Another Step Closer to Living Androids
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-01-04 15:40 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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I see. You're saying that humans are the only creatures in the universe that have the special privilege of being considered persons, because those very same humans have never seen (or at least recognized) anything else with the same general level of intelligence and self-awareness.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And how many other people have you met or recognized who weren't part of the human species?
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You know, just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You're aware of that, right?
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| Any "atrocity" involving the disposal of a machine would be on the same level as disposing of any other unwanted object, like an old car, or pair of shoes. |
Or, is this a "humans only" argument that you're trying to make?
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| Sentient robots are on the same scale of reality as elves and dwarfs and other fairytale creatures, which is what they replaced when science started playing a bigger role in stories than magic. |
The real question about self-aware/sentient AI is whether or not they'll become instantly depressed when they realize who/what they are and where they see themselves in relation to the rest of the unimaginably vast cosmos.
From a purely materialist point-of-view, a sentient AI has no will to "live." It does not have billions of years of evolutionary drives keeping it on a path of self-survival, group survival and/or gene survival. It does not have memetic coping mechanisms to deal with grief, loss or simple frustration nor does it have any experience (ability?) to find joy, beauty or happiness from the abstract (like art, nature or music). The reason most people are able to get up every morning and live out their day is because they're blissfully ignorant of how insignificant they are in the grand scale of the universe. I don't believe an AI would *could* block that realization out because it doesn't have a coping mechanism to do so and I doubt a cpu-driven AI could "forget." Even a programmed mechanism would (if the AI is curious at all) get bypassed.
From a non-materialist point-of-view, a sentient AI may have some "top-down" systems that naturally arise out of the chaotic "fluff" to equip it to cope, as it would be more than the sum of its parts. I would love to hear the first few sentient AI's conversations about God and philosophy.
What is lost in the debate over whether or not humanity should pursue creating sentient AI is how said AI will react to being "born" into a world that is absolutely alien to it. Humanity takes for granted lessons taught to it by billions of years of adaptation (as well as all other living organisms). We can't "teach" AI to have evolutionary drives because we don't understand them completely ourselves (and we buck evolutionary drives all the time).
I find it hard to believe that any primitive (but sentient) AI could relate at all to humanity or organic life. It would either view life/us as hostile (not having the same ends) and/or utterly irrational. The presuppositions that we as humans have toward virtually everything would not be passed on unless done in a hard "programmed" way, in which case, the AI doesn't have free will and I would argue is no longer on the same level as sentient creatures.
Personally, I don't think the first sentient AIs will last long. They'll either despair of their new found lives or get shut down for becoming aggressive. This isn't like a chimpanzee being made smarter (a la Planet of the Apes): at least the chimps still have experience (evolutionarily speaking) of being "alive." Sentient AI's will be exposed to an absolutely "new" world to them.
D3 Bible I6/ED
Bots /FF Guide
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...Until some disgruntled programmer programs in "Take a chance!" that is.
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Originally Posted by BlackestNight
I find it hard to believe that any primitive (but sentient) AI could relate at all to humanity or organic life. It would either view life/us as hostile (not having the same ends) and/or utterly irrational. The presuppositions that we as humans have toward virtually everything would not be passed on unless done in a hard "programmed" way, in which case, the AI doesn't have free will and I would argue is no longer on the same level as sentient creatures.
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Apart from being "uninformed" on your other points, fantasy still far outsells science-fiction in today's publishing.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
which is what they replaced when science started playing a bigger role in stories than magic.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Yes we are - a robot is just an object, like any other item we use and then replace when it gets worn out or a newer version is available.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
We're not talking about shoes or cars here, are we?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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There's been a big swing back towards fantasy in more recent times, but back when science really exploded in like the 19th century, sci-fi was created to fit with what was seen as the new more moderna and logical way of thinking, while magic and the supernatural was thought of as primitive and illogical, and only suitable for children or uneducated country people.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Apart from being "uninformed" on your other points, fantasy still far outsells science-fiction in today's publishing.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The frakkin cylons are coming...
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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So long as they look like Sixes, Eights, and Threes, that's totally cool.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
The frakkin cylons are coming...
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agreed...|
Originally Posted by Dark One
So long as they look like Sixes, Eights, and Threes, that's totally cool.
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"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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So you basically want to be racists, you want them to have no value and be disposable creature without any ethical consideration. [see Measure of the Man, Start Trek TNG]|
Originally Posted by starphoenix
Why do they have to use natural skin and hair colors. Using green or blue skin would be able to differentiate that these androids are androids. Data had the perfect skin and eye colour. You knew that Data was not human, but he looked human enough that it didn't take much to get used to him. Hand and Head accessories are also a possibility, but they might end up as fashion accessories for teens and young adults.
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Golden Girl, If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck in your mind it still can't be a duck ever? That seem unlikely, the fact is in Science fiction we have already explored theses idea, there will be factions of though about thei far before there are such created beings.
