HPT.

72.71 Hp/s

With IH, Regen jumps up to 1369% regen for 76.38 Hp/s
With IH and DP running that brings us a total of 121.4 Hp/s

So to regenerate more health than WP you need all the passives, and IH up.

With hasten, IH is up every 245 seconds with a 90 second period of being active which brings its inactive time 155 seconds. Two and a half minutes.

Now with all of this being said, I really have to wonder, why would I want to roll a regen again? Yes, I understand that with IO's you can increase the max hp, regen and recharge of Regen but the same cand be said of WP.
I personally have a build on Mids that has IH down to just over 60 sec recharge. Of course it would cost more than all of my other toons combined along with using incarnate powers.

Not sure I see the point in listing all of the changes to the set that happened 4+ years ago, but I am always up for a good /Regen discussion.

I see the difference between Regen and WP as a matter of play style. WP is a set and forget set that does what it does so you don't have to. Regen gives you tools to do a little bit of everything, and you have to choose what to use and when. A good player with a good build can get a LOT out of Regen and do some amazing things, it just takes a little more focus and attention to what is going around (and to) you.

Don't be misled by the name of the set. Regen is not just about always healing really fast. It is about using a pretty deep set of reactive tools to adapt to situations as the develop.

The reason I listed the changes was in case some of the newer folks weren't aware of all of the changes.

As far as being misled by the name of the set, I think that's kind of unfair for any newer players. Especially when you read the description of the powerset. I wouldn't mind a change to the name.

I don't have much to say on this topic. As a small pointer, though, for detailed discussions like this it's helpful to spell out power names. Acronyms are re-used thoughout the game, so it takes a lot of concentration for me not to read portions of the opening post as having something to do with Dual Pistols.

I have an idea here... Why not replace IH with RttC, and turn RttC into a +Res instead of +Regen, thus keeping in the respective themes of Willpower and Regeneration? Just a thought.

Some nice history, there, but you forgot a major boon that Regen has that Willpower doesn't: Reconstruction.

Using the standard slotting example you have so far, giving Reconstruction 3 Heal SOs and 3 Recharge SOs, you can heal 49% of your HP every 31 seconds.

Considering how health regeneration works (in "ticks", so 5 hp/sec may mean 10 hp every 2 seconds w/ no regen in between), being able to choose when to heal a lump sum can be beneficial. This only gets better w/ +recharge (something WP doesn't really benefit from)... in my current /regen stalker build, I heal ~55% every 20 secs, and my final build will heal ~60% every 15 seconds

Would it be overpowered if you could use the rezz while still alive for quick burst healing and endurance bar boost? It has a longer recharge than the main burst heal so you couldn't do it as often, but if you healed with the main one and needed a second burst you could use that. I've suggested the same for Empathy in the past (but having that be a full endurance and hp bar heal).

If IH became a toggle again, Id be in love! ^_^

RTTC is nowhere remotely close to the IH toggle as people remember it, i.e. six slotted with golgis back when that meant something. I don't remember if its base was initially 600% or the full 800% regen (or was it 1000%?) but you ended up packing either 1800% or 2400% regen with all said and done. RTTC is nice but old IH is never going to happen again for a variety of fairly obvious reasons. See the uptime of rebirth's ultra-regen period for a window into what the devs currently consider to the maximum allowable buff level for a single player power.

Even without Hami-Os back in the days of IH-toggle I was able to solo every AV in the game, iirc (there may have been 1 or 2 I couldn't kill, but I could fight any one of them indefinitely). While I absolutely loved it, I have to admit that it was insanely OPed.

I think regen does need some love.

My thoughts:

* It needs more resistance vs -regen effects
* It needs a little scaling damage resistance as your health goes down (like SR) to help survive massive alphas.
* Revive needs to be worthwhile. In keeping with regen it should provide a temporary large regen +recovery effect and some strong damage resistance
* It needs good resistance vs -recharge
* I think it needs some resistance to -recovery