City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

The new 52... minus 6

80sBaby

By 80sBaby,
Posted on: 2012-01-13 24:14 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Most 90s comic books weren't even a good idea in the 90s. The 90s convinced me to take a break from comics altogether. If it wasn't for Warren Ellis taking over Stormwatch and starting his run on Transmetropolitan, I might never have come back at all.
Bah, the '90s gave us the Valiant & CrossGen lines, and Dark Horse got their hands on the Star Wars license (among being an awesome place for other franchise comics). Also DC and Marvel got more right than wrong. The '90s gets a bad rap in comics that is completely undeserved because what folks remember most is crap like the Clone Saga and most of the Image books.

 

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90s comics... well

KnightSaga
Contagion
Cataclysm
No Man's Land
Tim Drake (though technically 80s by a few months)
Stephanie Brown
Cassandra Cain
Young Justice

hrmmm Yeah I'll take that for reasons to love the 90s.

 

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I despise the writer of Batwoman and that series if it continues this same course needs to end. Some people might be confused why I called it disrespectful sexist trash, though... Well that's easy. The writer isn't treating women as equals, but rather treating them as inferior by removing all the males from the series or having them appear as little as possible, mixing that with the killing off of Renee Montoya, one of the strongest lesbians in Dc, along with demoting Capt Sawyer, another of them, and making out like Flamebird is an inexperienced weak little girl when she should be on equal ground as Nightwing in terms of experience and such. The whole thing reeks of insecure bad writing from a writer that doesn't know how to portray characters right nor treat the material with respect to the history of the characters.

By the way... I haven't read this month's Batwoman, but last month they pretty much killed Flamebird (with a small chance of survival) and had Sawyer act completely out of character.


As far as Teen Titans. Lobdell is hit or miss I find and the throwing new characters in was obviously a mandate rather than anything creative. Another thing to consider is that some books are only good if you look at them from a given perspective... which is what Lobdell's writing for Red Hood is... I hope that it a completely meta rip on the whole of the DCnU because it reads perfectly as that, but it could very well just be a horrible book too.


As far as Damian... I have read most of what he's in... I like him, but not with that writer and not with Bruce. Damian should be with Nightwing as everyone thought would happen because Damian is a bad fit with Bruce, but a great fit with Nightwing. That type of thing is really telling of DC in general that they don't understand how things work and why some things are better and others are worse.


As far as Nightwing... Don't read it >.> it's a series of arcs that are ok, but then the creative team changes or there is a mandate and everything is dropped or changed. Nightwing in general is one of the worst comics as a whole due to the entire enterprise that is DC, the writers, editors, and corporation. Basically, Dick is intertwined with Batman always and will never get away from his connection with Bruce no matter what happens because all the people at DC keep dragging them back together while all the other Batfamily are allowed to go off with their own things... Tim Drake was less effected by the events in Batman comics than Nightwing was while they both had titles and Nightwing was supposed to be living in another city and not working with Bruce at all.
The only sexist is you. So there is a comic depicting women and stars a mostly women cast and your response is that the book is inferior because the lack of males. How...male of you. You could not be more wrong about this book; though your wrong about majority of the comics you comment on. Which leads me to my next statement.

Been reading your comments over the last few months and by the under tone you act like your word is gospel and your opinion is the one that matters and when people disagree you attack them, thinly veiled, but attack none less. I want to tell you something; your opinion does matter. Nope not one bit. Like my opinion does not matter either. Just to me. So do everyone a favor and write how you feel and stop attacking people.If someone disagree with you do not try to state why they are wrong but just shrug your shoulders and move on.

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Originally Posted by Juteboxhero View Post
The only sexist is you. So there is a comic depicting women and stars a mostly women cast and your response is that the book is inferior because the lack of males. How...male of you. You could not be more wrong about this book; though your wrong about majority of the comics you comment on. Which leads me to my next statement.
Reread what I said. Think about what I'm saying before you speak, then post your response. You obviously don't understand what I said and I'll be nice by not making a long post explaining how what you said is sexist, though perhaps yo were trying to be funny. meh.

