New Archetype -- Buff/Debuff Primary with Melee Assault Secondary
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2011-12-31 16:05 in Suggestions and Ideas
Quote:
Within bounds for whom? An AT with only moderate damage and limited self mitigation? Or an AT with all the tools and capabilities to overshadow current support ATs? I don't quite see a precedence for either...Khelds and SoA are the only ATs with such an inherent and neither fit into what this AT should be capable of.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I'm just drawing on the precedent to show that low-grade mez protection as an inherent is well within the bounds of reason.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
This entire thread is all baseless speculation and "What if"s. No real numbers have been put forth and little to no set specifics have been mentioned.
|
Quote:
|
For a starting point though I would go with the following: 0.9melee damage mod 0.75buff/debuff mods Blaster level Hitpoints Melee sets more or less intact. -Something- to replace Taunt. Support sets modified to remove/change problem powers, or improve personal survivability/utility, as needed. Inherent power: Stoicism: 2-4mag protection and 50% resist to Sleep/Hold/Disorient only (just the toggle dropping mezzes). Values would of course require monitoring during testing. The point of the mez protection being so that you're not being constantly detoggled by every minion with a 10% chance to stun on their melee attack, or every AoE mez leveled at your tank that just happens to clip you. It's not intended to allow you to tank. |
"Melee Defender."
So, a squishy that's supposed to protect his or her team, while stnading next to the stuff that can blow them up?
why get close? You need to create a compelling image of the character you're thinking of before you go any further. create a concept hero or villain that represents the class, and let's see if the class can work in that concept.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
Quote:
How does Vigilance "Conceptualize" a Defender? Or Superior Conditioning an SoA?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Personally, I'd say start at the drawing board again. What is this AT suppose to be capable of? Who is this AT suppose to appeal to? What type of role is it suppose to play on a team? All this should be considered *before* trying to shoehorn mez resist into an inherent that is suppose to conceptualize the theme of the AT...
|
How about you try providing any kind of constructive input or your own ideas to the conversation instead of just criticizing what others have put forth?
To reach any kind of reasonable outcome a discussion has to be an exchange of ideas, so far all you've done in this thread at all is shoot things down. How about adding a little to it instead?
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Quote:
Easy. You're a Defender, like a guardian angel of your chosen teammates. Were your allies ever in need, you'll always have the will to help them. Say what you will about 'it rewards bad playing habits' or 'rewards you for not doing your job' but it has its uses and it does have a general concept linking to the theme of the AT.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
How does Vigilance "Conceptualize" a Defender?
|
And if you want me to explain Conditioning, I suggest you just read the wiki. The flavor text explains it just fine.
Want to know how I can tell the inherent mez protection doesn't conceptualize this suggested AT? Because you've provided no base concept for the AT to begin with. You put mez protection in the inherent as a patch to fix a possible issue. That isn't how you make ATs. I hope I'm making sense here...
Quote:
|
How about you try providing any kind of constructive input or your own ideas to the conversation instead of just criticizing what others have put forth? To reach any kind of reasonable outcome a discussion has to be an exchange of ideas, so far all you've done in this thread at all is shoot things down. How about adding a little to it instead? |
It's not that I don't have the ideas, it's just few will care.
Melee Defender is the D & D Marshall or Paladin. It should be rugged, but not tough like Collossus. They don't get the benefit of ranged attacks and have to get close to their opponents and risk getting hit with their strongest attacks, but for that lack of range they are tougher than Blasters. They are varied in what they can do and how they survive.
They are the rugged little generals that fight on the front lines and don't do a lot of damage, but they help those around them do more damage and stay alive longer.
They are a gritty tougher Defender, not a wuss just not superpowered levels.
Quote:
This is a good start for the character concept. It gives me a few ideas.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Melee Defender is the D & D Marshall or Paladin. It should be rugged, but not tough like Collossus. They don't get the benefit of ranged attacks and have to get close to their opponents and risk getting hit with their strongest attacks, but for that lack of range they are tougher than Blasters. They are varied in what they can do and how they survive.
