Regen! A discussion.

See my claws/regen was rolled in i12 initially back when you could get IH perma with massive recharge...and with it and DP perma, it was a steam roller...more tanky than most tanks even...

Now, I like the set, it just is very toggle and click dependent, not that I mind that, as it was always..."clicky" just less so before. Because of the heavy reliance on toggles, the time period where they drop is just frustrating...

Now, on a current note, I ran 3 itrials tonight, BAF, Lambda and TPN, I died once in TPN...rocks and sticks from the crowds out front of all things when I wasn't paying attention...

That's about normal, I don't usually die and many around me will...but I still feel in certain instances involving AV fights or GM fights, any end sapping just kills the survivability... a little -recovery resists would go a long way...at least let it take longer for my normally full blue bar to be completely gone so I can kill ALL the buggers before they make me squishy again...

Well, when I joined this game in end of '04 or early '05 (the first time), IH could be made perma...with lots of recharge...or you could get close enough it didn't matter (there may have been some small gap when it was down but not enough of one to complain about), either way...if that was before i12 then so be it...I left the game in 2007 until I came back about 4 months ago...so that period of time is not terribly fresh in my mind...I remember the new MoG was either out or about to be about the time I left the game...

I really don't think that's possible. The full set of historical patch notes are available both on the NCSoft support site and on ParagonWiki.

I can't see any changes to Instant Healing since the time you mention. I didn't think I remembered any, and it would be hard for me to overlook: I have three Regens, and one of them is my badge character, so one or the other of them gets play time regularly.

From what I can see, IH has for that entire time had a base recharge rate of 650s and a duration of 90s. Because recharge buffs have a hard maximum of +400%, the absolute maximum attainable recharge will reduce a power to 1/5 of its base recharge time. 650s/5 = 130s, so you would have had a minimum of 40s downtime, ignoring the 1.3s activation time.

And I'd be surprised if you were actually running at the recharge cap.

Edit: 2004 was the year the game came out. I12 was in 2008. Back in 2004 and until Aug 2005, IH was a toggle. I couldn't imagine that was what you were talking about, because that was pretty much the pivotal change that made Regen what it is now, and I didn't figure you'd be mixing up recharge-based perma with toggle behavior.

/em popcorn.

This really takes me back.


It's also my experience that Regen is fine in the end-game. I haven't felt weaker on it than any other melee set I've run through the trials. The trials are very bursty which is a major weakness for Regen, but the insane buffs getting flung around, especially during the main fights add all sorts of defense and resistance that helps.

Leveling has been helped with the addition of the debuff resistance. In an SO only world, it's just as tough for the DEF sets to do crazy things as it is for regen.

Any IO problems are endemic to IOs and not Regen, per se.

...So its survivable because you can run away around a corner, and heal back up quickly?

Well...ok then; personally if I have a melee character that has to run away from melee in order to survive in all but the most extreme scenarios, I consider that to be a problem.

Obviously, tolerances for that sort of thing differ; mine is low.

I want my melee types to be able to get stuck in and stay there. And even though I team a lot, I expect my toons to be able to solo effectively and not have to rely on teammates for buffs or support. The ability of good melee toons to be completely self sufficient and survivable is what attracts me to them.

Do I have terminal Scrapperlock? Maybe. But I embrace my smash-faceness tendencies and I don't consider "run away! run away!" to be a good "tactic"; at least not for me. I like sets that can take a beating. Brute Regen is better at it than Scrapper, but other Brute sets are, IME, better.

Maybe Regen is fine and it's all just me. Maybe I'm just making different value judgements regarding what is acceptable levels of performance to suit me. Maybe Regen really is a little sub-par and could use a few small tweaks to re-tune it and keep it competitive and relevant. Maybe none of it really matters and there's no point commenting on it. Who is to say, really? {shrug}

Regen does infact regenerate more than willpower when you take IH and RTTC out of the picture. If you count IH and RTTC you are no longer comparing passive regeneration because IH is a temporary click and RTTC is based on foe density.

