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Wait it doesn't make sense that the melee AT has less range than the Ranged/melee Hybrid AT?|
Originally Posted by Kazz
Honestly, I just want them to take a look at:
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FUHWHAT?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Just chiming in here as the OP. Really enjoying the discussion and the points being brought up. I am still considering EM, but it has slid a notch. I am leaning towards Invul, and I see EM paired with WP. After all, with ET you try to blow your own head off, and that just works better with WP, which rebounds from stupid real well.
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No additional buffs for the power in question, or the set in general?
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Originally Posted by JayboH
When I was talking about Whirling, I was thinking of damage/recharge - which is roughly the same as other sets - I admittedly did not consider range, which I agree with could be turned up.
...but that's it. I don't see anything outside of range needing a buff. |
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Maybe add something like attacks cause -7.5% resistance debuff energy.
Totall Focus could use the Energy Transfer animation you charge up your fist and BAM! not the silly jumping monkey animation.
Energy Transfer is fine just need a faster animation 2.9 is too long for a tier 9 skill that even does self damage below 2 secs would be fine.
Just mine thoughts
Dizzy
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Oh my, how things have changed. I still remember the old day when EM was so popular. AoE damage wasn't as important because we couldn't change game setting from 1 player to 8 players without actually having 8 people on the team. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Castle nerfed EM because its single target damage due to ET was way out of line and because of PVP. He also got mad because of players telling other players they were idiots for not taking EM.
I believe the thread that finally pushed him over the line was the one titled "If you don't pick Energy Melee then you are a doughnut head." If you want Energy Melee's niche to be the highest single target damage, that isn't going to happen. In a balanced world, fire would hold that position because its secondary is more damage. |
Do you think EM is still seen as overpowered with the old ET?
One problem I have with Energy Melee is its secondary effect. Yes, the stuns are useful but it's mostly on single target and it doesn't help that Energy Melee has two attacks that activate slow and lacks aoe powers to take advantage of "stuns".
I mean you really only need mag 3 to stun most minions/lts and mag 4 for most bosses. The stun effects are too redundant IMO and activation time makes stun effects less attractive because if the goal is to stun most foes, it's better to stun them first before taking all the alpha damage first and then stun.
Kinetic Melee, on the other hand, has a great mix of stun/-damage debuff. It has enough stuns to stun most minion/lts and the damage debuff happens all the time.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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We were talking about Whirling Hands.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
No additional buffs for the power in question, or the set in general?
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Aren't stuns pretty worthless in the high end modern game? Serious question. I would personally trade the stun effect for anything besides KB and be happy. Its a toss up (for me) whether Knock Down or Stun is the better special effect. But I would literally take anything over Stun or Knockdown. I perceive both to be near worthless for what I need from a set.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
One problem I have with Energy Melee is its secondary effect. Yes, the stuns are useful but it's mostly on single target and it doesn't help that Energy Melee has two attacks that activate slow and lacks aoe powers to take advantage of "stuns".
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I think worthless is a bit strong. They're obviously less good than a hold, and the stagger effect is not optimal, but provided magnitude and duration are appropriate, there's no reason stuns can't be desireable. No you'll EDIT: "Rarely do it to an AV", but there are a lot of genuinely dangerous bosses around...|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Aren't stuns pretty worthless in the high end modern game? Serious question. I would personally trade the stun effect for anything besides KB and be happy. Its a toss up (for me) whether Knock Down or Stun is the better special effect. But I would literally take anything over Stun or Knockdown. I perceive both to be near worthless for what I need from a set.
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Too bad you can't TF those into oblivion anymore...
But I'm not bitter...
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Just yesterday, I (accidentally) saved a teammate from Hopkins at the end of a Manticore TF with the stun on Rise of the Phoenix, because his triangles happened to be off at that moment. So more like "rarely" than "never".
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
No you'll never do in an AV,
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I made this similar point in another thread. It turns out the ability to increase mob size was added to the game around the same time the nerf was applied to energy. Double whammy.|
Oh my, how things have changed. I still remember the old day when EM was so popular. AoE damage wasn't as important because we couldn't change game setting from 1 player to 8 players without actually having 8 people on the team. |
I honestly think returning all old settings to Energy would make everyone who has a parked toon happy, and I don't think anyone 'not' playing Energy would be envious. Farm from actually, I mean jeez my 'troller has a nova now (Judgment) for goodness sake. Sounds like an easier fix than most, just undo what you did.
I've been monitoring the forums on Energy melee for a bit now, even mentioned it in game and heard that "they" might be looking into fixing Energy melee. Has anyone heard who said this and where I may read up on it? I guess it's possible it might have been said on a Ustream channel instead of the forums?
Any help pointing me in the right direction would be appreciated.
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If you point me to another identical PBAoE attack power between two different ATs that has a radically different radius, I'll concede the point and say I was wrong. It's not that the brutes have a smaller radius that gets me, it's that it's different at all between two ATs for the same exact power.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Wait it doesn't make sense that the melee AT has less range than the Ranged/melee Hybrid AT?