They are the rugged little generals that fight on the front lines and don't do a lot of damage, but they help those around them do more damage and stay alive longer. They are a gritty tougher Defender, not a wuss just not superpowered levels. |
1. a variant of the mires. A close range PBAOE that either buffs several friendly targets and deals damage to a single enemy based on the number of friendlies buffed, or... an aoe that both buffs friendlies and debuffs enemies, the buffs get better for each enemy debuffed, and the debuffs get stronger for each friendly buffed. That encourages the player to be up front and in the action, but also encourages them to protect their teammates.
2. the class's first melee power should be at level 1, non-negotiable, and it should be a decent melee swing (damage wise) that heals a friendly target other than yourself nearby. Damage might need to be moderate to high to encourage the use of it to contribute to the team's offensive power, to fight the urge to simply slot away for healing and ignore offensive potential.
3. a bodyguard aura. Just like masterminds can put their pets into bodyguard mode, to "share" damage that would be dealt to the mastermind, you can put yourself into bodyguard mode and share some of the damage dealt to your teammates. might cause problems with incarnate trials that cheat for instakill damage.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
god what i would give for a Meelee "Field Support" AT:
Thorn Assault / Poison
Kinetic / Storm
Energy Assault / ForceField
obviously the sets would need some balance and tweaking, forcefield most of all, so the secondary consists of team buffs, enemy debuffs, and a little self buffs [but they mostly do this already]. up the hitpoints, damage of a defender i'd say [more than troller, less than blaster] give a new inherent and BAM... these combos would make me need new pants. this AT would be amazeballs.
just thinking about it even... :shivers of delight:
...
I'd also like to see another AT with the MM pets, but not sure how that would happen. More Hitpoints, different inherent [obvi], Primary is Self/Team Buffs [similar to SoA secondaries], secondary set is the pets with a little higher dmg on the Player's ranged attacks, increase End cost for secondary set attacks. Call it the "Field Commander" AT and... BAM!
yes it's different than a MM, and would play different. :P
BAM!
I'm on a roll.
Quote:
I actually came up with an idea for that, too. I was thinking of something like a "Phalanx Tank", who is able to tank as effectively as a Tanker or Brute, but only if they're using bodyguarding, effectively giving them two modes: Tanking, using BG, or DPS, using the pets in aggressive mode. If you wanna read more, its in the first link in my sig.
|
Originally Posted by daveyj3
<snip>
I'd also like to see another AT with the MM pets, but not sure how that would happen. More Hitpoints, different inherent [obvi], Primary is Self/Team Buffs [similar to SoA secondaries], secondary set is the pets with a little higher dmg on the Player's ranged attacks, increase End cost for secondary set attacks. Call it the "Field Commander" AT and... BAM! yes it's different than a MM, and would play different. :P <snip> |
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
Quote:
I'd give them trick arrow ... then tack on a minor M/R/AoE defense to all the powers. Have M/R/AoE be 10/30/20% def buff respectively(with all powers taken). Ranged Def and AoE def would be due to having his eyes at range for the arrow attacks. Ranged would be picked up in powers teir 1-4. AoE would be picked up powers teir 5-7. Melee would be just from combat expirience and would be picked up with teir 8-9 powers. Like SR all powers would be required for the full benefits.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Damage, same as Corrs. No Scourge. The extra damage is made up for by getting a small amount of Mez Protection.
Personally, Im not even thinking of replacing any of the melee attacks with shields, that can be obtained in an Epic pool. I'd say their defenses would be the buffs/debuffs that come with the buff/debuff set. Obviously some sets will be nicer to the meleer than others. I'd probably not even bother giving them Trick Arrow. |
Quote:
all you did was switch the primary and secondary powersets.|
Originally Posted by daveyj3
...
