Blaster Manifesto
You do realize what is being spoken of here is scattering a mob which means an AE power?
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Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast are the only two powers out of nine that deal in area knockback which aren't likely to kill a spawn by themselves. |
Gee, that doesn't sound like asking the blaster to sit on his thumbs to me. What makes it sound like that to you? |
The point is compromise. If the player wants to AoE blast and is willing to hold off until you're fighting near a wall or corner then what's so difficult about fighting near one when the opportunity arises?
But I am just here trying to harsh on some poor blaster's fun, right? |
If they were to ask if you could fight near walls where possible and you said no, then you kind of would be impacting their fun and doing so probably in much the same way that scattering the spawn would be to you.
If 6 people prefer something one way and 1 person wants the opposite, why are the 6 conforming to the 1? |
I don't know, personally this whole issue is why I hover-blast on my energy blaster (well that and I really like the flight pool). I get to use nearly all of my powers with minimal fuss for the melee folks.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
You forgot about nova, which also won't kill a spawn by itself in all cases. It also drops the poor energy blaster to only having three damage powers from their primary.
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No, it's not, and I never said it was. If it seemed like I did then I either misspoke or just wasn't clear enough. It is however asking the energy blaster not to use 2 out of the 5 main attack powers in their blast set which may be the only easily usable attack powers they have if they're unfortunate enough to have /devices as their secondary. It's also missing the point. The point is compromise. If the player wants to AoE blast and is willing to hold off until you're fighting near a wall or corner then what's so difficult about fighting near one when the opportunity arises? |
No, you're not. If you ask them not to use AoE and they do it anyway repeatedly they're not really someone you'd want to play with (well give them a couple shots, they might be distracted or something). |
If they were to ask if you could fight near walls where possible and you said no, then you kind of would be impacting their fun and doing so probably in much the same way that scattering the spawn would be to you. |
Is there any good reason not to compromise? If you compromise you end up with 7 people having fun instead of just 6. What's so bad about that 7th person that they don't deserve to have as much fun as the other 6? Now if what that 7th person wants is so out of the way or aggravating that it ruins the fun for the other 6, like say ... using KB willy-nilly, then that's not really a compromise. |
I don't know, personally this whole issue is why I hover-blast on my energy blaster (well that and I really like the flight pool). I get to use nearly all of my powers with minimal fuss for the melee folks. |
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You know if you had a clue Erratic I would care - but I have in past threads again and again over the years offered you a chance to join an all knockback team - one where EVERYONE uses whatever powers they want.
You never bother and so I won't bother with you any longer.
A mention of blasters from you is always followed by KNOCKBACK. I assume someone once knocked your cat out of the window or something. Your aversion to knockback and the style you must play on a team where everything must be neatly stacked in its place before anyone is allowed to attck would have me quitting in 5 minutes.
Perhaps you were the leader the other day when in an 8 man TF the leader insisted each time we stay together and wait for the tank each time - mean while we had split into 2 - 4 man groups just tearing up 2 separate locations with no danger. The leader kept screaming and complaining that this wasn't the best idea all while we cleared the mission in just a few minutes.
After the end of that mission I asked - are you going to tell us how to play the entire TF? He said well I am leader - I quit and so did 5 other players.
So please let me know what your global is in case you aren't on my /ignore already. My global is @iron so please do me the favor of ignoring me.
Odd that Nova won't kill a spawn by itself. When my blaster uses her tier 9 power things die and it does less damage than Nova.
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You're twisting or ignoring what I specifically wrote. Which is in line with what I've said in the thread. Which is precisely what I've said. |
As you do and are willing to use it, you've already compromised by taking powers that help you work in group situations. |
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
See, that's not compromise. For one I like flight and take it on the vast majority of my characters (100% of my male characters ... I hate that lumbering run). For another if I did take hover/fly just to AoE it'd just be me capitulating to the group that wasn't doing much of anything to meet me even partway.
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You are going out of your way to do things (like using knockback in corners or against walls and hovering so knockback becomes knockdown) that take into consideration other players. You don't call that compromise? Sounds to me like you're disagreeing for the sake of it but fine. . .whatever the heck it is, it isn't the annoyance I spoke of, which was sccattering spawns.
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An example of compromise would be if I didn't have hover and when asked not to I then didn't AoE spawns unless they were near walls or corners. And then the team went a little out of their way to fight near walls and corners so that I could still use my AoE somewhat effectively.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
To watch someone run in and Nuke KbAoE a spawn first thing only to have spread mobs hardly dented, outside of cone range, outside of small aoes like debuffs, anchors knocked over the edge of some balcony..
