Classical 'Brute or Scrapper'? StJ/WP
By
Comicsluvr,
Posted on: 2012-01-09 05:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Depending on the character's background, I prefer Brutes to Scrappers simply for the Fury mechanic. If I'm on a Scrapper I sometimes get lazy solo and wander around the missions sight-seeing. If I'm on a Brute the decreasing Fury drives me to the next mob faster. I sometimes RP and I'm always thinking in terms of theme. Captain America with his stoic ways and steady manner would be a Scrapper. The Hulk, the rampaging engine of destruction, would be a brute.
Your mileage may vary.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
The only advantage WP brutes get over WP scrappers is hit points. Well, okay, if you fully slot HPT, MOB, SOW and tough for resistance then when SOW is up you're looking at 82% s/l resistance which the brute can have and the scrapper cannot. This is available two fifths of the time, when it is available it's not that big a deal, and using SOW isn't always desirable in the first place since it does have a crash. Point being, the survival bonuses for brutes are pretty marginal barring the most extreme and specific conditions.
Some people don't like SJ on scrappers because critical finishers gain the base damage rather than the combo damage. A trifle, I say. For one thing, you're still getting critical hits and the finishers do high base damage in the first place. For another, consider that the scrapper can hit build up and immediately drop a spinning strike or crushing uppercut on a spawn or boss at full effectiveness. I have a SJ scrapper as well as a SJ brute and that's something I sorely miss on the brute.
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These were my thoughts exactly |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The only advantage WP brutes get over WP scrappers is hit points. Well, okay, if you fully slot HPT, MOB, SOW and tough for resistance then when SOW is up you're looking at 82% s/l resistance which the brute can have and the scrapper cannot. This is available two fifths of the time, when it is available it's not that big a deal, and using SOW isn't always desirable in the first place since it does have a crash. Point being, the survival bonuses for brutes are pretty marginal barring the most extreme and specific conditions.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
For another, consider that the scrapper can hit build up and immediately drop a spinning strike or crushing uppercut on a spawn or boss at full effectiveness.
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Thanks for your feedback!
The brute can do it too, but unless the previous spawn was right there it feels like I forgot to take off my foam #1 mittens after the big game. Going through an elevator is usually enough to take some of the wind out of my sails even with build up, so fickle a mistress is fury. Three metaphors in two sentences is approximately sufficient to convey the extent to which I prefer scrappers' flat, high damage to brutes' constant flux. But don't get me wrong, the brute is fun too. I just think this combination would be better off on a scrapper.
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Ah now I get what you mean |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The brute can do it too, but unless the previous spawn was right there it feels like I forgot to take off my foam #1 mittens after the big game. Going through an elevator is usually enough to take some of the wind out of my sails even with build up, so fickle a mistress is fury. Three metaphors in two sentences is approximately sufficient to convey the extent to which I prefer scrappers' flat, high damage to brutes' constant flux. But don't get me wrong, the brute is fun too. I just think this combination would be better off on a scrapper.
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Thanks!
In general when it comes to Brutes vs. Scrappers I have always layed it out like this.
Scrapper Pros
* Does better damage out of the gate
* Crits let them do extra damage spikes
* Aren't punished for stopping to rest now and then
* They have Spines
Brute Pros
* Better HP and Resistance Caps
* Better damage once Fury is high enough
* Damage Auras take advantage of Fury
* They have Super Strenght
In the end which one you want depends on your style and concept. BOTH will work very well regardless.
wp is much better on a brute. The hit point difference and regen difference is substantial.
StJ seems to have been designed to be close to AT agnostic. DoT heavy sets are better on a brutes (much), while pet-heavy sets are better on scraps (some). StJ seems to be close to flat: It performs about the same regardless of AT or recharge.
Go brute: wp is better on a brute, StJ is about the same.
Mechanically speaking, for my money, the strongest scrapper build is an elec/shield/body. The strongest brute build is a fire/wp/soul.
Assuming HPT fully slotted for healing, the brute's HP advantage is 210 at level 50. That's a scant advantage indeed. It also results in a 12% advantage in regeneration. Accolades and set bonuses are also about 12% better for the brute. To that I say, "Big deal." Neither gets anywhere near their AT's HP cap.