I'd also like to see another AT with the MM pets, but not sure how that would happen. More Hitpoints, different inherent [obvi], Primary is Self/Team Buffs [similar to SoA secondaries], secondary set is the pets with a little higher dmg on the Player's ranged attacks, increase End cost for secondary set attacks. Call it the "Field Commander" AT and... BAM! yes it's different than a MM, and would play different. :P BAM! I'm on a roll. |
Masterminds have support secondaries. "self/team buffs".
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
either the defenses need to be the same as scrapper with less HP, <-- The one I would like.
Or the defences less but with higher HP.
IMO: The defenses should be higher 2X the normal numbers and last 2X as long for the caster and they should be PBAoE clicks, or, the same numbers and should be toggles that can't be detoggled. I don't care if I (can be) mezzed, as long as my toggles don't turn off and heals can still be used. The detoggle effect should also apply to abilities that effect enemies.
My thought is this. It is a think outside the box type of powerset, and I personally like that. Sure, there might need to be some tweeking, but it allows some of the other classes some melee options, and of course would be balanced out. I think it's not a bad idea at all.
Mind you, I'm not a details guy, so the rest of you work it out 
Quote:
Sort of what I had in mind myself. Basically, a Paladin/Monk type of AT where one can really do some harm but have means of doing so other than directly such as through the help of their allies.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Melee Defender is the D & D Marshall or Paladin. It should be rugged, but not tough like Collossus. They don't get the benefit of ranged attacks and have to get close to their opponents and risk getting hit with their strongest attacks, but for that lack of range they are tougher than Blasters. They are varied in what they can do and how they survive.
They are the rugged little generals that fight on the front lines and don't do a lot of damage, but they help those around them do more damage and stay alive longer. They are a gritty tougher Defender, not a wuss just not superpowered levels. |
I have personally adopted the name 'Enforcer' as the AT's title as it could mean 'enforcer of law, good and justice' or 'enforcer of your will upon others'. It can be good or bad depending on your concept.
General comparative performance:
Melee - Stalker/Blaster (1.0 I believe)
Range - Corruptor
Personal Defense - Stalker
--HP/HP cap/resistance cap = Stalker
--Shields/self buff = Blaster (the lowest of the ATs)
Buff/Debuff - Corruptor
Control - Corruptor
Damage cap - Dominator
Another question would be whether this AT should have straight melee sets or assault sets. I've heard the arguments for assault sets but I'm rather torn. Many of them are quite good but some melee sets just offer more to upfront combat, not to mention there are more of them. So melee or assault?
The difference I've always proposed for the secondary (de)buff set is newly created sets of powers specifically balanced for the 'Enforcer AT' called 'Survival' which would simply have self shields and other utilities ranging from debuffs to team buffs. This would include mez protection for the simple fact that being able to nearly ignore one of the weakpoints of your team-support peers should not be given out lightly (in a passive inherent) and probably should require sacrifice to obtain.
Who this AT should appeal to is the players that enjoy using the melee sets, like the simplicity of the melee ATs but also want to provide for a team other than being the meatshield.
But how do you keep this AT in line without overshadowing the other support? That's easy. You don't give the AT access to all the support. It's already common knowledge that a 'healer' empathy that took all the heals but skipped or doesn't use the buffs is far less useful than an empathy that knows how to use all their powers. That technically doesn't make the 'healer' empathy direction 'useless' just limited.