You'd think that the blaster, after seeing this effect would then allow the team to do what they did as it was more efficient, whilst minimising inefficiency and use the nuke as finisher... As a Tanker one can herd and pull down a wall length where possible before the blaster gets to the front, mobs spread along a wall can be kbed to the wall. But when said Nuking Blaster is up a Tankers butt, like it was the safest place to be, ready with that nuke it just better to run in without the aura on. As someone with several energy blasts and four stormies, there is good kb and there is "who let the four year old at the keyboard?" kb. |
"Look, personally I just want a new issue to feature changes that don't cause a mass exodus of players..."
Issue 17: We Didn't Break Anything!
How to suck at CoX
Literally the Best Build Ever: Years in the Making
Aye there be a lot of 4 year olds in this game. The ones who regardless of what the argument is about, feel that only their side can possibly be right. What if all the Knockback in Energy Blast was converted to Knockdown? What percentage of players would be happy, and what percentage would be pissed?
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Of course I would also want them to keep Knockback enhancements in the game so people who want to do knockback can still do so.
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Aye there be a lot of 4 year olds in this game. The ones who regardless of what the argument is about, feel that only their side can possibly be right. What if all the Knockback in Energy Blast was converted to Knockdown? What percentage of players would be happy, and what percentage would be pissed?
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I'd actually really love it if every damage set had one attack that had a chance for knock-back or knock-up. I wouldn't ever really try to suggest that, but I know I'd enjoy it.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
I'd personally imagine more would be happy than not. Personally I'd be pretty annoyed. Not only has knockback been a godsend for survivability on my squishy characters but personally I really enjoy it. There's something very satisfying to me about having an attack hit and seeing the enemy go flying back.
I'd actually really love it if every damage set had one attack that had a chance for knock-back or knock-up. I wouldn't ever really try to suggest that, but I know I'd enjoy it. |
I've never been a big fan of this suggestion since it would generally mean that anyone who actually wanted to do knock-back would end up 'gimping' their powers in some way if they wanted to slot for the effect. Now if they wanted to do something like give energy blast users a swap-ammo type power that let them toggle on and off the KB without effecting their power slotting then I don't think I'd complain.
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In any event, I do believe the question was a hypothetical and not a suggestion to the developers.
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Wasn't the argument for knockback that with the mob on its butt that it wasn't doing damage? Knockdown puts the mob on its butt. As for enhancements causing you to gimp your powers, you're slotting Accuracy and 3 Damage SOs in your powers leaving you two free slots. It is not like Ice Blast users don't have to slot Slow enhancements if they want more than a basic level of slowing on their targets. Given Knockdown and Knockback are the same effect tuned to different values I am seeing a parallel. And its not like a target being repeatedly put on its butt is getting closer to you anyway, so what is the loss with knockdown as opposed to knockback?
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Most people would probably slot a rech and an end reducer in those last two slots so if you wanted to put in a KB enhancer you'd have to drop one of those two things that you would otherwise have had in your power. It's one of the reasons I don't see a lot of people on the boards who advocate slotting ice blast powers for slow.
In any event, I do believe the question was a hypothetical and not a suggestion to the developers. |
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
Knockdown is great, but even with it enemies would inevitably close the gap with a player.
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Personally I'm a little lazy when soloing and I'd much rather move the enemy than I would move myself. Knockback lets me keep groups of enemies away from me and outside of melee range where (in general) the attacks do more damage to me. Plus you can do some fun things with knockback and the devices set that you just can't with knockdown. And as I said before there's a visceral satisfaction I get from knockback that I just don't get from knockdown. |
Most people would probably slot a rech and an end reducer in those last two slots so if you wanted to put in a KB enhancer you'd have to drop one of those two things that you would otherwise have had in your power. It's one of the reasons I don't see a lot of people on the boards who advocate slotting ice blast powers for slow. |
Of course it was a hypothetical. Most any suggestion we come up with and discuss on these boards are pretty much hypothetical. Can't I agree with or disagree with and offer suggestions to hypotheticals? |
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Yeah it's just that, although I love reading knockback love/hate threads just as much as I loved reading Dominator love/hate threads in I6, I know that most people who are bothered by knockback are ironically strong advocates of knockdown. Knockdown is the better alternative in soooo so many situations, and the reason why people love powers like Ice Slick and Earthquake, but puke blood when someone tosses a Bonfire first thing into the center of a group. It really makes me wish for some kind of enemy debuff like a controller's cages that adds all that -10000% resistance to knockback, but without the PROTECTION to knockback, which would turn everything into knockdown.
That's why I wanted to see which people would play (or just not hate as much) Energy Blast if it was only Knockdown. The swap ammo idea was great, except it would probably take the spot that Aim occupies if they treat it the same as Dual Pistols; Actually I guess I'm not sure at all how the Devs would decide to implement that but it'll probably never happen anyways.
