Classical 'Brute or Scrapper'? StJ/WP
By
Comicsluvr,
Posted on: 2012-01-09 05:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
A 50% Fury bar is a doubling of damage on every attack, which is statistically better than criticals that happen less than 100% of the time. 50% Fury doesn't take long to reach and it stays at 50% or higher for quite a while, especially if you don't have a lot of downtime between mobs. The Incarnate trials are perhaps the best example of an environment where Fury really shines.
Taunt is also incredibly valuable in the iTrials, even if as a Brute you don't intend to tank as a full time job. Just being able to contribute to mob management (not the same as aggro management) is amazingly useful. I had taken Taunt out of my Brute build at one point but then put it back once I started her Incarnate career. The ability to draw Warworks away from Keyes reactor terminals, or to draw Void Storms to Penelope in the MoM trial, or to draw IDF away from broadcaster terminals in TPN is so valuable that it makes Brutes twice as useful in iTrials as Scrappers IMO. In all other content, it is probably a wash, though the higher HP and higher softcaps still make the Brute edge out the Scrapper for me.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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This is only true if you have no damage buffs, damage set bonuses, or damage enhancements. Personally, I often have one or more of those things. In any realistic analysis (past very low levels where the scrapper can't slot their attacks very well), scrapper and brute damage is very close, usually with a slight edge to the scrapper.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
A 50% Fury bar is a doubling of damage on every attack, which is statistically better than criticals that happen less than 100% of the time.
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The real answer is SJ/NIN/Weapon Stalker. You are the night!
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Gee Talen, looks like you didn't get the memo. Scrappers are the new blasters, in terms of their total badness.
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This is what i want to know too, taunt aura and taunt aside whose going come out better out of the 3
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
The real answer is SJ/NIN/Weapon Stalker. You are the night!
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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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I probably didn't get the memo because I round-file everything stamped with 'From the mind of an idiot.' These people, I swear...
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Gee Talen, looks like you didn't get the memo. Scrappers are the new blasters, in terms of their total badness.
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Could you elaborate?
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
This is only true if you have no damage buffs, damage set bonuses, or damage enhancements.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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50% fury is +100% damage. You compared this to a 100% crit chance, since both would give double damage. But in any real build, +100% damage from Fury isn't double damage. It's more like half-again damage, because you're already at ~195% from enhancements, or possibly more for many common builds/situations. Plus, since Brute base damage is lower than Scrapper base damage, the bonus from Fury only helps them catch up, it does NOT catapult them ahead.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Could you elaborate?
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Maybe some numbers will help illustrate. I'll use Rib Cracker as an example, since the thread started out talking about Street Justice.
On a Brute, it does 55.05 damage. With 3 damage SOs, that's 107.3 damage. With 3 damage SOs and 50 fury, that's 162.4 damage.
On a Scrapper, it hits for 82.58. With 3 damage SOs, that's 161 damage. Averaging in the crit damage gives us 177.1.
Did you notice that 50 fury doesn't make the brute hit dramatically harder than the scrapper? In fact, at 50 fury the brute is still behind. This is true for many comparisons between scrappers and brutes - the first ~60 fury isn't an advantage, it only lets them catch up to the damage Scrappers do with no windup time. Since fury doesn't go all that far above 60, they don't end up with much of an advantage even in extreme situations - and with damage buffs or red insps, the scrapper pulls clearly back into the lead.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Hm, toaster vs toaster. Hmm, hmm hmmm.
Flip a damn coin. |
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Thanks! That was helpful.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
On a Brute, it does 55.05 damage. With 3 damage SOs, that's 107.3 damage. With 3 damage SOs and 50 fury, that's 162.4 damage.
On a Scrapper, it hits for 82.58. With 3 damage SOs, that's 161 damage. Averaging in the crit damage gives us 177.1. |
It definitely confirms my notion of Brutes as "better defenses than Scrappers, better damage than Tankers", a sort of in-between AT. Based on your example above, I'm actually even more impressed (than I was before) that a Brute can come as close to Scrapper damage as it does. I'll gladly trade the small damage advantage Scrappers have for the small defense and taunt advantage(s) of the Brute. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same way though.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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50 fury is quite low. Just for the record. |
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Thanks! That was helpful.