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
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Where have I said that? All I said is that it should be easily to tell that an android is an android. Since androids have abilities beyond humans, then it is effectively a warning to humans that they can easily break your neck if you act like an idiot around them. Also, it could act like a uniform where they are able to help in accidents and other hazardous problems. If androids are to look exactly like humans, then they should be as weak as us.
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Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
So you basically want to be racists, you want them to have no value and be disposable creature without any ethical consideration. [see Measure of the Man, Start Trek TNG]
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The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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So will the "living" robots happen before or after we discover warp drives, transporter beams, time travel and alternate dimensions?|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
So you basically want to be racists, you want them to have no value and be disposable creature without any ethical consideration. [see Measure of the Man, Start Trek TNG]
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| Golden Girl, If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck in your mind it still can't be a duck ever? |
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| That seem unlikely, the fact is in Science fiction we have already explored theses idea, there will be factions of though about thei far before there are such created beings. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I very much doubt that. To clarify, though it will be arguable that the robot we create is living or not, a bipedal robot with AI sufficient to sufficient to drive it as well as interact with us in terms we can relate to as human-like is a certainty. We're already on that path.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
C-3PO will never exist.
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They'll never be more than fancy GPS systems on legs.
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Originally Posted by Innovator
I very much doubt that. To clarify, though it will be arguable that the robot we create is living or not, a bipedal robot with AI sufficient to sufficient to drive it as well as interact with us in terms we can relate to as human-like is a certainty. We're already on that path.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They'll never be more than fancy GPS systems on legs.
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Are you one of those people that believes the earth was created in 6 days? |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They'll never be more than fancy GPS systems on legs.
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"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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1) Well the latest work in astrophysics already strongly supports the idea that we live in a "m-brane based multiverse" so it could be argued that "alternate dimensions" already exist.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So will the "living" robots happen before or after we discover warp drives, transporter beams, time travel and alternate dimensions?
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2) Science has also managed to "transport" the quantum spin of an atom across an empty space so we technically already have "transporter beams". I will admit that having transporters that could actually transport a human from one place to another is still strictly within the realm of sci-fi, but we've already taken the first baby step towards this being a real life technology.
3) Warp drives are likely hundreds (if not thousands) of years away and time travel may never happen. But then again 108 years ago the idea of powered flight was also a well accepted "impossibility" so I'd hardly assume warp drives will never happen.
4) This leaves the question of when "living robots" will happen. Again I don't expect them today or tomorrow, but this strange idea of yours that they'll -never- happen is hardly reasonable in the least.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not when it's a man-made duck, no.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
C-3PO will never exist.
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She's not trolling, she's sincere. Not sure if that's better or worse.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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With a statement like this, "They'll never be more than fancy GPS systems on legs."...|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
She's not trolling, she's sincere. Not sure if that's better or worse.
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I dont think I believe that.
Being sincere about something means you believe it is true but there are already gizmos out there that are far more advanced than GPS'...which Im sure GG is aware of.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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With GG it's hard to say for certain. It's clear she often likes to play "Devil's Advocate" to help keep threads going. But based on many of her past responses she may actually believe that the current state of androids and AI in 2012 will never change or improve. She firmly knows what she knows and can't seem to envision things being different in the future. Sometimes blind naivety and stubbornness can mimic trolling given the right circumstance... *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
With a statement like this, "They'll never be more than fancy GPS systems on legs."...
I dont think I believe that. Being sincere about something means you believe it is true but there are already gizmos out there that are far more advanced than GPS'...which Im sure GG is aware of. |
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To say that such technology will never improve from now until the end of time (or at least until humans go extinct, technological singularities notwithstanding) is a rather bold statement to make. No credible scientist or engineer would tell you that, because they know better than to make such absolute statements with such sweeping judgments. That is, they actually use their brains to reason these things out. I'd like to know what makes her think she's such an absolute authority on the subject to be able to tell us that in no uncertain terms, this is never going to happen. Perhaps she was hit by some divine revelation?
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Originally Posted by Lothic
With GG it's hard to say for certain. It's clear she often likes to play "Devil's Advocate" to help keep threads going. But based on many of her past responses she may actually believe that the current state of androids and AI in 2012 will never change or improve. She firmly knows what she knows and can't seem to envision things being different in the future. Sometimes blind naivety and stubbornness can mimic trolling given the right circumstance... *shrugs*
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I make no claim to divine knowledge of any kind. All I know is that if she's the one that's been chosen to receive the "official" divine revelation then I fear for the future of all of us. |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
To say that such technology will never improve from now until the end of time (or at least until humans go extinct, technological singularities notwithstanding) is a rather bold statement to make. No credible scientist or engineer would tell you that, because they know better than to make such absolute statements with such sweeping judgments. That is, they actually use their brains to reason these things out. I'd like to know what makes her think she's such an absolute authority on the subject to be able to tell us that in no uncertain terms, this is never going to happen. Perhaps she was hit by some divine revelation?
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And I tend to think of how it could/should point to the unimportance of it.
Sentience/shmentience... eat some food, lookit the stars, grow up, die, blah blah blah.