FUHWHAT? |
I would really rather not beg for a nerf to Dom's Whirling Hands, so instead I'll ask for an increase to the Brute's version.
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It is on the City Wiki under issue 22 changes. That's all I know, and the source for that comment is not cited there. I would really like to use something besides Super Strength once in a while lol.
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Originally Posted by Celestial Might
I've been monitoring the forums on Energy melee for a bit now, even mentioned it in game and heard that "they" might be looking into fixing Energy melee. Has anyone heard who said this and where I may read up on it? I guess it's possible it might have been said on a Ustream channel instead of the forums?
Any help pointing me in the right direction would be appreciated. |
Ah there it is. Thanks Blue 
"Energy Melee is being looked at"....it's not much. But it's a start! :P
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The kicker for me is that the dominator version of whirling hands is also 15'. Ah crap, now they're gonna nerf my dominator.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
Bottom line, there are two other powersets with a single AoE, both have ranges of 15.
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Well, yeah, that too. All Incarnate AVs are pretty much immued to control effects. And on a large team, your ST Stun isn't going to stand out. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Aren't stuns pretty worthless in the high end modern game? Serious question. I would personally trade the stun effect for anything besides KB and be happy. Its a toss up (for me) whether Knock Down or Stun is the better special effect. But I would literally take anything over Stun or Knockdown. I perceive both to be near worthless for what I need from a set.
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That's why I said that Energy Melee's stuns aren't that effective because in normal situation, a total focus/energy transfer can only stun most minion/lts and if you add two more hits, it's likely to stun a boss, but that's about it. It needs more reliable secondary effects and since you only have one pbaoe, it's unlikely to "extend" that secondary effects.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
My only problem with them buffing Whirling Hand (or Dragon Tail) is that Stalker doesn't have neither. T_T (tears)
If Energy Melee is going to be looked at, please think about Stalker's needs too.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I'm not even talking against AVs, although -to hit, -res (please) or any buff type effect is great. Stunning a minion or Lt? Pah-leese. If on a high end team you are not killing minions and Lts with a backhand slap you need to get more fury or look at your build. Stunning level 50 Bosses/ 1st) is it worth it? A level 50 Brute has zeroed in on a level 50 Boss... How many seconds does the boss really have in his future? So he is stunned for the last 3 secs of his existence. Whee! The most damage that Boss is gonna do to the Brute is when the Brute self inflicts damage with ET. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Well, yeah, that too. All Incarnate AVs are pretty much immued to control effects. And on a large team, your ST Stun isn't going to stand out.
That's why I said that Energy Melee's stuns aren't that effective because in normal situation, a total focus/energy transfer can only stun most minion/lts and if you add two more hits, it's likely to stun a boss, but that's about it. It needs more reliable secondary effects and since you only have one pbaoe, it's unlikely to "extend" that secondary effects. |
so, the only class of creature stun might be useful against is Elite Boss. anybody good with book learning out there know how much oomf an Energy Melee Brute has to throw at an EB to get some dizzy time? and how long that lasts?
Yeah, give me -res, or -tohit, or moah dam. If you have to give me Stun for thematic reasons, okay. But do not under any circumstances hand me that crap sandwich and tell me how good it's gonna taste.
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-ToHit is Dark Melee's shtick so I'm pretty certain EM won't get that too.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I'm not even talking against AVs, although -to hit, -res (please) or any buff type effect is great. Stunning a minion or Lt? Pah-leese. If on a high end team you are not killing minions and Lts with a backhand slap you need to get more fury or look at your build. Stunning level 50 Bosses/ 1st) is it worth it? A level 50 Brute has zeroed in on a level 50 Boss... How many seconds does the boss really have in his future? So he is stunned for the last 3 secs of his existence. Whee! The most damage that Boss is gonna do to the Brute is when the Brute self inflicts damage with ET.
so, the only class of creature stun might be useful against is Elite Boss. anybody good with book learning out there know how much oomf an Energy Melee Brute has to throw at an EB to get some dizzy time? and how long that lasts? Yeah, give me -res, or -tohit, or moah dam. If you have to give me Stun for thematic reasons, okay. But do not under any circumstances hand me that crap sandwich and tell me how good it's gonna taste. |
If it was given -Res (big if, imo) it would need to be small coefficients on each attack, possibly comparing it to Sonic Blast and going accordingly. Just be aware there's the risk they might nerf the damage even more to keep the -res from making everything OP.
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Originally Posted by Kazz
-ToHit is Dark Melee's shtick so I'm pretty certain EM won't get that too.
If it was given -Res (big if, imo) it would need to be small coefficients on each attack, possibly comparing it to Sonic Blast and going accordingly. Just be aware there's the risk they might nerf the damage even more to keep the -res from making everything OP. |
Oh yeah. i was not asking for either of those. If I asked could I get it, heh. I was just bringing them up for comparison. Stun is a crap secondary effect unless you run around farming Port Oakes street fights your entire career with exp shut off around 12.