My TW/WP scrapper is actually going to have better HP than a brute who doesn't specifically focus on it just because I'm pursuing a defense set slotting strategy that nabs a few HP bonuses as well. The brute can do the same thing but nothing will change the fact that their edge is, at best, about 12%.
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However, one can also look at Brutes Fury mechanic as a superhero holding back at first.|
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
Depending on the character's background, I prefer Brutes to Scrappers simply for the Fury mechanic. If I'm on a Scrapper I sometimes get lazy solo and wander around the missions sight-seeing. If I'm on a Brute the decreasing Fury drives me to the next mob faster. I sometimes RP and I'm always thinking in terms of theme. Captain America with his stoic ways and steady manner would be a Scrapper. The Hulk, the rampaging engine of destruction, would be a brute.
Your mileage may vary. |
That's how I interpret it for my character.
In most post-50 play, I find my StJ/WP Brute's Fury bar at 50% or above nearly 90% of a mission's/trial's duration. That means I am doing at least double base damage 90% of the time. AFAIK, no scrapper can get their crit % that high.
Scrapper used to be my favorite AT, but now it is Brute. The tanker-like softcaps, the superior taunt, and the Fury mechanic make Brutes a better choice over Scrappers for my style of play.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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12 percents, you say?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Assuming HPT fully slotted for healing, the brute's HP advantage is 210 at level 50. That's a scant advantage indeed. It also results in a 12% advantage in regeneration. Accolades and set bonuses are also about 12% better for the brute. To that I say, "Big deal." Neither gets anywhere near their AT's HP cap.
My TW/WP scrapper is actually going to have better HP than a brute who doesn't specifically focus on it just because I'm pursuing a defense set slotting strategy that nabs a few HP bonuses as well. The brute can do the same thing but nothing will change the fact that their edge is, at best, about 12%. |
Ok, lemme see if I can't illustrate.
I made two builds. One is a kat/wp scrap I've been meaning to run up for a long while now. The other is as exact a copy of that build as I can manage, except as a brute.
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Ok, assuming I can paste right, there they are.
Now, the scrap build has 2379 hp's and regens 71.04 hp's a sec.
The brute has 2663 hp's and regens 79.54 hp's a sec.
The brute is better. It has more hitpoints, and regenerates faster.
Let's suppose they are subjected to equal damage streams of 80 hitpoints per second after all mitigation. (See where this is going?)
The brute can sustain this forever. The scrapper will die.
At base, the brute has 284 more hitpoints, and regenerates an extra 510 hitpoints per minute of combat. To put it another way, after a two minute combat the brute is 1304 hit points ahead of the scrapper. Three minutes is 1814, four minutes is 2314 at which point the scrapper very likely faceplants and the brute is literally unscathed.
It gets much worse.
Assume the scrapper, sensibly, hits Strength of Will. The brute does the same. And then the brute grins evilly, and pops an orange on top of it.
Yeah, that's the end of that comparison.
However!
The Scrapper does more damage!
Well.....no.
Looking at those two builds (and assuming I have crit's turned on, which I certainly think I do) I make an assumption of 70 percent fury for the brute. I find this to be a solid and fairly conservative estimate for high-level play easily accomplished by builds of this nature. (I could justify 80 percent, but it's ugly.)
Under those conditions, the brute is doing MORE damage than the scrapper.
Now, kat/wp is by no means a combo slanted towards a brute strengths or away from a scrappers strengths. But the brute on identical builds is tougher, can easily be MUCH tougher, and does equivalent damage at least.
Oh, I didn't put up StJ builds because i already had the one kat/wp build and I'm lazy.
Sorry.
Okay look mauk, I understand that coming up with a couple builds and crunching various numbers takes effort and I'm not trying to wave away your argument, but you basically showed that the brute is approximately 12% better at survival and constructed a circumstance where that 12% betterness is the difference between life and defeat. I'm not denying that it is possible for that to happen, what I am denying is that that's a common situation in actual play. You sort of give the game away when you say "and then the brute takes an orange" because what is keeping the scrapper from taking a purple or a green at some point here? If you're taking sustained 80 dps through all of your defenses and resists, you must be killing the hell out of a lot of things. Brutes aren't the only ones who get to use inspirations.
