Quote:
I'm of two minds when it comes to buying IOs on the market.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
So this isn't about "avoiding" gameplay. Or not "earning" it through gameplay. It's about convenience. Nothing more.
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On the one hand, I definitely agree with the above statement about convenience.
On the other, I wonder if having them available in the store makes the in-game prices higher which leads to people buying them in the store because they can't afford them in game.
With that said, I have purchased IOs in the Paragon Market when they've been on sale. Not so much because I can't afford them in game. I mean, I can easily afford them but paying 250m inf for a level 35 IO just "feels" wrong.
At least this type of IO anyways.
For something like a Luck of the Gambler 7.5% Recharge or a Numina Recov/Regen, things like that are always on, global boosts, etc and I can justify the cost to myself.
Bottom line for me - let people play/pay as they want. Personally, I think I'm more on the side of IOs being in the Paragon Market are bad but hey, it's your dime. You spend it how you want it.
/2 inf
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Quote:
Honestly, having them available on the Paragon Market should help crash the price down to more reasonable levels.
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
I'm of two minds when it comes to buying IOs on the market.
On the one hand, I definitely agree with the above statement about convenience. On the other, I wonder if having them available in the store makes the in-game prices higher which leads to people buying them in the store because they can't afford them in game. With that said, I have purchased IOs in the Paragon Market when they've been on sale. Not so much because I can't afford them in game. I mean, I can easily afford them but paying 250m inf for a level 35 IO just "feels" wrong. At least this type of IO anyways. For something like a Luck of the Gambler 7.5% Recharge or a Numina Recov/Regen, things like that are always on, global boosts, etc and I can justify the cost to myself. Bottom line for me - let people play/pay as they want. Personally, I think I'm more on the side of IOs being in the Paragon Market are bad but hey, it's your dime. You spend it how you want it. /2 inf |
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When availability goes up price goes down.
Quote:
We'll see. I know Kinetic Combats are some of the most sought after IOs out there, and have always been somewhat expensive, but they're the highest right now that I remember them being.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Honestly, having them available on the Paragon Market should help crash the price down to more reasonable levels.
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I could be remembering wrong, but I had generally seen them in the 25m - 50m realm for the longest time.
Recently I've seen them 75m - 250m.
It's one of those things where, okay, you can always get them at a set price with one currency vs farming in game for them and either buying them with merits of influence.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
When availability goes up price goes down.
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So if people can buy them with Paragon Points, either the supply in game will be higher because the "suppliers" are still putting them up on the market but people aren't buying them, or the "suppliers" stop farming/grinding/rolling etc and the existing supply is dwindled down so the prices go up.
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In a market shift it can be more complex. There could be a lot of marketeers with 10xorders at X (a relatively low value) for KC. When the price drops these will kick it back up until the marketeers start to realize they are the only ones buying the stock OR they are artificially willing to keep it propped. (Very doable unfortunately) There are long treatises on general economics that are applicable here, and almost equally long specific CoH marketeering treatises available on the boards to explain it all. But, in the end one force will win out. Greater supply will lower the price. If I can buy a set of KC for the price of a fancy coffee or spend 500mil to a 1,000mil in game currency to buy them I will forego the nonfat halfwhip soy mocha choco latte with a spritz. (I actually drink black coffee, that was just an example. People that drink that kinda crap also love Klondike bars...) A lot of other people will too. That doesnt mean the price will drop today because they are on the market. And ps, a neat rule of thumb is since we are talking about it we are actually driving the price up :-) (people see the thread and buy some nowah!!!)
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True. It'll bring the prices down, on those IOs. Purples are already costing up to 800 million inf just for one and PvP IOs cost over a billion. Take a moment to consider how much those will cost when anyone that wants to can just go to the paragon market and buy an IO then save all their inf for those same ultra rares that you're after. Do you really want to spend billions of inf on a single purple or are you going to suggest that they put those on the paragon market as well?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Honestly, having them available on the Paragon Market should help crash the price down to more reasonable levels.
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Quote:
This I actually see nothing wrong with since you're replacing IOs that are already acquired in game. I'm assuming you'll be taking them off and then putting them on other characters or posting them on the market which will help drive the market on the auctionhouse. It's when people avoid trying to earn these things in game entirely and make the paragon market their one stop shop that I think it'll be bad for the game.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I want to make this clear. The builds I put these on were ALREADY sporting Kin Combats and LOTGs. I simply unslotted and replaced.
So this isn't about "avoiding" gameplay. Or not "earning" it through gameplay. It's about convenience. Nothing more. |
Quote:
I would assume that you mean your friends on this game. I'm also guessing that some of the things you enjoy doing with your friends is actually playing the game, meaning running tips, regular missions, task forces, and incarnate trials. Those are all ways to earn the enhancements that this thread is about so if you're doing that then why bother going and buying them off the market when you're already doing things that will get them for you in game?