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Actually, I wasn't saying "stun" is useless. What my whole point is Stun on a mostly Single Target Set isn't that effective because those that can be stunned can easily be stunned by ET/TF (one hit or two hits at most) and those that can't be stunned will make the stacking nature of energy melee stun useless.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Oh yeah. i was not asking for either of those. If I asked could I get it, heh. I was just bringing them up for comparison. Stun is a crap secondary effect unless you run around farming Port Oakes street fights your entire career with exp shut off around 12.
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The power Stun in Energy Melee also seems too redundant.
Take Kinetic for example, the pbaoe Burst has -damage + knock down. Even if the knock down doesn't affect the AV/Boss, the -damage debuff will.
I think Energy Melee needs another secondary effect. I am not so sure if Dominator's Whirling Hand is a win-win situation. Dom's Whirling Hand has 20s recharge.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I said for ages that power should be given the "WarMace/Clobber treatment" (now I can add Cobra Strike as another reference to pull from.)
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
The power Stun in Energy Melee also seems too redundant.
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I am saying stun is useless. In the world that I inhabit there are around 10 levels of cool|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Actually, I wasn't saying "stun" is useless.
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1) killing mob in a super cool way
2) killing mob
3) protecting self
4) debuffing mob
5) holding mob
6) immob mob
7) KD a mob
8) Stun a mob
9) turn a mob a cool color when you hit them
10) knock a mob back
Its not a comprehensive list, but it gives you an idea. Stun is pretty near useless. In fact it is right above useless (turning a mob a color) and slightly above annoying (knocking a mob away) What is more, the Stun effect in EM doesnt work against anybody you need it to. Sure you can stun a Lt and maybe a Boss if you work at it. Excuse me, just kill them. You are prob not going to stun an Elite Boss, and very rarely an AV. whereas Dark has an effect that gets applied to every attack that is useful. Fire just does more damage. Just about every set has a better secondary effect than Stun. Then the people who designed Energy Melee gave it the worst AoE in the game (it practically has no AoE) I have run Dark Melee characters (a lot) and they have better AoE than Energy Melee. If necessary you can use two buff attacks as ghetto AoE on Dark. Then, the Energy Melee set damages you. Seriously.
Its like the people who designed it were like "We want to create the worst powerset in the game, we think we're on to something with Energy Melee, but it's just not there yet."
Joe walks by "Make it do damage to the user."
"Perfect, Joe you are a genius."
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I guess this is where we differ. Personally, I giggle whenever I chain-knockdown a mob, so that would be high on my personal list. KD is reliable mitigation, because they can't do anything while flailing around on their tuckus. Yet we agree on knockback, because it makes me want to rip my hair out (and is the main reason I have still yet to get my peacebringer past 21).|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I am saying stun is useless. In the world that I inhabit there are around 10 levels of cool
1) killing mob in a super cool way 2) killing mob 3) protecting self 4) debuffing mob 5) holding mob 6) immob mob 7) KD a mob 8) Stun a mob 9) turn a mob a cool color when you hit them 10) knock a mob back |
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Its not a comprehensive list, but it gives you an idea. Stun is pretty near useless. In fact it is right above useless (turning a mob a color) and slightly above annoying (knocking a mob away) What is more, the Stun effect in EM doesnt work against anybody you need it to. Sure you can stun a Lt and maybe a Boss if you work at it. Excuse me, just kill them. You are prob not going to stun an Elite Boss, and very rarely an AV. whereas Dark has an effect that gets applied to every attack that is useful. Fire just does more damage. Just about every set has a better secondary effect than Stun. Then the people who designed Energy Melee gave it the worst AoE in the game (it practically has no AoE) I have run Dark Melee characters (a lot) and they have better AoE than Energy Melee. If necessary you can use two buff attacks as ghetto AoE on Dark. Then, the Energy Melee set damages you. Seriously. Its like the people who designed it were like "We want to create the worst powerset in the game, we think we're on to something with Energy Melee, but it's just not there yet." Joe walks by "Make it do damage to the user." "Perfect, Joe you are a genius." |
it's a big bucket sure. But it only holds so much. Figure you like this attack, okay, it is a upper level attack. Figure you got some global rech in the build, and some rech in the power itself. fair? figure you are running Inuln., not Will. fair? You are really seriously ruining your own numbers from the inside!!!!!!!!! look at it. It aint pretty. Compare it to ANY other primary. It just "wait, what is that sound, like a giant vacuum....it is the SUCK...RUN!!!!!!"
Totall Focus could use the animation of ET instead of 3.4 secs to 2.9
Whirling Hands could go from 8 feet to 10 and damage that feels right for the skill.
Energy Transfer could use a shorter animation between 1.5 secs and 2 secs maybe some animation that you shoot a burst of energy at the target melee range 10 feet ??