In any case, my point is not that WP is a bad set for brutes. I'm saying that WP is one of the brute sets that has the smallest advantages over the scrapper equivalent. Any set that can cap one or more resistances or has access to dull pain has a much larger advantage over the scrapper version than WP does.
If you think a few set bonuses worth of HP is a really huge deal and the brute primary's damage is enough for you, by all means make a WP brute. I prefer WP on scrappers since the HP difference is, all together now, about 12%.
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That sounds more like a Brute con posed as a Scrapper pro
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
Scrapper Pros
* Aren't punished for stopping to rest now and then |
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Pretty much, as far as I know.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Okay look mauk, I understand that coming up with a couple builds and crunching various numbers takes effort and I'm not trying to wave away your argument, but you basically showed that the brute is approximately 12% better at survival and constructed a circumstance where that 12% betterness is the difference between life and defeat. I'm not denying that it is possible for that to happen, what I am denying is that that's a common situation in actual play. You sort of give the game away when you say "and then the brute takes an orange" because what is keeping the scrapper from taking a purple or a green at some point here? If you're taking sustained 80 dps through all of your defenses and resists, you must be killing the hell out of a lot of things. Brutes aren't the only ones who get to use inspirations.
In any case, my point is not that WP is a bad set for brutes. I'm saying that WP is one of the brute sets that has the smallest advantages over the scrapper equivalent. Any set that can cap one or more resistances or has access to dull pain has a much larger advantage over the scrapper version than WP does. If you think a few set bonuses worth of HP is a really huge deal and the brute primary's damage is enough for you, by all means make a WP brute. I prefer WP on scrappers since the HP difference is, all together now, about 12%. |
Brutes CAN out damage Scrappers, but the depend on the Fury Mechanic to do it. Scrappers have better damage out of the gate and don't need to rush to keep going.
Franky as far as I'm conserned Scrappers = Brutes in play. You may have preferances to one or the other, but they're roughly equal.
For the sets in question, StJ/WP, I don't think either gets dramatically better performance on a brute or scrapper. I would instead choose based on whether you like chasing fury and/or whether you want to be able to tank. The brute will hold aggro much better due to the taunt in their attacks (and the actual Taunt power in their primary, if you take it), while a scrapper would only have the weak taunt aura to rely on.
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Absolutely nothing.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Okay look mauk, I understand that coming up with a couple builds and crunching various numbers takes effort and I'm not trying to wave away your argument, but you basically showed that the brute is approximately 12% better at survival and constructed a circumstance where that 12% betterness is the difference between life and defeat. I'm not denying that it is possible for that to happen, what I am denying is that that's a common situation in actual play. You sort of give the game away when you say "and then the brute takes an orange" because what is keeping the scrapper from taking a purple or a green at some point here?
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However.
Any purples have identical effect between those two builds. Any greens favor the brute, by the mentioned 12 percent. Yellows, pinks, etc, all have identical effect on both builds.
Oranges, however, can raise the brutes S/L resist to 90 percent. It's not a difficult target to reach. And at 90 percent S/L resist, the brute is suddenly NOT 12 percent more durable (which is a huge difference in and of itself).
When SoW is popped, the scrapper can resist 75 percent, with oranges, the brute can resist 90 percent. (Or with a barrier, or an outside buff, etc.)
That gives the brute a crushing 250 percent advantage in damage mitigated. For every 1000 points of S/L that lands, the scrapper takes 250, the brute 100.
And the brute ALWAYS has more base hitpoints and more base regen, and so is much more likely to begin any conflict with full hits.
It's a huge difference. 12 percent is a LOT, over time.
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| If you're taking sustained 80 dps through all of your defenses and resists, you must be killing the hell out of a lot of things. |
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| I'm saying that WP is one of the brute sets that has the smallest advantages over the scrapper equivalent. Any set that can cap one or more resistances or has access to dull pain has a much larger advantage over the scrapper version than WP does. |
It's HUEG! It's got it's own weather!
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Only if your enemies deal exactly 80 damage per second, every second, all the time. Realistically, especially when you're partly relying on random mitigation like defense, your health bar will take a random walk, even if your regen exactly matches the average incoming DPS. There's no reason your health can't then random walk to zero, at which point you die.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Let's suppose they are subjected to equal damage streams of 80 hitpoints per second after all mitigation. (See where this is going?)