The example sets:
Subzero Survival:
1. Infrigidate
2. Frozen Armor
3. Snow Storm
4. Hoarfrost
5. Ice Shield
6. Wet Ice
7. Glacial Shield
8. Glacial Armor
9. Benumb or Sleet
(You get comprehensive all-around protection vs what a Def gets in APPs including mez protection but that's in exchange for some of the better debuffs like Heatloss or the extra buffs like Frostworks/Arctic Fog...and on the other side, you miss out on the extra defensive powers the Tanker gets like Energy Absorption and Hibernate)
Shadow Survival:
1. Twilight Grasp
2. Dark Embrace
3. Tar Patch
4. Petrifying Gaze
5. Shadow Fall
6. Obsidian Shield
7. Murky Cloud
8. Cloak of Fear
9. Howling Twilight
Regenerating Survival:
1. Fast Healing
2. Heal Other
3. Reconstruction
4. Absorb Pain
5. Clear Mind
6. Integration
7. Dull Pain
8. Revive
9. Regeneration Aura
Storm Survival:
1. Gale
2. Charged Armor
3. O2 Boost
4. Snow Storm
5. Steamy Mist
6. Static Armor
7. Conductive Shield
8. Lightning Field
9. Freezing Rain
Ninjutsu Survival:
1. Sneak (stealth, +def)
2. Entangling Arrow
3. Ninja Reflexes
4. Flash Arrow
5. Poison Gas Arrow
6. Kuji-In Rin
7. Danger Sense
8. Blinding Powder
9. Oil Slick Arrow or Glue Arrow
Quote:
Word <3 Even some ranged sets aren't ranged friendly, same with buff/debuff, some aren't ranged friendly either. It's all in how we piece this stuff together. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Obviously some sets will be nicer to the meleer than others. I'd probably not even bother giving them Trick Arrow.
|
Quote:
Loooove that idea, didn't think about bringing together stuff like this, was kind of stuck in Ranged DMG/Melee defense sets. But then again I'm not sure what making this happen would accomplish (not being a dick by the way |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Regenerating Survival:
1. Fast Healing 2. Heal Other 3. Reconstruction 4. Absorb Pain 5. Clear Mind 6. Integration 7. Dull Pain 8. Revive 9. Regeneration Aura |
) Just to me it seems like putting together something like you're saying would be just pointless other than concepts and although I'm all for concept archetypes I know people and the CoX team would see it that way as well. My thoughts were on a Ranged-Tank (No not tank mage) I mean something with the output of a tank for damage but in ranged form and maybe even a few tweaks to make some of the melee DEF sets add more to ranged DEF instead you know what I mean?I thought that would be cool because I've seen lots of games make ranged-tanks and they were pretty well done and not overpowered at all, very fun infact lol I don't know, just spitballing
EDIT: Ah, I'm sleepy
You're saying Melee/ DEF/Buff/Debuffy style I gotcha, haha. (Reason I didn't remove the post is because I still like the idea of a ranged-tank so I'mma leave it up anyway ) Kristen actualy created something like this that I loved the idea for, it's called a Crusader, check it out in their link here http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278532 It's not a bad idea, really a bit like what you're on about there.
Quote:
if you limit your thinking to "all you did was switch primary with secondary" then you must see tanks, brutes, scrappers, and stalkers as the same thing, and corruptors and defenders as the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
all you did was switch the primary and secondary powersets.
Masterminds have support secondaries. "self/team buffs". |
they all have different inherents, different stats, and different damage and buff/debuff numbers. this, along with switched powersets makes the game play completely different. also, as i suggested, a primary similar to SoA secondary is not the same as the current buff sets. the new primary for such an AT would include a few more powers from the meelee self-buff sets to replace some of the enemy debuff powers making the set self and team based more instead of enemy debuff based.
hence... it would be a new AT.
Quote:
1. I would say this set would have to be Melee only and no Ranged Attacks outside of Ancillary Pools. The safety and positioning advantage of being ranged is what this Archetype gives up and is not good at. It is one of the things that keep it from being a Tankmage. To be honest, before I gave this set Ranged attacks, I'd seriously think about giving the Archetype weakened forms of minions like a Mastermind (IE less of them and without minion upgrade powers). |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Another question would be whether this AT should have straight melee sets or assault sets. I've heard the arguments for assault sets but I'm rather torn. Many of them are quite good but some melee sets just offer more to upfront combat, not to mention there are more of them. So melee or assault?
