Really guys...are you kidding me?! I would say Damage wise at the very end game a Dom and controller are Equal. With Ageless perma my Earth/Thorn and Plant/Fire and Kill JUST as fast as an Fire/Kin. Heck Doms catch up with most controllers once they get their hands on Sleet and Rain of Fire anyway.
I think it's apples and oranges and it depends on what you are looking for with your toon. I would suggest Plant anything. Your team will miss your seeds of confusion when you leave lol.
I shall take the advice of a fellow Virginian and roll a plant-dom as well. I tried them when they first came out, but I disliked the Rogue Isles so much, I never played any villains other than my bots/traps MM past lvl 5. Now my MM is a rogue who is working blue-side until I get my patron PP and then I'm going full hero.
Victory
Schattenbolt - Blaster Elec/Elec/Elec
Pierce Steele - Blaster Arch/MM/Munitions
Paragons of Victory
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Nope, not kidding. Many controller builds will be far from reach, in terms of dmg, for any Dom. You like Plant/ right? It's your favorite. A plant/kin or a plant/storm will out-damage any Dominator build, for the most part or in general when all powers are available from secondary and primary and add Epics if you will.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Really guys...are you kidding me?! I would say Damage wise at the very end game a Dom and controller are Equal. With Ageless perma my Earth/Thorn and Plant/Fire and Kill JUST as fast as an Fire/Kin. Heck Doms catch up with most controllers once they get their hands on Sleet and Rain of Fire anyway.
I think it's apples and oranges and it depends on what you are looking for with your toon. I would suggest Plant anything. Your team will miss your seeds of confusion when you leave lol. |
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
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On my plant/psi/fire I can solo +4x8, though I prefer to solo at +2x8. That is with permadom, 17% SL def and a handful of low tier incarnate powers. Yes, I really only have 17% SL def.
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Originally Posted by schattenbolt
I see value in each of y'alls posts, and they really do go far to explain Dominators. I am curious. Outside of mezzes for mitigation, how fragile are Dominators? Are they middle of the road like Controllers? Are they glass-cannons like Blasters?
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With the APP changes and Ageless; Doms are damage dealing Machines Commando. For example: within 15 seconds a Plant/Kin/Fire (with Full Fulcrum, Full SS, Hasten, Spiritual Core Paragon at 182% Global Recharge), Counting cast times and rounding them up dished out Roughly: 3,038 points of damage from just using Fireball and Fire Blast.|
Originally Posted by Commando
Nope, not kidding. Many controller builds will be far from reach, in terms of dmg, for any Dom. You like Plant/ right? It's your favorite. A plant/kin or a plant/storm will out-damage any Dominator build, for the most part or in general when all powers are available from secondary and primary and add Epics if you will.
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Now with my Plant/Fire/Fire (with hasten and Spiritual Core Paragon 180% of global recharge) starting off with Embrace of Fire my dom can dish out 2,650 points of damage from just using Fireball and Blaze.
Clearly here the controller comes out on top but one has to factor in all the quirks of being a Kin. You have to get SS stacked 3 times, you have to get Fulcrum at full 10 sometimes both tasks are difficult to achieve. The only other Dmg that you have is Roots (roots dealt 730 dmg within 15 seconds due to containment. Roots takes longer to deal that much dmg but bare with me) and Creepers which adds even more damage to the table.
Now with a Dom you have roots and Creepers just like a controller...but you also have RoF, Fire Breath, Fire Blast, Flares and Combustion at your disposal. Now tell me good sir how my Plant/Fire/Fire can't come close or match up with a controller in damage?
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Todd,|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
With the APP changes and Ageless; Doms are damage dealing Machines Commando. For example: within 15 seconds a Plant/Kin/Fire (with Full Fulcrum, Full SS, Hasten, Spiritual Core Paragon at 182% Global Recharge), Counting cast times and rounding them up dished out Roughly: 3,038 points of damage from just using Fireball and Fire Blast.
Now with my Plant/Fire/Fire (with hasten and Spiritual Core Paragon 180% of global recharge) starting off with Embrace of Fire my dom can dish out 2,650 points of damage from just using Fireball and Blaze. Clearly here the controller comes out on top but one has to factor in all the quirks of being a Kin. You have to get SS stacked 3 times, you have to get Fulcrum at full 10 sometimes both tasks are difficult to achieve. The only other Dmg that you have is Roots (roots dealt 730 dmg within 15 seconds due to containment. Roots takes longer to deal that much dmg but bare with me) and Creepers which adds even more damage to the table. Now with a Dom you have roots and Creepers just like a controller...but you also have RoF, Fire Breath, Fire Blast, Flares and Combustion at your disposal. Now tell me good sir how my Plant/Fire/Fire can't come close or match up with a controller in damage? |
With fulcrum shift added, the race is over. Roots, creepers, hold, the pet, fireball, fireblast, every dmg dealing tool is exponentially increased, then add containment.