The brute can sustain this forever. The scrapper will die. |
Plus, this whole "the brute lives forever and the scrapper dies" comparison is only relevant in the range between ~71-80 incoming DPS. How many situations in the game fall outside that range? Most of them, in my experience. How many fall inside that range, but end before the scrapper runs out of health? Nearly all of the ones that are left.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
It's a huge difference. 12 percent is a LOT, over time.
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I do agree that the brute's greater ability to benefit from orange insps/res buffs is sometimes a significant advantage, though. But then, so is the scrapper's greater ability to benefit from red insps/damage buffs.
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Huge, in my opinion, would be an overstatement.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
It's HUEG! It's got it's own weather!
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That being said the Brute would be more survivable. Which will do more damage is questionable as the Scrapper has a higher base to start with and can Crit. I'm not saying the Brute can't outdamage it, it's just a case of do you really want to chase Fury?
In the end it's a matter or preferance. A Scrapper or a Brute can work very well, which you want is only a matter of taste.
Thanks for everything, you gave me a lot of insight with this "discussion" and I think I learned a lot of thing
Im still undecided, but I will probably roll a scrapper, since Im also rolling a dark/dark which will be a brute (and anyway I still need to wait for my paragon points to buy StJ)
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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
In general when it comes to Brutes vs. Scrappers I have always layed it out like this.
Scrapper Pros * Does better damage out of the gate * Crits let them do extra damage spikes * Aren't punished for stopping to rest now and then * They have Spines Brute Pros * Better HP and Resistance Caps * Better damage once Fury is high enough * Damage Auras take advantage of Fury * They have Super Strenght In the end which one you want depends on your style and concept. BOTH will work very well regardless. |
And Brutes get inherent Taunt (single target) added to each attack and Taunt in their base powerset, which is why I take them 90% of the time over Scrappers.
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True, but for the most part it won't matter uless you want to tank on a team. Or your on a team and really want to be attacked for the extra fury.
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Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
And Brutes get inherent Taunt (single target) added to each attack and Taunt in their base powerset, which is why I take them 90% of the time over Scrappers.
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I have a level 50 StJ/WP brute and I love(d) it!
It was my favorite brute until I rolled my TW/Elec.
Generally speaking, I prefer brutes over scrappers. Better HP/res numbers. And I don't like relying on criticals for extra damage.
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My decision here increasingly comes down to 2 factors:|
Originally Posted by Erhnam
What would you choose and why? Mostly for soloing, and some TF/iTrials
I have the feeling that the scrapper would be faster, but im not sure if the hit points difference between both ATs will make WP a lot better for brutes |
1) Do I want crits and higher base dps? If using powers like follow-up or AAO (shield+dmg aura), where higher base dps counts, this leans scrapper. If I am using a lot of AOE powers where critting on like 10 mobs would make me wet my pants (or even using APP powers like fireball), this makes me lean scrapper.
2) Do I need/want a taunt aura to keep lots of enemies around me? If I can't get said taunt aura in a scrapper set (like /Shield or /INV or maybe I think /WP), then I lean brute.
I have a claws/sr brute that underperforms dps on a scrapper and really doesn't get much out of being a brute, except maybe taunt aura in evasion.
I have a wm/sd scrapper that gets a taunt aura in AAO and also gets incredible crits on AOE in Whirling Mace, Crowd Control, and Shatter -- worth it.
I made my TW/SR a brute so he would get the taunt aura in Evasion, which with all the AOE that TW has, made me lean more towards a brute (keeping mobs around me for TW's AOEs) than a scrapper (critting with all TW's AOEs).
My Fire/INV brute really should have been a scrapper, as he doesn't get nearly as much out of being a brute (some slight fury buff to Fire's DOTs).
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Re: Taunt (the mechanic)|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
True, but for the most part it won't matter uless you want to tank on a team. Or your on a team and really want to be attacked for the extra fury.
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Scrappers have a nasty habit of scaring off enemies, making them flee the vicinity. With Brutes, enemies will stick around because you called them names. When it comes to smashing things to bits, it's much easier to do when they're running towards you rather than away.
What would you choose and why? Mostly for soloing, and some TF/iTrials
I have the feeling that the scrapper would be faster, but im not sure if the hit points difference between both ATs will make WP a lot better for brutes