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Originally Posted by rsclark
Why not just buy them off the market and spend my time with my friends doing things I enjoy instead?
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Quote:
The problem is that you believe this is an economics problem, when its a psychological problem. Pay to win isn't referencing an economic problem demanding a solution, its a psychological perception problem which has no solution. If you enact things that create the perception that your game is pay to win, you stand an extremely high probability of damaging or destroying your player population. That's simple reality. The question then is whether its worth the risk. If it offers no radical benefit that can offset that risk, its not worth it no matter how economically viable the suggestion is.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
This. Wrong. On so many levels. And with the bonus of showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what people with cash on hand will do to circumvent the whole argument anyways. Just so wrong.
Lets start with some softballs. I'm just gonna lob them over and you dont even have to connect, just see if you understand the whole thing. If you are using I/Os you are probably either A) an experienced CoH player. B) an experienced MMORPG player playing many games If you are using I/O sets to build top notch characters you are either C) a very experiened CoH player D) a moderately experienced CoH player who is smart enough to get good help E) A very experienced gamer who picks up new systems fast F) a freaking genius Now, if you are A, C, or D you have enough funds on hand to kit out at least one character fully just from what you have accumulated. If you are B or E you are probably gonna find a quick way to come up with the necessary in-game resources to kit out a character. I got nothing on F, they exist, and they do things different than me. I am sure the Fs will figure something out and be able to have a character I/O'd how they want pretty quick. So, your basic premise is gone. But I aint done. What you are really saying is "You can only have one or two characters fully I/o'd perfectly. If you want to have a top notch character thats all you get. If its your main and you do not want to shatter it for the shineys suck it up and play a SO build. And lets play hardball now. Cause you obviously have not been playing the game I have. Have you ever noticed, say, somebody offering to sell in game currency by the billions? What do you think, they been spamming that crap in game forever and have made no money? Lets just pretend some people who play our game have used their services. I know it unthinkable, but I suspect based on the fact they will not stop spamming that they have had some small success. What do you think players do with the billions they buy? That's right. They buy I/Os. Wow, youre coming right along. Okay here's where we start to run now. The Devs could be getting all the money that is going to chinese prison guards (a lot of the farmers are actually prisoners, read a little once in awhile) and the players who want to throw buckets of money at the game could actually be giving it to NCSoft. Jeez, people irritate me when they have no clue about economics and logic. |
The existence of RMT doesn't create the perception problem, what creates it is if they become to pervasive or successful, or if the developers aren't seen to be opposing them.
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Too many different posts to quote so I am just going to go at it assuming people have taken the time read the entire thread (I know, I'm stupid or something).
Anyways, I'm not completely against the idea of buying IOs on the Paragon Market since it would be a hell of lot quicker to IO out characters than doing in through the auction house. I get completely worn out of the game spending 30-45 minutes trying to get a good price on IO's and so it takes me a long time to completely IO a character. Maybe I'm doing it really wrong, but the entire process of purchasing, crafting and slotting takes way too long. Take out two of those steps and I'm on my way lickity-split (saying that makes me feel old). However, I'm cheap and don't really want the option to spend the money on that.
However there is the point about suffering for your character. That isn't completely wrong. In fact it is a lot right, you just have suffer in the right way. It's the idea of the value of creation. When you have to work to create something you value it more. If we value our characters we'll play longer, we'll pay more. Of course many of us have already gone through the process of getting our characters to where they are now so we've already been heavily involved in their creation and so have a higher value for our alts than anyone else's.
That isn't very clear. Let me try again. We value more what we create (more than what other people value what we create - clearly I value my lv50 more than your lv50, it's mine). If we skip steps we will still value what we create and even to a same value, but if we skip too many steps then we disassociate with the creation process and no longer value the creation.
So we buy a lv50 completely IO'ed out and we play with them for a little while but we really don't connect with the alt. Re-costume them, re-name them... nothing they aren't our alt, we don't care. Maybe. I'm not going to say that is certain, but there is science behind that to support that (check out Dan Ariely and the Ikea Effect). Just some player psychology to think about.
Now the only thing I want to talk about it economics. While psychology may work for our players, economics doesn't work as well. When we apply economics to the in game market we are making some bad assumptions. And the first one being that the in game economy should work like the real economy. It doesn't. There are a lot factors that change that market. Hyper-inflation. People willing to just sit on expensive items because they have no incentive to lower their prices. The fact that no one is going to broke in game. You can't go bankrupt, and we have no regulations. And marketeers (who would be limited by regulations). I've kind of rambled on too long here, but my point is that the in game economy doesn't necessarily work the same way the real world economy works so predicting how things are going to happen doesn't really work.