The difference I've always proposed for the secondary (de)buff set is newly created sets of powers specifically balanced for the 'Enforcer AT' called 'Survival' which would simply have self shields and other utilities ranging from debuffs to team buffs. This would include mez protection for the simple fact that being able to nearly ignore one of the weakpoints of your team-support peers should not be given out lightly (in a passive inherent) and probably should require sacrifice to obtain... But how do you keep this AT in line without overshadowing the other support? That's easy. You don't give the AT access to all the support. It's already common knowledge that a 'healer' empathy that took all the heals but skipped or doesn't use the buffs is far less useful than an empathy that knows how to use all their powers. That technically doesn't make the 'healer' empathy direction 'useless' just limited... |
2. I like the idea of trading and tweaking the way the Buff/Debuff powers are to change those powers to include some level of shielding for Melee Defender. Along those lines, I'd suggest that maybe the Melee Defender should have Mastermind level Offensive Buffs and De-Buffs and Defender level Defensive Buffs and Debuffs. Thus, the Melee Defender would get the benefits that help it and the team stay alive, but not the killing things quickly benefit.
Offensive Buffs -- Damage Boost from Fulcrum Shift
Defensive Debuff -- Minus Damage from Fulcrum Shift
3. Not outshining the existing buffing classes would be pretty easy with the breakdown I showed above. I also liked your idea of not porting over every single power from the Defender trees. Missing powers would equal things that other toons could do that this Archetype could not do.
Quote:
yes to almost everything |
Originally Posted by Talionis
1. I would say this set would have to be Melee only and no Ranged Attacks outside of Ancillary Pools. The safety and positioning advantage of being ranged is what this Archetype gives up and is not good at. It is one of the things that keep it from being a Tankmage. To be honest, before I gave this set Ranged attacks, I'd seriously think about giving the Archetype weakened forms of minions like a Mastermind (IE less of them and without minion upgrade powers).
2. I like the idea of trading and tweaking the way the Buff/Debuff powers are to change those powers to include some level of shielding for Melee Defender. Along those lines, I'd suggest that maybe the Melee Defender should have Mastermind level Offensive Buffs and De-Buffs and Defender level Defensive Buffs and Debuffs. Thus, the Melee Defender would get the benefits that help it and the team stay alive, but not the killing things quickly benefit. Offensive Buffs -- Damage Boost from Fulcrum Shift Defensive Debuff -- Minus Damage from Fulcrum Shift 3. Not outshining the existing buffing classes would be pretty easy with the breakdown I showed above. I also liked your idea of not porting over every single power from the Defender trees. Missing powers would equal things that other toons could do that this Archetype could not do. |
buuuttt i would still prefer it to have the assault sets, with a couple ranged attacks. i would rather, have it be a reduced damage AT... since the self/team buffs would be it's primary, right?
or like you suggested and i think i mentioned, the self/team buffs along the lines of what a SoA has, and the attack secondary being similar to a MMs. of course, different inherent, different base stats, and a couple different effects to pet goody powers, OR... instead of upgrades: meelee attacks.
Quote:
I disagree on Ranged Attacks in the Primary or Secondary. The only caveat I would give is that Claws and Spines both have some Ranged Attacks that are already in those and they would be ok. |
Originally Posted by daveyj3
yes to almost everything
buuuttt i would still prefer it to have the assault sets, with a couple ranged attacks. i would rather, have it be a reduced damage AT... since the self/team buffs would be it's primary, right? or like you suggested and i think i mentioned, the self/team buffs along the lines of what a SoA has, and the attack secondary being similar to a MMs. of course, different inherent, different base stats, and a couple different effects to pet goody powers, OR... instead of upgrades: meelee attacks. |
The other thing Devs might do is increase the range of some of the AoE powers like Consume. Especially those powers that have debuffs attached to them or could have Debuffs added to them. Devs might also pay attention to adding some debuffs to the attacks, much like Defender Debuffs are included in most of the Defender Secondaries.
