KB Only When Dead
By
Dechs Kaison,
Posted on: 2011-12-08 23:31 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
This was suggested a long, long time ago, and I remember the answer was that it wan't possible. But a lot of things weren't possible back then, it may be now.
I hope so, it's a great idea.
I doubt it would be possible without code changes. The game engine would have no way of knowing whether the attack would kill the target or not until actually applying the damage, and KB is generally applied at the same time as the damage so by the time it could test for the mob being dead (assuming "enemy is dead" is even a valid flag to base an effect on) the KB would already be applied. It might be possible to fake it with a delayed KB that applied a couple of server ticks after the hit lands to give the damage time to resolve first, but that would look rather odd and still might not be possible since once the enemy is a corpse it may not be targetable by KB. Best case: you'd either have a power that applied its damage before the hit reaction so the KB could play at the same time as the hit FX, or you'd get a "he got hit and then a quarter of a second later he went flying" effect that looked like a bad stunt man messing up his timing. Most likely case: it isn't technically possible at all.
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I disagree that this isn't possible lets use Super Reflexes or Scourge as an example:
Super Reflex passives do: .3% resistance per percentage of hp below 60
Scourge does increased critical chance when target below X and 100% at 15%. (I forget what X is and how the value scales, point is it scales)
What if you set the parameter to mag 100 knockback when target goes below 1% health?
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The problem is that very few enemies ever get to 1% health. It's all too often that minions are one shotted, and LTs will be sent from about 25% health to dead.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
I disagree that this isn't possible lets use Super Reflexes or Scourge as an example:
Super Reflex passives do: .3% resistance per percentage of hp below 60 Scourge does increased critical chance when target below X and 100% at 15%. (I forget what X is and how the value scales, point is it scales) What if you set the parameter to mag 100 knockback when target goes below 1% health? |
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What if the check was set to a .1 second delay after damage was applied? We've seen powers are capable of this. (Think of the Defensive Tier 9's after 240 seconds applies -Recovery 1000%)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The problem is that very few enemies ever get to 1% health. It's all too often that minions are one shotted, and LTs will be sent from about 25% health to dead.
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As far as I'm aware of, all of the delayed effects are set at the activation time of the power - that is, all of the checks are done right away and the effect is set to go off <x> seconds later (which is why Scourge doesn't kick in during the middle of a true DoT, only rain powers that activate frequently - it just checks the target's hp right at the time the power is activated). So you'd still have the same issue - the target would be alive when the check was performed and you'd have to set an arbitrary threshold value that may or may not reflect whether or not the target dies.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
What if the check was set to a .1 second delay after damage was applied? We've seen powers are capable of this. (Think of the Defensive Tier 9's after 240 seconds applies -Recovery 1000%)
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That's not saying that it couldn't ever do this - it's just saying that it most likely would mean some changes to when the power effects are calculated and/or applied.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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If you kill them with Fire their should be textured entirely black. Rad they glow neon green.
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Sorry, just wanted to quote that. It's not heard often enough.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
kill them with Fire
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Warshades have Dark Extraction which works on dead bodies and only dead bodies, so that much should be possible.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
<snip>so by the time it could test for the mob being dead (assuming "enemy is dead" is even a valid flag to base an effect on)<snip>
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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The problem is timing.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Warshades have Dark Extraction which works on dead bodies and only dead bodies, so that much should be possible.
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Example:
- Mob has 30hp left, attack does 50 damage and does KB.
- Checks on power for valid target are done - mob is still at 30hp and is alive, so it applies all line items checking for living mobs.
- Effects are applied. Mob is knocked back while hit points are reduced to -20 (0) while mob is still alive.
- Mob is now dead and at 0 hp, after being knocked back at base knockback. Dark Extraction could work now, but the extra KB can't check since it's already applied (and if applied earlier the mob won't be dead!).
It would have to do something like the following:
- Mob has 30hp left, attack does 50 damage and does KB.
- Checks on power for valid target are done - mob is alive (valid target) and at 30hp.
- Apply damage effects ONLY prior to other effects.
- Another round of checks to see which line items happen to select which secondary KB effect to use.
- Mob is dead after applying damage, so higher KB value is used.