The plant/storm controller which you left out of your response, good sir, has another array of dmg dealing tools. But you know all this, todd. I am a big fan of Dominators, and I love them, really. I just don't let that block my objectivity.
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
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Heh. I feel you are not so much talking 'controllers,' but more '/kinetics.' Damage capped characters will always be top at damage, strangely enough. Other combos are more frequently equivalent, or lesser, depending on combinations. Plant/storm might have more of an equivalency with something like a fire^3 dominator, for instance, while a mind/nrg dom and ice/ff controller would be quite different as well.|
Originally Posted by Commando
Todd,
With fulcrum shift added, the race is over. Roots, creepers, hold, the pet, fireball, fireblast, every dmg dealing tool is exponentially increased, then add containment. The plant/storm controller which you left out of your response, good sir, has another array of dmg dealing tools. But you know all this, todd. I am a big fan of Dominators, and I love them, really. I just don't let that block my objectivity. |
..................
Back on topic:
As has been mentioned, dominators are all about locking things down then knocking them out. But HOW one does it comes down mostly to the primary, and then the secondary, should it supply mitigation. Mind/ has the best direct control for dominators, but because of that, mind dominators are far more interactive. You have to target things, time things, etc. to supply yourself (and your team) with safety. This is in contrast with patch-based/toggle based controlls like earth/ and electric/ which supply perhaps lower but certainly more continuous/hands off controls.
Secondaries for dominators run the full gamut from /fire and its 'let the primary do the work, I just kill stuff!' to the control heavy sets like /energy and /earth that ragdoll/mez stuff until it's dead leaving you pretty safe.
So it's kind of a non-answer, but dominator powersets heavily skew how a character approaches a fight. "Lock down, then kill" (Or just kill if it can't survive you long enough for you to worry) is as always the rule of thumb, but how you do that depends on your combo of choice.
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I left out the Plant/Storm because that's way to much math lol. Actually if you re-read my post I added in Fulcrum's Max damage boost and containment numbers to ALL of the powers! So yeah, Dominators are not far behind and in some instances they can match up with a controller. |
Originally Posted by Commando
Todd,
With fulcrum shift added, the race is over. Roots, creepers, hold, the pet, fireball, fireblast, every dmg dealing tool is exponentially increased, then add containment. The plant/storm controller which you left out of your response, good sir, has another array of dmg dealing tools. But you know all this, todd. I am a big fan of Dominators, and I love them, really. I just don't let that block my objectivity. |
A Fire/Fire dom with Embrace of Fire: just a few seconds away from perma can easily get close to the damage output of a Fire/Kin/Fire Controller. Do the math Commando the answer is there!
/Storm is hard to do anyway. Since the duration of powers are longer I would have to widen the damage window and I'm not that dead set on proving a point lol (Plus I'm no Luminara or Arcanaville). Controllers do have their extremes like for instance /Storm which I feel can out damage most things in the game when it comes to ST damage and /Poison with it's potential to put out some crazy -Res Numbers.
The point of this discussion for me is to say that a Dominator is no slouch in the damage department and in many cases can match a controller in damage.
I'm glad you don't let that hold you back Commando but I think you don't realize that dominators are more powerful than you think.
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I'd go so far as to change that to "in almost every non-outlier case", but I'm sure someone would then argue because there's no clear definition of what an outlier for each AT entails.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
The point of this discussion for me is to say that a Dominator is no slouch in the damage department and in many cases can match a controller in damage.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Here is a list of damage using the most frequently selected powers in all of plant/fire/ice Doms. Embrace of fire is in effect. The following numbers are base damage numbers only. No enhancements, no incarnate abilities are selected. This makes the math much easier. At the very bottom I add the data links to 3 builds, plant/fire/ice Dom, plant/kinetics/ice Controller, plant/fire/fire Dom
Strangler97.63
Flares85.79
Roots53.25
Fire Blast207.2
Creepers118.8
Blaze310.8
Ice Storm294.3
Dom with fire mastery
Fire ball -- 250.8
Rain of Fire -- 231.5
1,167.77 Total damage (with Ice Mastery)
1,355.77 Total damage (with Fire mastery)
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Controller-- plant/kinetics/ice mastery. Fulcrum shift is at x10, containment is on, and no enhancements nor incarnates are on. This is base damage only.
Strangler--228.8
Roots--124.8
Creepers--238.3
Ice Storm--794.1
Ice Blast--312
Frost Breath--436.8
Total Damage - 2,134.8 --
Controller's pet, not shown above is also benefitting from fulcrum shift, the pet's damg will be even way more damaging than the Dominators pet.