You also have an opportunity for Ranged attacks in the Ancillary. If you like at Brutes I've seen some funny builds that late become Ranged Attacks because they focus on all the ranged attacks in the ancillaries and get enough Recharge to get those attacks up in a chain.
Having ranged attacks would make the Archetype far too similar to both Corrupters and Defenders that already exist. It needs to be squarely and strongly different.
Quote:
I think the game is ready for Ranged-Tanks. I think giving the ranged attacks a taunt like how tanks have it built into their attacks would be sweet. Not a tankmage, a Range-Tank is different. |
Originally Posted by Talionis
I disagree on Ranged Attacks in the Primary or Secondary. The only caveat I would give is that Claws and Spines both have some Ranged Attacks that are already in those and they would be ok.
The other thing Devs might do is increase the range of some of the AoE powers like Consume. Especially those powers that have debuffs attached to them or could have Debuffs added to them. Devs might also pay attention to adding some debuffs to the attacks, much like Defender Debuffs are included in most of the Defender Secondaries. You also have an opportunity for Ranged attacks in the Ancillary. If you like at Brutes I've seen some funny builds that late become Ranged Attacks because they focus on all the ranged attacks in the ancillaries and get enough Recharge to get those attacks up in a chain. Having ranged attacks would make the Archetype far too similar to both Corrupters and Defenders that already exist. It needs to be squarely and strongly different. |
Quote:
Even if the game is ready for a "Ranged Tank"; the thought is really counter to what this proposed Archetype would be. I would even suggest, that you can already make a ranged Tank. Take a Forcefield Defender and max out all its Defense Abilities. That would be a ranged tank. If you need even more tank than that, you can go ranged Brute. I think Mu allows for 3 or 4 ranged attacks in one of its Ancillary Power Pools and many people have made successful ranged Brutes. |
Originally Posted by Dekoy
I think the game is ready for Ranged-Tanks. I think giving the ranged attacks a taunt like how tanks have it built into their attacks would be sweet. Not a tankmage, a Range-Tank is different.
|
We already have a Ranged Buff/Debuff set, actually two (Corrupters & Defenders).
This Archetype is designed to be able to Buff and Debuff in Melee. Melee and Ranged are pretty much the opposite of one another.
Quote:
No no no I meant as an entirely different archetype to what you're talking about, heh not that what you want isn't a good idea, I'm just tossing out there my idea. And really I'm not saying make one out of an existing archetype... I'd rather be able to pick my own powers as apposed to picking something specific just to make that. I want to be a ranged tank without that feeling of restriction, you know? (Also, not sure if you're getting pissy at me or not, but I'm talking in a friendly tone heh) I don't remember but if I can recall right, the brute the patron abilities and such don't have the taunt built in do they? Hm.. anyway, yeah, just saying.
|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Even if the game is ready for a "Ranged Tank"; the thought is really counter to what this proposed Archetype would be. I would even suggest, that you can already make a ranged Tank. Take a Forcefield Defender and max out all its Defense Abilities. That would be a ranged tank. If you need even more tank than that, you can go ranged Brute. I think Mu allows for 3 or 4 ranged attacks in one of its Ancillary Power Pools and many people have made successful ranged Brutes.
We already have a Ranged Buff/Debuff set, actually two (Corrupters & Defenders). This Archetype is designed to be able to Buff and Debuff in Melee. Melee and Ranged are pretty much the opposite of one another. |
I was thinking this set would need higher hit points, possibly bruTe or scrapper level hit points. The archetype has potential to be pretty swingy. Being in melee also opens you to more damaging attacks.
I think the damage and buff levels would depend on what is primaryand what are the secondary power set.
The game is at a point where less easily played archetypes might be seen as a challenge.
Kinetics is a set based in melee, making it work would be fun and it has a good heal.
But we have had good suggestions and bringing up difficulties to overcome is good too.