- Mob is dead and has been sent flying. Dark Extraction could be used now.
It's an extra round of checks but it's not impossible. But it's probably an engine change, and those aren't likely to happen quickly.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I'll pre add in the Standard Code Rant applying to my idea before even mentioning it. 
As with mez effects currently, even if you resist the effect it's still there. Drop your protection etc. and you will get mezzed. It might be possible to add in an un-resistable kb/repel effect that only works when hp=0. IE. your alive and the effect won't work. You're dead and your "protection turns off" and you get bounced.
Not saying it would be easy, or something I'd like to see, but that might be a way of making it sorta work. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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they already do that with Nightstar and Seige in BAF. If he dead? No, then countdown res, otherwise die.
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That could work but KB is an instant effect while other mez types have durations (which is why it's so rare to stack it). Summoning a pseudopet could work but could potentially cause some really messed up effects depending on where it places the pet and how that affects the direction to send them flying (it could come flying back at you).
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I'll pre add in the Standard Code Rant applying to my idea before even mentioning it.
As with mez effects currently, even if you resist the effect it's still there. Drop your protection etc. and you will get mezzed. It might be possible to add in an un-resistable kb/repel effect that only works when hp=0. IE. your alive and the effect won't work. You're dead and your "protection turns off" and you get bounced. Not saying it would be easy, or something I'd like to see, but that might be a way of making it sorta work. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I very seriously doubt that it's the same thing that I'm talking about, but a grantable pseudopet could probably simulate the effect with some potential glitches (see my previous post). My assumption on how that works is an autopower that activates at the end of the countdown (checking the status of the other at that time, before any effects are applied).
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Originally Posted by Dz131
they already do that with Nightstar and Seige in BAF. If he dead? No, then countdown res, otherwise die.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Yep. Which is why I included repel in the comment. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
That could work but KB is an instant effect while other mez types have durations (which is why it's so rare to stack it).
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Ok there should already be something that handles mob death in the game and also KB effects. Like if dmg > hp then run die, or if KB mag > prot mag then KB. All you need is to add when die play this big effect instead of normal KB. And you're done. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I very seriously doubt that it's the same thing that I'm talking about, but a grantable pseudopet could probably simulate the effect with some potential glitches (see my previous post). My assumption on how that works is an autopower that activates at the end of the countdown (checking the status of the other at that time, before any effects are applied).
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With Nightstar and Seige, the countdown doesn't trigger at all if the other is dead. So it definitely does a check when each of them dies to trigger the countdown. This is same with basically alot of common missions in the game eg. In AE, you already get when this mob dies, trigger this objective. So this effect of when die, do this, is already in the game.
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It's in the game, but currently "when die, do this" effects are based on the mob type (on death powers like ghoul heals) or situation (ambushes spawning after a defeat). The problem is that these trigger when the mob dies, period... what would be needed is a conditional on death effect that only went off if the mob was killed by an attack with enhanced KB on death. That probably wouldn't be hard to do with a code change, but I don't believe there is currently a way to specify "when killed by power X but not power Y" as a trigger (Oil Slick suggests "killed by damage type X" is a valid trigger, but that doesn't mean "killed by one of these specific powers" is). Having a power with such enhanced death KB generate a pseudopet that used a KB power set to "if target = corpse" a server tick or two after the damage is dealt might work, but only if the engine can currently apply KB effects to corpses (which it may or may not be able to do) and you'd still have the problem of the power doing its normal KB first and the enhanced KB kicking in a fraction of a second later. I'm not sure how good that would look.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
With Nightstar and Seige, the countdown doesn't trigger at all if the other is dead. So it definitely does a check when each of them dies to trigger the countdown. This is same with basically alot of common missions in the game eg. In AE, you already get when this mob dies, trigger this objective. So this effect of when die, do this, is already in the game.