With Willpower you just hope to stand there and take it, regen on the other hand has the ability to hit reconstruction, moment of glory, instant healing or dull pain to scale up at the right time. Reconstruction amounts of 50 hp/sec near the top end of recharge and healing enhancement, even though it only happens in 12-18 second bursts. MoG makes you practically unkillable for 15 seconds, which amounts to around 500-700 hp regenerated.

Willpower is slightly more durable than a regen who doesn't use all their powers at once or even timed well, but willpower can't really increase it's survivability outside of strength of will. Willpower is either unkillable or it is mathematically going to die over time.

Of course the same is true of regen but the difference is that regen requires player input such that you have a direct effect on living or dying outside of just mathematical equations.

As far as changes to regen go, I'd get rid of the unenhanceable attribute in integration and then I'd change the unenhanceable portion of instant healing to an upfront unenhanceable heal.

I'd also add endurance drain resistance to QR.

Well, I think "run away" has degrees. Is "step out of melee range" running away? Some people might think so. I would consider "running away" needing to at least go break line of sight, even if just briefly. I have to step away with SO'd Regen reasonably often, but with IO'd regen hardly ever.

It's important to understand that old Regen with pre-ED toggle IH was performing at levels that defense/resist sets with IOs do today back when all anyone had was SOs.

Because of how the math works out, there's no perfect balance point for a set that's so reliant on HP recovery that will let it not be too strong in an SO world and "strong enough" in an IO world. The simplest brute-force change that would do this would be to make it look more like WP by giving it +Defense that people could stack pool powers and IO bonuses on. Without that it will simply never be able to stand and take it on the chin the way other sets can. That's just the nature of HP recovery being an additive survival tool where defense and resist are multiplicative ones.

Edit: And I should note that I'm not advocating such a change. I'm just pointing out that, in terms of mitigation mechanics, that would be what was required. And were such a change to happen, I'm sure it would come with offsetting changes elsewhere.

Unless, of course, you add that defense yourself as one easily can between things like weave and maneuvers and set bonuses. Since when is WP on SOs one of the stronger defensive sets? It gets low resists, very low defense, moderate +HP and quite good regen. What's good about it is that you can build on all of these things together and come up with something very diversely protected. At this point it feels like we're comparing IOed WP to SOed regen, and that's hardly fair. Under the same IOing conditions, regen is going to perform just about as well. For high end builds, the tradeoff is confuse and fear protection and a little DDR versus weakness to those things in exchange for extremely fine control over your own defensive performance.

Regen is a passive mitigation ... just like Def or Res. self heal is an active one, like a KB or hold. Regen has 4 active powers and ONLY 3 passive ones. They need to fix this. In a fight, I spend more time trying to stay alive than I do killing.

YAY ... I just healed back 50% of my HP ... too bad I spent the time of 2 attacks to do it.

Crap, all my heals are on cool down, I'll revive when my team finishes the mob I died to.

Regen is a horrific set as is and needs fixed.

in short: a required change is to change at least one active to a passive.

have a 100% buff to the regen ability, or add 3X the current resistance.

Honestly, I feel this thread is becoming less and less helpful: it's degenerated into "Regen sucks b/c my Regen keeps dying" vs. "Regen is fine b/c my Regen never dies" posts (note: I'm guilty of this as well ).

I say, we hit the restart button, and try to be more constructive than "I [don't] die!" posts:

If you feel regen needs some help, why do you think it's lacking and how can it be made better?

Maybe putting up some builds (SOs as well as decked out IO) for comparison so those of us that think Regen is invincible can help those that think it's squishy?