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I want to tell you something; your opinion does matter.
sorry, but i found this typo funny and because it's my opinion it certainly matters.

 

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
The whole Nightwing joins the Police story which is cool and interesting when handled right, but this isn't being handled right as is the whole dissaffected youth that doesn't like their "mentor" thing.
Sharing an occupation doesn't make their stories the same. Their characters, motivations and the likely results are different.

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i have no problem with it, but it's not original like you said.
Actually, I never called the Kingdom original. I said I like the concept and find their backstory intriguing.

You brought up originality.

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He's lame and the story is bad written if he is because it gave it away badly and if it's not then then it's bad for that because then those scenes add nothing to the story... actually in a lot of cases they take away from them in the way they are presented and where they are presented.
Unless it's not the story you think it is. There may well be another reason for david to remember his brother. It gives us more insight into the character.

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Mandates are fine when there is actually inspiration behind them. Adding minority characters just because doesn't do anyone any good because they almost all come off as trash because they are noone's passion and vision in which case they are shabbily thrown together and then they go "see noone wants to buy that"
Passion doesn't automatically eqate quality as I'm sure Leifeld and Loeb were very passionate about Youngblood and Rulk, respectively. Didn't help the story at all, though.

On the other hand, Brian Azzarello doesn't seem particularly amped up about Wonder Woman yet has one of the most critically/commercially succesful runs so far. Definately better than Gail's run and nobody can accuse her of being dispassionate about Diana.

And who says it was "just because?" DC felt the character has potebtial otherwise why even bother paying people to work on it. They are a business and, without some idea it would pay off, they're not gonna do it. Obviously there's a market for Batwing as it's selling more than 1 issue. Maybe not as much as other heroes may bring in but it was worth the shot and they did put quality talent on it. Seems like it was thought out more than you think it was.

 

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ugh...really folks? People are whining over the friggin content in a comic book? Lemme ask you this....is anyone holding a weapon to your person and forcing you to read these comic books that you consider....inferior?

I get that people have to "vent" their frustrations about what they have read and why they feel it is bad for this reason or the other....

Personally I learned some time ago that my money does more talking than coming on a message board and complaining. Companies listen more to the bottom line than the "fans"...Why do you think I absolutely refuse to purchase anything that Mr. Liefield is involved with? I cannot stand his artwork...personally people with his level of ahem "talent" should be limited to childrens comics and nothing else. Same goes for some writers as well.

There are just some writers and artists I cannot stand and as such they do not get my money....that is simply all there is to it...

You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully

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We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker

 

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Originally Posted by BlackSun17 View Post
I imagine that you also read Planetary - IMO the best of his work.
It is definitely one of the best, although it probably would have been better if I had stumbled across that title after it had concluded. If it has a flaw, its that the ending is very anticlimactic for the readers that were following along as the title unfolded. Geologically.


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Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
i'm still rather fond of Lazarus Churchyard and Global Frequency, but i definitely agree that Planetary was one of his best works.
Transmet is to me the definitive Ellis work. So says the Chair Leg of Truth.

Incidentally, Transmet would make an *awesome* MMO setting. And ironically, our incredibly broken powers system could be perfect for that setting.

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I've voted with my money in regards to the New 52. I've cut my DC books each week, because the majority of the New titles are worse than we had previously. I have yet to find one I liked as much as Secret Six, Birds of Prey, the last few issues of pre-New52 Supergirl, Stephanie Brown's Batgirl, or the last few issues of Justice League of America (the lineup with Supergirl, Jade, Donna Troy, Dick Grayson's Batman, Jessie Quick, Cyborg).

Now, Batwoman is as good as it was before, although the rather cheap way Flamebird was butchered last issue really did tick me off. Detective Comics is still excellent. But seriously, to me it still feels like the best books were cancelled and replaced with 70% trash. This all feels like one big insult from DiDio slapped down on us the readers. Maybe I'm being too harsh on him, but everything I've read and heard out of Dan's mouth backs up the idea that he cares NOTHING about what we enjoy reading, only what he thinks we SHOULD be reading.

Inversely, I've been buying more Marvel stuff. I loved X-23 (and they cancelled her book, too! Geez!), and seeing the Runaways pop back up and Lightspeed join Avengers Academy has been wonderful.