"Look, personally I just want a new issue to feature changes that don't cause a mass exodus of players..."
Issue 17: We Didn't Break Anything!
How to suck at CoX
Literally the Best Build Ever: Years in the Making
I am bentley Berkeley of Virtue. A 50 Psi/ment/force blaster who has NO EQUAL in my fields of leading pug TFs of any AT configuration at an exceptional pace and being an all around old time lore RPer who mentors many young heroes. My ego ofcourse fuels my psi/ment powers so dont be surprised by it.
Its no secret many speak il of the psi/ment set. Making such insane claims that the set is the weakest DPS and most useless all around. All false and based on something as meaningless in a world of fiction called math. pff math. No mentats exist among these forums. None can take into account years of experiance, a spiritual connection to the AT, nor an absolute devotion to the art of Blasting.
Blasters do not need major overhauls. They do not need every 2ndary redesigned to a defensive so we can mimic vile corruptors.
I would say perhaps every old secondary from launch could stand a review and have one or two current throw away powers in each set changed to somekind of real self heal/recovery power.
But in general the reason why most blasters complain about thier play experiance is a lack of understanding created by the falsehoods spread on these forums.
Blasters are no less then any other warrior caste AT and are the true front line.
Simple facts like yesterday I lead an ITF I formed in about 5 minutes composed of random puggers varying in level from 38 to 50+ like myself.
The poor brute who was a valiant warrior mistakenly assumed they where the front line. Soon they learned to follow where my psi tornadoes where flying towards. We had several other blasters on the team including another almost mirroring myself which was lovely. we had no Healers per se though the bubbler def was ideal to compliment my own self healing style of play. Never do the teams complain at the end but give thanks for the swift and painless tf. In this case it was about 45 minutes as Id promised based on my initial expectation based on the team that had formed.
When you have a stallion let it run is what I say.
or last night I ran a 4 man synapse tf. under 2 hours. tank spent most of the time trying to catch up to me, the defender joked about not ever needing to use thier major powers, the stalker had fun getting to AS now and then which usually put down the odd boss I didnt bother to focus on. Again thanks from all of them not a oh no you dont hang back behind the tank, oh no you follow KBed targets around and charged right into mobs. Why because a real blaster does those things ALWAYS and real players know this. A real blaster ofcourse doesnt need the rest of the group but is there to help them anyways out of selfless kindess. Be thankful when a blaster comes to speed up your otherwise slow dreary day.
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"Look, personally I just want a new issue to feature changes that don't cause a mass exodus of players..."
Issue 17: We Didn't Break Anything!
How to suck at CoX
Literally the Best Build Ever: Years in the Making
Well, I play a lot of tanks, and maybe I am old school holy trio player (and no I take everyone on a team because to me this is a game and fun is fun) However on knock back I have one request..let me know when you are going to do something cool so I can see it. :P I miss out on a lot being face to face, knee, bellybutton (hey I make short tanks). As for losing agro? My tanks don't. Period. You knock em away they come running back to me.
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
Contrary to popular belief I did NOT intend for this thread to devolve into a KB hate thread. I was merely asking for the playerbase to acknowledge that ALL ATs need to work together to make the game more fun for everyone. Solo play is fine and we should do as we please. But we should ALL be a little more considerate to others when we team in the spirit of fun.
As to some of the other discussions, I have my own beliefs with regards to Blasters:
1) I am The Blaster, there shall be no Blasters before me. The Blaster AT is designed first and foremost to do damage. With Inventions, Incarnate Powers and so forth it is now possible for other ATs to out-damage us in the short term. However I believe that any changes made to ATs in the future should remember that overall Blasters are supposed to deal more damage on average over time. All else is secondary.
2) I am The Blaster. Whether it be ranged or melee, I shall do damage. Some players prefer ranged combat while some like to Blap. To each their own. However this is another one of those areas where the player needs to show some consideration to the team. If you die solo, that's on you. If you die on a team then the team is diminished. Therefore it is in YOUR best interest to think about the team (this goes for every AT really). If you require or expect Heals, don't hide from the teammate who throws them. If your Rain of Fire would do MORE damage after your teammate's AoE Immobilize, tell him to lead with it and then follow up. If it works even better after a Tank herd then work together. A meal tastes better when everyone at the table pitches in to prepare it.
3) All things have a place...generally face-down on the floor. Yes, Knock-Down is more team-friendly than Knock-Back. But as has been stated here before we can all work together to make things more fun. You have a Explosion with massive KB potential? Throw it on the EDGE of the mob to divert them into a wall or corner instead of putting it dead center and scattering everyone. You have Hover and a KB Cone? They why AREN'T you blasting bad guys down to keep them off of you as well as the team?