It definitely confirms my notion of Brutes as "better defenses than Scrappers, better damage than Tankers", a sort of in-between AT. Based on your example above, I'm actually even more impressed (than I was before) that a Brute can come as close to Scrapper damage as it does. I'll gladly trade the small damage advantage Scrappers have for the small defense and taunt advantage(s) of the Brute. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same way though. |
In my experience, 70 is easily sustainable. In more extreme situations, you'll be peaking above 80 pretty regularly.
At 70 percent, brutes are easily on par with scrapper damage, and still moar tuff.
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Not....really. Did you examine the two builds posted in this thread? Unless I messed those up somehow, they're dead even. Except the brute is waaaay tougher.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
My understanding was that since the nerf to Fury -- now you have a hard time getting it above 75% and maintaining it -- scrappers actually come out slightly ahead in the DPS comparison.
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| Then when you factor in the higher base damage scale for scrappers they pull head for self-buffing dmg sets like /Shield and Claws (follow-up) or DB (the follow-up power). |
Again, this is my experience in play, and is backed up by my Mid's tinkering. If I've got Mid's borked somehow, I'm happy to be shown the error of my ways.
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This depends a lot on power sets. In the absence of damage buffs, yes, the scrapper advantage is minimal to nonexistent. But scrappers benefit significantly more from damage buffs - both because of their higher base damage, and because they get a larger percentage from the same powers than Brutes do.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Not...really. The only advantage scrappers have damage-wise is pseudopet damage.
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As an example I'll use Sweeping Strike from Dual Blades. We'll give the brute 80 fury (+160% damage) this time.
Brute Sweeping Strike hits for 70.9 damage base, so you're looking at 70.9*(1+.95+1.6) = 252 damage.
Scrapper Sweeping Strike hits for 106.4 damage base, with a 15% crit chance, so you're looking at 106.4*1.15*(1+.95) = 238.6 average damage. The scrapper is a little behind.
But if I add double Blinding Feint:
Brute double Blinding Feint gives +60%. It hits for 70.9*(1+.95+1.6+.6) = 294 damage.
Scrapper double Blinding Feint gives +75%. It hits for 106.4*1.15*(1+.95+.75) = 330 average damage.
The addition of a moderate damage buff brought the scrapper from slightly behind, to well ahead. So yeah, scrappers definitely do benefit substantially more from damage buffs such as Blinding Feint, Follow Up, Against All Odds, Power Siphon, Musculature alpha, Assault, Build Up, red inspirations, or team buffs. A scrapper at the damage cap does more damage per hit than a brute at the cap, and requires less buff to get there.
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Correct.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
This depends a lot on power sets. In the absence of damage buffs, yes, the scrapper advantage is minimal to nonexistent.
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Brute Sweeping Strike hits for 70.9 damage base, so you're looking at 70.9*(1+.95+1.6) = 252 damage. Scrapper Sweeping Strike hits for 106.4 damage base, with a 15% crit chance, so you're looking at 106.4*1.15*(1+.95) = 238.6 average damage. The scrapper is a little behind. |
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But if I add double Blinding Feint: Brute double Blinding Feint gives +60%. It hits for 70.9*(1+.95+1.6+.6) = 294 damage. Scrapper double Blinding Feint gives +75%. It hits for 106.4*1.15*(1+.95+.75) = 330 average damage. The addition of a moderate damage buff brought the scrapper from slightly behind, to well ahead. So yeah, scrappers definitely do benefit substantially more from damage buffs such as Blinding Feint, Follow Up, Against All Odds, Power Siphon, Musculature alpha, Assault, Build Up, red inspirations, or team buffs. |
In my experience, once the buffs start flying, it is rare for a moderate case to be found. Maybe in small teams doing low level content, would this be a common occurrence.Quote:
| A scrapper at the damage cap does more damage per hit than a brute at the cap, and requires less buff to get there. |
Er.... At the cap?
No, and that's precisely the point: At the cap, the scrapper SHOULD be doing rather a lot more damage than the brute. But it isn't so.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Scale
From there, note:
Brute AT scale: .75
Scrapper AT scale: 1.125
Brute cap: 775%
Scrapper cap:500%
Assume an attack with 100 base damage.