How many readers out there suspect Dan DiDio is already working on his statement about how happy he's going to be to replace the New 52 with whatever yearly gimmick they come up with later this year? I still have no doubt that DC is going to jettison this failing experiment come fall.

 

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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
I've voted with my money in regards to the New 52. I've cut my DC books each week, because the majority of the New titles are worse than we had previously. I have yet to find one I liked as much as Secret Six, Birds of Prey, the last few issues of pre-New52 Supergirl, Stephanie Brown's Batgirl, or the last few issues of Justice League of America (the lineup with Supergirl, Jade, Donna Troy, Dick Grayson's Batman, Jessie Quick, Cyborg).

Now, Batwoman is as good as it was before, although the rather cheap way Flamebird was butchered last issue really did tick me off. Detective Comics is still excellent. But seriously, to me it still feels like the best books were cancelled and replaced with 70% trash. This all feels like one big insult from DiDio slapped down on us the readers. Maybe I'm being too harsh on him, but everything I've read and heard out of Dan's mouth backs up the idea that he cares NOTHING about what we enjoy reading, only what he thinks we SHOULD be reading.

Inversely, I've been buying more Marvel stuff. I loved X-23 (and they cancelled her book, too! Geez!), and seeing the Runaways pop back up and Lightspeed join Avengers Academy has been wonderful.

How many readers out there suspect Dan DiDio is already working on his statement about how happy he's going to be to replace the New 52 with whatever yearly gimmick they come up with later this year? I still have no doubt that DC is going to jettison this failing experiment come fall.
you mean with the whole pandora and horn of crap thing that was cross overed from storm watch to superman and has not appeared at all or been explained since? Nope couldn't possibly be a set up for a cross over...

 

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Originally Posted by 80sBaby View Post
Gonna have to strongly disagree with the idea that Batwing is a combination of Nightwing/Batman. I read the series and there's nothing of Dick there. I can see similarities with Bruce but there are differences, as well. Masacre is easily the best new villain to come along in quite some time and the history of the Kingdom is intriguing.

Imo, it's one of the best written and drwan books of the DCnU. It's definately up there with Snyder's Batman. People are dismissing it out of hand without actually giving it a shot. That's why it's so hard to bring diversity to comics. Nobody really gives new chaacters a chance.
Well having people consider it terrible writing doesn't help.

New books need good writing, a good artist, and time. Time costs money, and these big businesses aren't looking to create new icons that can bring in money in the long term, they're looking for things that can bring in money now.

If I don't enjoy the story from the start, that better be one hell of an artist working on the book for me to keep reading it.

If the story is awesome, I'm more likely to continue reading it if I consider the art work just okay.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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Originally Posted by 80sBaby View Post
As far as "mandates" go, who cares? How else do you think diversity happens? People claim there's not enough different races/gender/preference diversification in comics and when the suits decide to give a new character a shot, it's blasted? It's a no-win situation. Again, how a character came to be is less important to me than how interesting said character is. You nor I have no clue if a Night Runner series would've been good or crap. Just because they didn't go with your choice doesn't mean they made the wrong one.
My only problem when it comes to mandates, is when it needs to take out a main character to replace them with the new character so they can use the original characters name.

I've actually read the 1st four issues of the new Ultimate Spider-Man, that did just that. I really didn't think it was that bad. I do however think they could of left Peter as Spider-Man and made the new one "Spider-Bite" "Spiderwing" "[Insert Adjective here] Spider" instead of giving us someone else as Spider-Man as a way to create the diversity.

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
* THE RAVAGERS - Writer: Howard Mackie. Artist: Ian Churchill. Spinning off from TEEN TITANS and SUPERBOY, this series finds four superpowered teens on the run and fighting against the organization that wants to turn them into supervillains.
This sounds like it could of easily been the a new Gen-13. A title I would of picked up if it had the original team in it.

So far, enjoying Grifter, Suicide Squad and Red Hood and the Outlaws (though I don't care for the memory loss of everyone they did with Starfire, that part is just suckage).