EDIT: in the spirit of such a suggestion, here's my build: It's almost done: just you can choose the alternates for Golden Dragonfly, Waterspout, Tough and Soaring Dragon to see what the final product will be (also, replace the Panacea proc w/ a Numina's Heal/Rech). W/ the level shift, I solo at +0/x6 without touching my heals, +0/x8 actually using DP and Reconstruction. I'll also eventually get Rebirth instead of Barrier, but I feel that, unless Rebirth is T4, Barrier's better.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.951
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Mord Maedchen: Level 50 Mutation Stalker
Primary Power Set: Ninja Blade
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(3), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(29), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(31)
Level 1: Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 2: Flashing Steel -- Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(7), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(31), Erad-Acc/Rchg:30(31), Erad-Dmg/Rchg:30(33)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Panac-Heal/+End:50(5), RgnTis-Regen+:30(7), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(9), Numna-Heal:50(11), Mrcl-Heal:40(11)
Level 6: Assassin's Blade -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(13), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(15), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(15), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(17), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:50(17)
Level 8: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(13), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:40(19), Dct'dW-Heal:50(19)
Level 10: Build Up -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(21)
Level 12: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(23), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(27), Dct'dW-Heal:50(43)
Level 14: Placate -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(43)
Level 16: Integration -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(21), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(25), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(27)
Level 18: Boxing -- Mako-Dam%:50(A)
Level 20: Resilience -- ResDam-I:50(A)
Level 22: Tough -- ResDam-I:50(A), ResDam-I:50(34), EndRdx-I:50(45)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(34)
Level 26: Soaring Dragon -- EndRdx-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(40), Dmg-I:50(42), FrcFbk-Rechg%:50(42), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(42), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(43)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), RechRdx-I:50(33)
Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- Acc-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(34), EndRdx-I:50(36), Dmg-I:50(36), Dmg-I:50(36), FrcFbk-Rechg%:50(37)
Level 35: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37)
Level 38: Divine Avalanche -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(46)
Level 41: Water Spout -- Amaze-Stun:50(A), Amaze-Acc/Rchg:50(45), RechRdx-I:50(45), DefDeb-I:50(46), Dmg-I:50(46)
Level 44: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 47: Summon Guardian -- ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg:50(48), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg:50(50), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:30(50)
Level 49: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Void Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
Level 50: Paralytic Total Radial Conversion
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Assassination
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Numna-Heal:50(40), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(40)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(39), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(39), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(39)

I think you're absolutely right, and I think there's some fairly simple explanations behind it.

Regen played to the edge will go deep, deep into the red on health. And sometimes, that means it will get hit before it can do anything about it and die. It also means that it takes a lot more attention to timing using Regen's click powers in order to survive.

Many folks who are used to even just "strong" resists (say around 30-50%) do not experience these deep excursions into low HP. Many folks who are used to "strong" defense (say 30%+) do see this, because several defense sets have minimal resists behind them so the hits that land can hurt a lot, but the excursions tends to be infrequent because the statistics of high defense make it uncommon. There's more time to react to them with any self heals or green inspirations.

I suspect this HP yo-yo creates a perception issue, where people cannot play a Regen character they same way they would play one with strong resists or defense, and they decide that this makes it inferior.

There's no question that using Regen must take time away in power activations at minimum. I think deciding whether that objectively measurable cost is acceptable is highly subjective. I find it leaves me able to do things like solo pylons on IO'd builds, so I easily find it acceptable.

Edit: My current, tricked out IO builds. Not for the faint of pocket book. Also these come with no claim of being fully optimal. Some things are the way they are because I like them that way more than that they actually eke out the best performance.

DM/Regen/Soul Scrapper

Well, I already posted in this thread that I don't think Regen is a very good choice for a "tanking" playstyle, where I was going off of someone else's definition of "tanking" which is to stand there and take all the damage for everyone on the team.

I also mentioned that this is not easy to do with some other Brute powersets, even with IOs. Firey Aura isn't very durable compared to its peers either. You can't "tank" with all Brute secondaries equally.

Edit: But let me be clear: "Can't tank for a team" is not interchangeable with "a horrific set that needs fixing".