Brute: 100 x .75 = 75 damage x 7.75 at cap = 581.25
Scrapper: 100 x 1.125 = 112.5 damage x5 at cap = 562.5 x1.06 crits = 596.25
That's a 2.5 percent deficit for the brute, which I humbly submit, is not so much as 12 percent. (NOTE: The upcoming ATO scrapper proc MIGHT change this picture slightly or a lot: Time Will Tell.)
However, if we're assuming a buff-rich environment, the Brutes higher hitpoints and MUCH higher resistance cap is giving the Brute something on the order of a 100-200 percent boost in survivability.
The scrapper is paying dearly for that 2.5 percent damage output lead.
I've been saying for months that scrappers, blasters, and stalkers should have their damage caps raised to 600 percent, precisely to make them more attractive in buff-rich environments like this. (NOTE: Another way for the Dev's to address this for scrappers would be to make the Scrapper ATO proc dramatically improve their crits, and while less attractive than raising the caps, this is also a way forward.)
The brute needs twice as many damage buffs as the scrapper to cap their damage. Conversely, any single damage buff on a scrapper is twice as good as it is for a brute. Musculature, red inspirations, assault, build up, anything.
Where's the one place that your damage is always capped? AE farms. Almost any other situation will see you fall short of the damage cap, and there the scrapper's advantage is quite pronounced. So yes, you could lobby for buffs for ATs that by no means need it, or you could recognize that the brute's damage cap advantage is illusory 98% of the time. Particularly when compared to their very real damage buff deficit.
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There is precisely one team buff which plausibly allows a brute to reach the damage cap: Fulcrum Shift. Yes, Kinetics is possibly the most popular support set around, so it's not rare to team with someone who can FS you, but it's hardly something to rely on, either. But more importantly, non-Super Strength brutes don't even reach the cap with a fully-saturated Fulcrum Shift from a defender. Even with 80 fury, which as you said was generous, they'd be at 95% from enhancements, 160% from fury, and 300% from FS, for a total of 555% damage buff, more than 100% short of the cap. A Corruptor or Controller using Fulcrum Shift would leave you even further away. And even when you have Fulcrum Shift on the team, you can't realistically assume you'll have ten stacks at all times.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Exactly! However, note your use of the word 'moderate'.
In my experience, once the buffs start flying, it is rare for a moderate case to be found. Maybe in small teams doing low level content, would this be a common occurrence. |
But 200% +damage is plenty to cap or very nearly cap many scrapper builds. If I add another +200% damage buff to the previous Sweeping Strike example:
The Brute hits for 70.9*(1+.95+1.6+.6+2) = 436 damage.
The Scrapper hits for 106.4*1.15*(1+.95+.75+2) = 575 damage. This is WAY ahead of the brute.
So as I said, scrappers win in the presence of damage buffs. For almost any realistic buff situation, they win by quite a margin. Only if you have the double fulcrum shift needed to reach the brute cap does the brute almost catch up, and then only while you're near the buffers and fighting enough enemies to feed FS.
A brute could use red insps instead of/in addition to FS to reach the cap, but a scrapper can do the same, and do so with fewer insps at a time, meaning their tray will last longer.
I'm not much of a number-cruncher, but I'd like to chip in my 2 inf anyway.
I've got a StJ/WP brute that I absolutely love. Brutes are a bit tougher in general, and Rise to the Challenge benefits from the brute's taunting. As for StJ, even on a scrapper I'd probably rush from mob to mob anyway to use finishing moves to their fullest advantage, which means that, on a brute, keeping fury up isn't really a problem.
All in all, my StJ/WP brute is a blast to play. My vote is for a brute.
In the end, I rolled a scrapper (the brute will be Dark/Dark). Now you can keep discussing mechanics, which I find quite valuable to help me understand the game a bit more
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Thought Bill Z's last thread pretty much showed this definitively. I know my Claws/SR brute running the same FU-Focus-Slash chain and proc'd build as a scrapper is getting notably less dps vs. pylons, maybe at least 10dps lower.