I've been tempted to pick up Vodoo, but it just hasn't peeked my interrest. But I liked the character in the original run of WildCats.

None of the other DC titles have peeked my interrest so far, which is a shame as I was hoping Teen Titans would, but it just hasn't yet. And I personally loved the new look of Tim.

And Red Hood still makes me want a dual pistol gun fu type in CoH.

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Originally Posted by Sevenpenny View Post
ugh...really folks? People are whining over the friggin content in a comic book? Lemme ask you this....is anyone holding a weapon to your person and forcing you to read these comic books that you consider....inferior?

I get that people have to "vent" their frustrations about what they have read and why they feel it is bad for this reason or the other....

Personally I learned some time ago that my money does more talking than coming on a message board and complaining. Companies listen more to the bottom line than the "fans"...Why do you think I absolutely refuse to purchase anything that Mr. Liefield is involved with? I cannot stand his artwork...personally people with his level of ahem "talent" should be limited to childrens comics and nothing else. Same goes for some writers as well.

There are just some writers and artists I cannot stand and as such they do not get my money....that is simply all there is to it...
And yet there are people who spend money on his books. Why does this annoy me? Because he's being put on books with characters i like (Hawk & Dove, Hawkman, Deathstroke for example) and unlike the other more popular characters, they only get 1 title per month (if that, i still have to wait for my new JSA book), so unless someone says something, NOT buying something isn't just telling the companies you don't like an artist or a writer, it's saying you don't want to read comics about that character and instead want to read another Batman, Superman, Wolverine, or Spider-Man title.

Why are we griping about it here? Because there are other fans here who share those same frustrations. Will it get anything done, not if all that's done is some kvetching here. But it does help to realize the opinion you have isn't yours alone. Rao knows knowing other people hate some of this tripe keeps me from tromping down to a con with a machete.

 

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Originally Posted by Veritech View Post
And yet there are people who spend money on his books. Why does this annoy me? Because he's being put on books with characters i like (Hawk & Dove, Hawkman, Deathstroke for example) and unlike the other more popular characters, they only get 1 title per month (if that, i still have to wait for my new JSA book), so unless someone says something, NOT buying something isn't just telling the companies you don't like an artist or a writer, it's saying you don't want to read comics about that character and instead want to read another Batman, Superman, Wolverine, or Spider-Man title.

Why are we griping about it here? Because there are other fans here who share those same frustrations. Will it get anything done, not if all that's done is some kvetching here. But it does help to realize the opinion you have isn't yours alone. Rao knows knowing other people hate some of this tripe keeps me from tromping down to a con with a machete.
*sigh* I never thought of it that way. And you're right. Not buying the comic makes them think not enough people likes the comics. :/

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Well having people consider it terrible writing doesn't help.

New books need good writing, a good artist, and time. Time costs money, and these big businesses aren't looking to create new icons that can bring in money in the long term, they're looking for things that can bring in money now.

If I don't enjoy the story from the start, that better be one hell of an artist working on the book for me to keep reading it.

If the story is awesome, I'm more likely to continue reading it if I consider the art work just okay.
Except "good writing" is subjective. I haven't seen "people" say the writing's bad only 1 person on this board. Most of the other boards I visit (DCMB, KMC and CBR) have people happy with the book. Just not very many are trying it.

Oh, and have you seen the art on Batwing? Copiel is killing it!

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
My only problem when it comes to mandates, is when it needs to take out a main character to replace them with the new character so they can use the original characters name.

I've actually read the 1st four issues of the new Ultimate Spider-Man, that did just that. I really didn't think it was that bad. I do however think they could of left Peter as Spider-Man and made the new one "Spider-Bite" "Spiderwing" "[Insert Adjective here] Spider" instead of giving us someone else as Spider-Man as a way to create the diversity.
But you do understand the rationale behind that though, right? A new, minority character will never sell as much as an established character/name. I mean, what was the last original minority character the Big 2 introduced that was successful? I'm sure Batwing would be selling less if he had zero connection to Batman. Same with your "Spiderwing" idea.

Now, I'm not saying they should do this with every character they have but I don't have any issue when they do because I understand the reasoning behind it.