Okay feel free to tear at my arguments, I'll do my best to keep up.
Current Mains:
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Quote:
This is also a better version of what I was thinking. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is that you believe this is an economics problem, when its a psychological problem. Pay to win isn't referencing an economic problem demanding a solution, its a psychological perception problem which has no solution. If you enact things that create the perception that your game is pay to win, you stand an extremely high probability of damaging or destroying your player population. That's simple reality. The question then is whether its worth the risk. If it offers no radical benefit that can offset that risk, its not worth it no matter how economically viable the suggestion is.
The existence of RMT doesn't create the perception problem, what creates it is if they become to pervasive or successful, or if the developers aren't seen to be opposing them. |
Current Mains:
151 Proof - Fire/Fire Tank (50) - Triumph
Celestial Hammer - TW/Elec Brute (50) - Triumph
Amphetami - Crab Spider (24) - Triumph
Global @TheDangerousNacho
Quote:
Arcanaville does that to many people. Quite often, actually.
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Originally Posted by Sarha
This is also a better version of what I was thinking.
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Quote:
Exactly.|
Originally Posted by FNG
This I actually see nothing wrong with since you're replacing IOs that are already acquired in game. I'm assuming you'll be taking them off and then putting them on other characters or posting them on the market which will help drive the market on the auctionhouse.
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Quote:
| It's when people avoid trying to earn these things in game entirely and make the paragon market their one stop shop that I think it'll be bad for the game. |
If someone with more money than time wants to goin and cash-buy everything for a toon's setup? Let him!
When he burns out in 6-12 months after having "done everything", he's gone, but Paragon still got his money!
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Quote:
First off, don't discount mugging so quickly. You get to choose your own hours, be your own boss, get to be out in the fresh air, meet new people and socialize with them every day... Sounds like a job with a couple nice perks to me. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Exactly.
Maybe yes. Maybe no. Unlike Inf, real money isn't normally available in infinite quantities. Yeah, you can run down the street and beat up a guy for the contents of his wallet, but that's usually not THAT renumerative. If someone with more money than time wants to goin and cash-buy everything for a toon's setup? Let him! When he burns out in 6-12 months after having "done everything", he's gone, but Paragon still got his money! |
Not only that but, with an MMO I don't think they'd want to have the players suffering from burn out and leaving just so they can get a quick infusion of cash. I'd think the devs would want something that will keep people interested for a prolonged period of time, especially considering how big an impact word of mouth can make on a games playerbase.
Quote:
Psychology is a huge part of economics as it is. That's why we get so much talk of "consumer confidence" as an important factor in economic growth and why we tend to get market "bubbles."|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is that you believe this is an economics problem, when its a psychological problem.
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As far as in-game market prices, there will probably be downward pressure on the AH for the specific items available for real money. But since the supply of influence is not reduced by the market other items will probably go up in cost. Unless more ways of removing influence from the economy are added the items on the AH as a whole aren't going down in price.
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Quote:
You bring up a fair point Arcanaville. I believe I addressed the issue in my original diatri... er, statement. But I was knocking stuff around pretty fast. What i was trying to say is if people are going for high end builds they are pretty accessible, even without the Paragon Market. It is a really big "if." I played CoV for more than a year using just SOs. If you get into using I/Os, and specifically using them to create monster builds, then the avenue is fully open to you in game to do that (and has been for years) without spending a penny in the Paragon Market beyond being VIP or buying a string of invention licenses, or whatever tier Premium makes I/Os permanently available. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is that you believe this is an economics problem, when its a psychological problem. Pay to win isn't referencing an economic problem demanding a solution, its a psychological perception problem which has no solution. If you enact things that create the perception that your game is pay to win, you stand an extremely high probability of damaging or destroying your player population. That's simple reality. The question then is whether its worth the risk. If it offers no radical benefit that can offset that risk, its not worth it no matter how economically viable the suggestion is.
The existence of RMT doesn't create the perception problem, what creates it is if they become to pervasive or successful, or if the developers aren't seen to be opposing them. |
To sum it up, it is my belief it cannot be a perception problem. If you become aware (invention enlightened?) enough to be deep enough into the game to be building these types of characters you can do so pretty easily with not much more in game effort than it requires to tier 4 the 5 Incarnate powers. And I mean from flat broke to final build.