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Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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You'd like to think that, but that's what I'm saying - I can't think of a single case in the game that I'm aware of where some/most of the effects are applied and then conditions are checked for other effects on the same power activation. So no, there almost assuredly is NOT something that handles this already. Thus, engine change; thus, unlikely to happen soon if at all. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
Ok there should already be something that handles mob death in the game and also KB effects. Like if dmg > hp then run die, or if KB mag > prot mag then KB. All you need is to add when die play this big effect instead of normal KB. And you're done.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
With Nightstar and Seige, the countdown doesn't trigger at all if the other is dead. So it definitely does a check when each of them dies to trigger the countdown. This is same with basically alot of common missions in the game eg. In AE, you already get when this mob dies, trigger this objective. So this effect of when die, do this, is already in the game.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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The Oil Slick lights when the target is defeated, regardless of the type of damage that defeated it. It happens to be immune to all types of damage except fire and energy though, so in practice you need one of those two types to do it. It doesn't trigger based on the damage type though, just on defeat. In theory if you had access to unresistable damage you could light it with that.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
(Oil Slick suggests "killed by damage type X" is a valid trigger, but that doesn't mean "killed by one of these specific powers" is)
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No I didn't say that the effect existed, I mean that death it self is triggered by the dmg>hp forumale, which causes the mob to go all rag doll or play their death animation (eg. Carnies) and give you the "you've defeated XXX" message. In this case all you need is to add in between dmg>hp --> Death is something like dmg>hp --> check power it's killed by and apply physics effects --> Death. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
You'd like to think that, but that's what I'm saying - I can't think of a single case in the game that I'm aware of where some/most of the effects are applied and then conditions are checked for other effects on the same power activation. So no, there almost assuredly is NOT something that handles this already. Thus, engine change; thus, unlikely to happen soon if at all.
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It's not much different than if you KO blow them and they fly up in the air and die. They die, but the effect still plays, you're just adding an extra check in the middle.
Of cos this is all speculation, I have no idea how the engine works or how hard coded all this is.
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| That's still an "at activation, check <condition> and apply all effects" case, though. |
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Which is what I said earlier - you'd need to add a check in the middle that currently does not exist.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
It's not much different than if you KO blow them and they fly up in the air and die. They die, but the effect still plays, you're just adding an extra check in the middle.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
That's makes no difference, at worse if you apply all effects, you get your normal KB + your greater KB which would result them being chucked far anyway.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Yeah, yeah, all that other stuff about this and that, blah blah blah, whatevs.
All I thought after readin' this:
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...is that I now want a FINISH HIM! sort of awesome knockback/knockup for *every* baddie I put down, with an optional 'gibbination' for doing it with a Lethal or Smashing hit.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I thought about putting this in the Suggestions section, but I'm unsure of the technical details here so I figured I'd start here first.
I'm just curious about whether it is possible to have a power that causes knockback only when the target dies from the attack. The idea is mainly for visual appeal, specifically with powersets like Super Strength and Titan Weapons. Would the current powers system support a huge knockback contingent upon death? Is it similarly possible for powers like Nova to multiply the KB even higher when the target dies? I'd love to see things go flying huge distances, but mainly dead things. (One possible route would be for any power with knock up or back in it to do something like (base value x 3) + Mag 6 knockback if the target dies from the attack.) |
/And if the game said "FINISH HIM!", well, that would be pure w00tness.
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Could it work similar to rain DoT as knockback over time where the second tic checks if dead?
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Can't Oil Slicks be killed but not lit by other damage types though? Or was that just part of the long-term bugginess of the power? Because I could have sworn I'd seen non-fire / energy attacks destroy them before...
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
The Oil Slick lights when the target is defeated, regardless of the type of damage that defeated it. It happens to be immune to all types of damage except fire and energy though, so in practice you need one of those two types to do it. It doesn't trigger based on the damage type though, just on defeat. In theory if you had access to unresistable damage you could light it with that.
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Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
I thought about putting this in the Suggestions section, but I'm unsure of the technical details here so I figured I'd start here first.
I'm just curious about whether it is possible to have a power that causes knockback only when the target dies from the attack. The idea is mainly for visual appeal, specifically with powersets like Super Strength and Titan Weapons. Would the current powers system support a huge knockback contingent upon death? Is it similarly possible for powers like Nova to multiply the KB even higher when the target dies? I'd love to see things go flying huge distances, but mainly dead things.
(One possible route would be for any power with knock up or back in it to do something like (base value x 3) + Mag 6 knockback if the target dies from the attack.)