It's like people who complained about Nightwing becoming Batman. Some claimed he could be made into a great hero without taking up the mantle, which is true, from a story-telling standpoint. But DC is a business first. Batman, as a brand, is the money-maker. For that reason alone, Nightwing will NEVER be shown as capable as he should be nor will he ever be allowed to surpass his mentor.

 

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Originally Posted by 80sBaby View Post
But you do understand the rationale behind that though, right? A new, minority character will never sell as much as an established character/name. I mean, what was the last original minority character the Big 2 introduced that was successful? I'm sure Batwing would be selling less if he had zero connection to Batman. Same with your "Spiderwing" idea.

Now, I'm not saying they should do this with every character they have but I don't have any issue when they do because I understand the reasoning behind it.

It's like people who complained about Nightwing becoming Batman. Some claimed he could be made into a great hero without taking up the mantle, which is true, from a story-telling standpoint. But DC is a business first. Batman, as a brand, is the money-maker. For that reason alone, Nightwing will NEVER be shown as capable as he should be nor will he ever be allowed to surpass his mentor.
That's called bad business... i would explain... but i'm hungry >.> and can't put those words together at the moment.

 

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Originally Posted by 80sBaby View Post
But you do understand the rationale behind that though, right? A new, minority character will never sell as much as an established character/name. I mean, what was the last original minority character the Big 2 introduced that was successful? I'm sure Batwing would be selling less if he had zero connection to Batman. Same with your "Spiderwing" idea.

Now, I'm not saying they should do this with every character they have but I don't have any issue when they do because I understand the reasoning behind it.

It's like people who complained about Nightwing becoming Batman. Some claimed he could be made into a great hero without taking up the mantle, which is true, from a story-telling standpoint. But DC is a business first. Batman, as a brand, is the money-maker. For that reason alone, Nightwing will NEVER be shown as capable as he should be nor will he ever be allowed to surpass his mentor.
It may well be the case. I'm not denying it. Don't care though, either. :/

I don't blame the businesses on the new characters not selling, I blame those who complain and then don't purchase the new titles when they get what they've been asking for.

Let's look at it. You get some high up in the public eye figures looking at the comic industry, or even some idiot with a blog that may or may not be popular. They go about seeing a lack of something in an industry that they're likely not even actively participating in.

Hearing "OMG! There's not enough of this racial/sexual preference in the comic industry" is usually spouted off by people who wouldn't buy the comic book even if it was the best comic ever in both writing and art, and universally agreed upon by the general comic book enjoying fan base.

This may sound bad, but then I also think for the comic book industry to improve and find new icons, they need to make new characters and take real risks on them.

For example, don't keep cancelling Spider-Girl, X-23, ect.

Quit rebooting as some quick fix as well. And seeing as how both companies are owned by some big name companies, how about some advertising for the comics with backing it up with new cartoons, and possibly showig the cartoons as being grown up and for adults.

Added in Edit: Should be noted, there's a difference between adding in a new minority character with links to an established one, and what they did with Spider-Man and just used his name as name recognition.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
It may well be the case. I'm not denying it. Don't care though, either. :/

I don't blame the businesses on the new characters not selling, I blame those who complain and then don't purchase the new titles when they get what they've been asking for.

Let's look at it. You get some high up in the public eye figures looking at the comic industry, or even some idiot with a blog that may or may not be popular. They go about seeing a lack of something in an industry that they're likely not even actively participating in.

Hearing "OMG! There's not enough of this racial/sexual preference in the comic industry" is usually spouted off by people who wouldn't buy the comic book even if it was the best comic ever in both writing and art, and universally agreed upon by the general comic book enjoying fan base.
Agreed. If nobody's buying then why would a company keep making the product?

As much as people on these MB's complain about "Event" books, bottom line is, they sell.

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This may sound bad, but then I also think for the comic book industry to improve and find new icons, they need to make new characters and take real risks on them.
Agreed and keeping Bruce/Cap dead and allowing the next generation to truly "step-up" would have been a step in that direction.

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For example, don't keep cancelling Spider-Girl, X-23, ect.
Well, that would depend on sales figures. I don't think they should keep a low selling title going because that wouldn't be very good for business.