Blasters do damage. It's part of our DNA. It's usually all we have to bring to the table. But like all tools there is often a better way to use what we have. Sometimes doing a lot of damage isn't enough. We need to do it WISELY in order to maximize our potential.
Blasters are like fighter pilots. Elite, skilled (the good ones anyway), cocky. We're proud but we've earned the right to be. Do we swagger a bit? Sure we do. So does the Tank who maxes his aggro without taking a hit or Defender who debuffs everything in sight. But like said fighter pilot we need to remember that the tools we wield can be helpful OR harmful. Firing without thinking is seldom a good idea.
I am a Blaster and I support this message.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
A new blaster...dies alot. Know what though? So do new everyone elses. Some ATs have an easier learning curve. This is especially true for sets with built in self sustainability powers.
Its also no secret that there are those who are stuck in, and I apologize for the negative connotation but it is there for a reason, of being too much a wowtard or holy trinity mentality.
COX has survived and even come to thrive in the shadow of WoW becuase it is NOT WoW. Even in first year people struggled to break the limits of thier ATs. Tankers wanted to do dmg, blasters wanted to survive, defenders wanted to do more then support.
And through long trial and error along with no little effort in time we did so. We all together won that war to get to the game we have now. However its not always easy for people to accept, to trust in the unknown which is maybe most especially true when dealing with unknown blasters.
Its also hard for some to admit thier own weakness, thier own inability to be truly adaptive, which is what those defense gifted ATs admit to when they suggest that mobs being knocked back from them might make them vulnerable.
I only have one 50 blaster. I have played many as I have said, but I deleted every one somewhere along the way, even my first years, and have no regret thanks to my success with Bentley Berkeley.
Scrappers on the other hand I have numerous 50s, in a variety of powersets, Including my oldest 50 and only first year I have left.
Among them is my claw/will power known as Invisble Falcon of virtue. WP ofcourse is one of those sets that thrives on massive aggro. Yet claw ofcourse has several notable KB including a good sized cone one. I never hesitate to use ALL of my attacks especially AOEs to thin herds of trash quickly. I ofcourse am a master of using KB to herd groups where I want and favor it to the dull aggro and let em come style found in less interesting MMO.
If you dont like KB and one on your party uses it, leave the group. DOnt ask others to ruin thier own experiance for you. GO find a new group or learn to play better with others. Every power is here to be chosen if someone enjoys it. That is why people take certain powers. COX is not a game ruled by numbers style play like others as most so driven on that aspect tend to be TERRIBLE players in my experiance. Using character builders, or forum cookie cutters rarely lead to a player developing into an effective citizen of paragon. COX is alot more skill based and when I say skill I mean actual practical experiance in game using the various powers in a variety of content, at a variety of levels. If your build Only works once it reaches a certain threshold, or falls apart when it exemps down, your as gimp as they come. A real COX player can just pick 2 sets and in his head instantly see what powers he will take at which lvl, how he will slot them, how he will set them, and how he will even respec them later for differenent higher end sets.
You know what I was wrong earlier, we real cox players are kind of mentats when it comes to this game.
Well, I play a lot of tanks, and maybe I am old school holy trio player (and no I take everyone on a team because to me this is a game and fun is fun) However on knock back I have one request..let me know when you are going to do something cool so I can see it. :P I miss out on a lot being face to face, knee, bellybutton (hey I make short tanks). As for losing agro? My tanks don't. Period. You knock em away they come running back to me.
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A real tank doesnt ***** about losing aggro simple as that.
I have a Energy/Energy blaster its pretty fun. I get a little "angry brute rage" from AoE knocking plp back, but I don't really pay any attention. I play a few melee toons. A fire brute, ice tank, shield scraper, energy stalker. I don't get upset when the mob gets pushed back. People who don't like kbs probably wouldn't have anything against it being removed from the game. I have loads of fun with it.
Kill the enemy. Take their souls. Drink their blood.
Blasters do damage. It's part of our DNA. It's usually all we have to bring to the table. But like all tools there is often a better way to use what we have. Sometimes doing a lot of damage isn't enough. We need to do it WISELY in order to maximize our potential.
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Under construction
Just how many non-AE powers do knockback sets have that presumably allow a Blaster who has chosen one to continue to output damage?
Let's look at. . .oh, I don't know. . .let's say Energy Blast as a set, shall we?
Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast are the only two powers out of nine that deal in area knockback which aren't likely to kill a spawn by themselves.
Gee, that doesn't sound like asking the blaster to sit on his thumbs to me. What makes it sound like that to you?
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