The controller is doing twice, or about twice, as much damage as the Dominator.
Again, both builds are using NO ENHANCEMENTS, NO INCARNATES, NO OTHER TEMP POWERS.
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Controller link --
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...52FE002BFC0E20
Dominator plant/fire/ice mastery Link--
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...4EF20D2A3D15FC
Dominator plant/fire/fire -- link
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...49BE010AE9162D
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
I'm sorry Commando but I see a flaw in your comparison between the two. Incinerate deals a crazy buttload of damage why did you leave it out? The same goes for Fire Breath.
Incinerate with Embrace of Fire: 229 damage unenhanced
Fire Breath with Embrace of Fire: 171 damage unenhanced
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I agree Sio. I have my opinions on what Secondaries would push controllers to the lead over doms. /Storm, /Poison, /Kin, /Cold maybe?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'd go so far as to change that to "in almost every non-outlier case", but I'm sure someone would then argue because there's no clear definition of what an outlier for each AT entails.
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Todd,|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
I'm sorry Commando but I see a flaw in your comparison between the two. Incinerate deals a crazy buttload of damage why did you leave it out? The same goes for Fire Breath.
Incinerate with Embrace of Fire: 229 damage unenhanced Fire Breath with Embrace of Fire: 171 damage unenhanced |
I answered that question before you even asked me. I said earlier that most Dom/fire builds I see are leaving incinerate and fire breath out of the build.
If I add the two additional attacks in--
1756.27 Total damage on a Plant/fire/fire Dom. That is still way short of the controller. You are also not mentioning or recognizing that the Controller's pet is also doing significant amounts of dmg superior to the Dom's pet since Fulcrum Shift is also buffing the pet.
If we include Lore pets it gets unfair, Todd. Lore pets with Fulcrum shift it's a figh of guns vs knives. Also, we are leaving out the usefulness of Kinetics in debuffing the dmg the critters deal.
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
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Originally Posted by Commando
Here is a list of damage using the most frequently selected powers in all of plant/fire/ice Doms. Embrace of fire is in effect. The following numbers are base damage numbers only. No enhancements, no incarnate abilities are selected. This makes the math much easier. At the very bottom I add the data links to 3 builds, plant/fire/ice Dom, plant/kinetics/ice Controller, plant/fire/fire Dom
<snip> Controller-- plant/kinetics/ice mastery. Fulcrum shift is at x10, containment is on, and no enhancements nor incarnates are on. This is base damage only. <snip> |
Talk about skewed results... you damage cap the Controller via Fulcrum Shift and then add in freebie Containment that they don't have to use animation time to set up, and then don't even include the enhancements on the Dominator which would raise their damage by more than just Fiery Embrace, let alone the extra powers that they have available.
I can see why you feel that Controllers are outdamaging Dominators. You skew the math so far in their favor that they're doing more "base damage" than any other AT that exists.
Edit to add: I also noticed that you have Ice Storm but neglected Sleet. Seriously, were you just deliberately trying to make Dominators seem so much weaker? Those numbers are worse than meaningless, they're completely misleading.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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doms can do it all other than be a buff specialist. a well put together dom can tank, lead a group and be the alpha, deal massive damage, take heavy hitters outta the fight or even those annoying sappers or engineers.
check out my sig for an example of doms at work. the tanking earth/earth, to the damaging plant/fire
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You should of seen my face when I looked at the builds! At that point I just threw my hands up in the air.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Talk about skewed results... you damage cap the Controller via Fulcrum Shift and then add in freebie Containment that they don't have to use animation time to set up, and then don't even include the enhancements on the Dominator which would raise their damage by more than just Fiery Embrace, let alone the extra powers that they have available.
I can see why you feel that Controllers are outdamaging Dominators. You skew the math so far in their favor that they're doing more "base damage" than any other AT that exists. Edit to add: I also noticed that you have Ice Storm but neglected Sleet. Seriously, were you just deliberately trying to make Dominators seem so much weaker? Those numbers are worse than meaningless, they're completely misleading. |
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I'm also amused at the fact that when I checked a couple of things Dominator Ice Storm also has Containment damage (it summons the exact same pet as the Controller version). Which wasn't included. Oops?|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
You should of seen my face when I looked at the builds! At that point I just threw my hands up in the air.
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What I was checking was whether or not it did full damage on Containment (it doesn't), which means that the 794.1 should be as follows:
(0.78 lethal + 0.78 cold + 0.78 cold-containment) * 75 ticks, or 175.5 "base" damage with containment; at the damage cap for Controllers (400%) that's 702 damage, not 794.1.