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Quit rebooting as some quick fix as well. And seeing as how both companies are owned by some big name companies, how about some advertising for the comics with backing it up with new cartoons, and possibly showig the cartoons as being grown up and for adults.
Well, here's the thing. You say they should market towards adults but many others think the problem is that kids are being left behind. It's a 'damned if you do or don't' situation. Marketing more towards adults means going after a shrinking fanbase with set favorites and who are resistant to change. That's how they got into the mess they're in now.

And they are advertising more, with the re-launch. I love the new 52. I'm now buying 15 books when, prior, I was only getting 2.

 

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
That's called bad business... i would explain... but i'm hungry >.> and can't put those words together at the moment.
I don't see how but I'll wait for your explanation.

 

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Originally Posted by 80sBaby View Post
I don't see how but I'll wait for your explanation.
Basically, what they are doing is bad and I forget the technical terms for it, but its making the brand lose value as well as not adding value.

Assuming DC has a brand value of 100 and Batman generates 60 of that alone from having Books like Batman and detective Comics vol 1... That 60 value is degenerated by books like The Dark Knight, Batman and Robin, Detective Comics vol 2, etc... this devalues the Batman and the DC brands by itself... So a good brand in a bad book can cause damage to itself and DC...

But then we also have New Brands and Bad Brands such as Liefeld, Men of War, Justice League Dark, and OMAC... Introducing new brands would seem good but its not... It depends on how you handle them. for example even though I think OMAC is utter crap the fact is they dealt with it by canceling it. This says they are willing to feign interest in new brands but are unwilling to let them grow. And this does more damage in the long run than having a bad title as part of the brand.

This overall is bad business because it degrades the brand and ends up meaning you are making less money over all.

Good business practices are where you use a Batman brand to prop a new title up to get someone to try it (like what crossovers do) and where you don't cancel brands for several years so they can grow into themselves, find the proper audience, and or find the right creative team.

See in the good case what you are doing is lowering the brand value of one brand to prop up several others which could build their own brand and at the same time build the brand rep overall by showing your willing to give things a try and not just pretend like you are.


Look at Fox... it's well known for launching shows people love, but then canceling it pretty quickly because the audience isn't there immediately, shifting time slots, putting on at bad times, etc until they just decide to cancel it and then they say "we tried" hen we all know they didn't.

 

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IMO, DC has too many titles being published. There are only so many good writers and artists, and with 52 new issues per month (not counting non-main universe stuff), the talent is spread way too thin.

I am looking forward to Earth 2, as I love the JSA (my favorite supergroup). I just hope the writer and artist do a good job, and don't jump ship after 5 issues.

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post

Added in Edit: Should be noted, there's a difference between adding in a new minority character with links to an established one, and what they did with Spider-Man and just used his name as name recognition.
I have quite a few friends that just are not into comics in the least. When I told them about this, my best friend, Rick, just shook his head and called them racists. Basically this new minority character isn't good enough to stand on his own merits.

Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?

Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post

This may sound bad, but then I also think for the comic book industry to improve and find new icons, they need to make new characters and take real risks on them.

If either of the big two created a new minority character and put Geoff Johns or Mark Millar on writing and Jim Lee on art, I guarantee it will sell out every issue for at least the first year. That's the kind of commitment they need to bring to their new characters, not just throwing it at some new guy to see if there's any interest. A good writer and artist combo can take any character and make the book exciting and worth reading.

 

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Originally Posted by Antigonus View Post
If either of the big two created a new minority character and put Geoff Johns or Mark Millar on writing and Jim Lee on art, I guarantee it will sell out every issue for at least the first year. That's the kind of commitment they need to bring to their new characters, not just throwing it at some new guy to see if there's any interest. A good writer and artist combo can take any character and make the book exciting and worth reading.
Agreed.

I also don't think there's a lack of talent in the industry to pull this off. I think there's a lack of committed people in the industry.

They need to get back to the practice of hiring people who do their work with quality and care, and look at it as a job they need to stay with, and not a job they can just abandon at a whim when they're bored and want to try something new.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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