To make it very clear here is one extremely simple way to do it. Take 5 characters 20+. I suggest Brutes for the ease of this, and SS/Invul Brute at 20 is a monster vs. 20th mobs. Each Brute can be leveled to 20 in a couple hours in the DFB Sewer trial. Each day run 5 tips Hero or villain, I prefer Hero for this. Also run the SSAs. Generate 35 HeroVillain A-Merits for each of your 5 Brutes. It will take a couple hours a day work to do all 5 Brutes. It will take about 2 months to finish the project. Convert the A-Merits to Glad +3% def I/Os. Sell them for 10,000,000,000 on the market. Or sell them for slightly more off market and not pay any fees. Thats 10 billion to finance a build. Thats the way I would do it, I am very sure that other people have easier ways, that one is just very much my style. Set goal, look at amount of work, knock out the work, collect the reward, do the business. ps, do the tip missions solo, set at -1/+0. The hardest part of it each day should just be collecting the initial tips.
ps, most high end builds are less than 10billion unless you are talking Player vs. Player builds. And that is another thread.
So, pay to win? Nope. Pay to be lazy.
pps, if I wasn't sitting on 3 current City projects and looking at a 4th/poss5th when i22 launches I would start this right now myself. As it is I am halfway tilting at it with 1 Brute that I am soloing the entire game Blueside with. Doing his tips daily are nothing compared to soloing the game, and an extra 2 billion+ is always nice.
Quote:
And when they catch you, you get a nice cozy cell, three square a day and all the butt-sex you can handle...
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Originally Posted by FNG
First off, don't discount mugging so quickly. You get to choose your own hours, be your own boss, get to be out in the fresh air, meet new people and socialize with them every day... Sounds like a job with a couple nice perks to me.
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Maybe some people prefer to be ripped off by Ncsoft for enchancements, rather than ripped off by other players market prices?
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Quote:
Spoken as if you have no idea how markets work, especially the consignment system CoX uses.|
Originally Posted by Slazenger
Maybe some people prefer to be ripped off by Ncsoft for enchancements, rather than ripped off by other players market prices?
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It is nearly impossible to be ripped off in CoX unless you deliberately set up the transaction that way yourself instead of using the consignment house. Software glitches or typing errors aside it is literally impossible to be ripped off when using the consignment house. And even then a typing error is you ripping yourself off.
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Quote:
You believe that if you will, but I have seen 1st hand what people will do to make their billions.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Spoken as if you have no idea how markets work, especially the consignment system CoX uses.
It is nearly impossible to be ripped off in CoX unless you deliberately set up the transaction that way yourself instead of using the consignment house. Software glitches or typing errors aside it is literally impossible to be ripped off when using the consignment house. And even then a typing error is you ripping yourself off. |
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
Quote:
Unless you don't want to have to wait for someone to post the common salvage that isn't worth anything but has been artificially 500,000 influence. I mean if you wait sure you won't be ripped off and you'll eventually get it for the price you want, but that is also boring. Although in the grand scheme of getting influence, 500k ain't that much - just frustrating to pay that much for something that is common.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Spoken as if you have no idea how markets work, especially the consignment system CoX uses.
It is nearly impossible to be ripped off in CoX unless you deliberately set up the transaction that way yourself instead of using the consignment house. Software glitches or typing errors aside it is literally impossible to be ripped off when using the consignment house. And even then a typing error is you ripping yourself off. |
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151 Proof - Fire/Fire Tank (50) - Triumph
Celestial Hammer - TW/Elec Brute (50) - Triumph
Amphetami - Crab Spider (24) - Triumph
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Quote:
This.......|
Originally Posted by Sarha
Unless you don't want to have to wait for someone to post the common salvage that isn't worth anything but has been artificially 500,000 influence. I mean if you wait sure you won't be ripped off and you'll eventually get it for the price you want, but that is also boring. Although in the grand scheme of getting influence, 500k ain't that much - just frustrating to pay that much for something that is common.
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It also drives the price of the already made enhancement up as well, why fork out the extra for the salvage when you can by-pass the recipe and crafting fee and get it already made.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarha
Unless you don't want to have to wait for someone to post the common salvage that isn't worth anything but has been artificially 500,000 influence. I mean if you wait sure you won't be ripped off and you'll eventually get it for the price you want, but that is also boring. Although in the grand scheme of getting influence, 500k ain't that much - just frustrating to pay that much for something that is common.
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It's a two-way street, though. I can just as easily acquire that low tier salvage and sell it for 500k. The value of money goes down as we have more of it. Things aren't really more expensive, and you aren't really getting any richer. Gotta ride that wave~
Quote:
If your not getting any richer what's the point of acquiring low tier salvage and putting a 500k price tag on it?
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
It's a two-way street, though. I can just as easily acquire that low tier salvage and sell it for 500k. The value of money goes down as we have more of it. Things aren't really more expensive, and you aren't really getting any richer. Gotta ride that wave~
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Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
_________
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