For a Dominator it would be the 175.5 "base" damage * (1 + 0.95 slotting + 0.68 embrace of fire) to get to 461.565; with Sleet's -res you multiply that by 1.3 for a total of 600.0345; that's a lot closer than the 499.8 difference in the numbers provided.
I don't feel like figuring out the damage for Creepers because it's an AoE that generates another AoE and so the actual damage dealt fluctuates wildly, but suffice it to say that the difference in damage there will also be much smaller.
Edit: ignoring Creepers (which will slightly benefit the Controller) I came up to 1705.36 for the Controller at the damage cap with Containment using the powers listed, and 1948.96 for the Dominator using Sleet - and that's without counting the Containment damage in the Dominator's Ice Storm. Strange how ignoring slotting a much higher damage modifier and large resistance debuff works out to skew the numbers.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Wow...I never noticed the containment on Ice Storm with my Dom. Thanks Sio you are way better at math/knowing the mechanics of the game than I am.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'm also amused at the fact that when I checked a couple of things Dominator Ice Storm also has Containment damage (it summons the exact same pet as the Controller version). Which wasn't included. Oops?
What I was checking was whether or not it did full damage on Containment (it doesn't), which means that the 794.1 should be as follows: (0.78 lethal + 0.78 cold + 0.78 cold-containment) * 75 ticks, or 175.5 "base" damage with containment; at the damage cap for Controllers (400%) that's 702 damage, not 794.1. For a Dominator it would be the 175.4 "base" damage * (1 + 0.95 slotting + 0.68 embrace of fire) to get to 461.565; with Sleet's -res you multiply that by 1.3 for a total of 600.0345; that's a lot closer than the 499.8 difference in the numbers provided. I don't feel like figuring out the damage for Creepers because it's an AoE that generates another AoE and so the actual damage dealt fluctuates wildly, but suffice it to say that the difference in damage there will also be much smaller. Edit: ignoring Creepers (which will slightly benefit the Controller) I came up to 1705.36 for the Controller at the damage cap with Containment using the powers listed, and 1948.96 for the Dominator using Sleet - and that's without counting the Containment damage in the Dominator's Ice Storm. Strange how ignoring slotting a much higher damage modifier and large resistance debuff works out to skew the numbers. |
My comment is at 0:26 seconds on this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCvEL41kIQg
Victory
Schattenbolt - Blaster Elec/Elec/Elec
Pierce Steele - Blaster Arch/MM/Munitions
Paragons of Victory
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Well, I figured you got your answer already in the first few posts. After that it was just trying to clear up any potentially generated confusion based on posts containing factually incorrect information presented in a manner that was clearly trying to describe it as factual.
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Originally Posted by schattenbolt
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Worth noting that if you damage cap the Dom as well with the power of team buffs, they unquestionably out-damage the damage-capped, wildly-skewed Controller with whom they are already competing.
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Shush, you! Don't you know that Controllers are the end-all, be-all archetype that all others shall try but fail to emulate their awesomeness?
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Originally Posted by Machariel
Worth noting that if you damage cap the Dom as well with the power of team buffs, they unquestionably out-damage the damage-capped, wildly-skewed Controller with whom they are already competing.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I have a few videos of my Ice/Fire Dom from a little while back. A very specific combo, yes, and with IOs and perma-dom and all that. But I think it may (sort of) show how the playstyle is basically mezz-and-blast. The build used is moderately expensive but not excessive (maybe 400 mil or so). The enemies are pretty easy, although the Malta video starts off with Domination down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDRgwvxBRBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9kQIr6QEaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkoUxOY-1U
As far as the Dom vs Controller damage issue, once Dom's got access to fire and ice APPs, they pulled ahead. Especially ice IMO. Sleet is just stupid good to give in an APP. A /kin controller might be able to keep up, but that is it. Add in the fact that a Dom can get permadom, and so get better controls, and mez protections, and I don't really play controller much anymore.
I have to agree with the others, the damage comparison Commando did was terrible. You can't count a capped fulcrum shift, but not allow for enhancements. You didn't include Fire Breath, one of the highest damage AEs in the game, and for the plant/fire/ice you don't include sleet, which is huge. Basically take all the Dom damage numbers, multiply them by about 2.5 for the plant/fire/ice and 1.95 for plant/fire/fire, and that doesn't include Fire Breath. And of course the fact that he just took power damage and added it up irrespective of what kind of power it was, what the recharge was like etc.
Rather than asking what the best power combinations are, or how to best build one, I'm going to ask all you experienced dominators out there how the dominator is supposed to be played. What mindset should I have, what goals on teams should I try to achieve? How does one balance support and damage without crippling them both?
In terms of mindset, look at the slogan of dom nights "hold them, then touch them"
seriously, doms are hella fun even if other powersets can trump them in DPS.. enjoy!
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world