Why I wish for a new defensive powerset
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-11-30 10:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Those damage types are rare, but dark armor and electric armor already give very good psi resist, and willpower gives good psi defense. Regen and fire armor can build good toxic resist from heals. There is not any reason to shy away from an armor set that has high resist to those types just because they are rare.|
Originally Posted by Vexen777
In all seriousness, I hope they don't add a Psiconic or Toxic armor, that would be terrible since those two damages' real main point is being not very resisted and not common.
Now if they did an Acid or slime armor that did some protection, maybe a few slows and heck, Damage for those who use physical attacks on the person using the armor! |
As for an armor that does some protection, some slows, and some damage, that exists. Ice armor.
The one thing that I would love to see that doesn't exist in game is a positional defense set with a damage aura. The closest thing is ninjutsu, but caltrops just inst the same.
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Speaking as someone whose primary interest AT has seven primaries, would it kill those of you who care about being limited to merely 216 possible combinations to suck it up?
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Originally Posted by Tenjoy
No other playstyle has such a large imbalance between the number of available primary and secondary powersets. So, I'd really like to get another defensive powerset to go along with all the new melee weapons. (Call it character diversification, if you like.
 )10joy |
I'm not sure what more ground there is to cover for defensive powersets. Surely a new one would have to be highly specific & themed (ala Shield Defence) or using new systems entirely. The present techniques are all pretty much covered:
Regen/Heals
Defence
Resistance
Aura - stuns/slows/fears/debuffs
Most sets use at least a few of the above already.
This thread is the sort of thing that belongs in the suggestions forum along with an actual idea for what they want. Saying things like 'toxic armour' sure sounds good, but hey, doesn't everything sound good when it's 100% imagination and 0% information.
One of the theoretical powersets on the vote we had back in the day (which eventually gave us dual pistols, street justice, willpower, shields, and so on) was Force Field Armor. I could see a set devoted to RES/DEF/+maxHP without any heals or regen that would probably work well. I don't doubt the devs' ability to come up with something new and interesting from that concept as well.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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The thing about that is - it needs a lot more details than just RES/DEF/+maxhp, because that is almost exactly what invulnerability gives.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
One of the theoretical powersets on the vote we had back in the day (which eventually gave us dual pistols, street justice, willpower, shields, and so on) was Force Field Armor. I could see a set devoted to RES/DEF/+maxHP without any heals or regen that would probably work well. I don't doubt the devs' ability to come up with something new and interesting from that concept as well.
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I think any suggestions that come into this thread really need to carefully elaborate what will truly make the set unique. If it sounds mostly like something that's already out there, or that can be accomplished with careful slotting IOs, it probably won't happen.
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
The thing about that is - it needs a lot more details than just RES/DEF/+maxhp, because that is almost exactly what invulnerability gives.
I think any suggestions that come into this thread really need to carefully elaborate what will truly make the set unique. If it sounds mostly like something that's already out there, or that can be accomplished with careful slotting IOs, it probably won't happen. |
To be fair, IMO any power set suggestion that gets that specific is most likely going to be largely ignored anyway. It's not the player's job to balance the set. Just saying "Force Field Armor" at least provides a baseline aesthetic.
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I'm not saying they should balance the set, but I think suggestions need more than "it gives defence and resistance".|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
To be fair, IMO any power set suggestion that gets that specific is most likely going to be largely ignored anyway. It's not the player's job to balance the set. Just saying "Force Field Armor" at least provides a baseline aesthetic.
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Edit:
Perhaps trying to sell the suggestion is a better way to put it. What does 'toxic armour' do? Why is it unique? Can you name some mechanic that differentiates it? Because if you can't describe any of this, I could open a thesaurus, rattle off 100 names that all sound fantastic but ultimately have no substance. Again, when there's no particulars and you just have your imagination to fill in the rest, everything sounds pretty good!
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But you do understand that there's a difference between 18x12 combinations vs., say, 15x15 combinations?|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Speaking as someone whose primary interest AT has seven primaries, would it kill those of you who care about being limited to merely 216 possible combinations to suck it up?
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10joy
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Not for this argument's sake, no. If you pair all the support powers with all the control powers, ranged powers, and pet powers, you end up with just two support powers left. So, if you want one of each, you only need to duplicate two powersets, and they can be pets, control, or ranged.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Also - I would think the OP would be concerned about mastermind primaries vs secondaries, no?
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This doesn't work nearly as well for the melee archetypes. Here you need to duplicate seven defensive powersets if you want to play all available primaries, with more to come, meaning even more duplication.
Certainly it'd be nice to get another mastermind pet powerset, or another control powerset. But the six non-melee archetypes currently are quite balanced in the number of powersets they have available.
10joy
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Originally Posted by Trilby
There is actually a powerset me and my friends came up with I wanna see as a defensive powerset.
The idea is your character powers up runes and wards to reduce numbers of damage, not a %. For example, you can throw up a ward for 200 points of damage. It lasts for 5 seconds. A monster can hit you for up to 200 points of damage and you will take 0 damage and have some left over. However, the set is very end heavy and recharge heavy and only blocks agaisnt specific damage, so you have to know what type of damage you are taking, keep popping blues, etc. And it works out the same over all in the % it blocks and doesn't block psionic, but I think it would be fun to have and play with. |
I don't see this working well. Being so click heavy people won't have a chance to attack. Maybe if you had a basic armor set with one power working like swap ammo. It gives you 3 boosts to strengthen either smash/lethal, ice/fire/, or eng/n eng to way you suggest.
Dirges
There should be a defense set where for each attack you dodge you hit them back for some damage, call it Street........Defence
Temporal Armor a defense set I thought up and think would be fun to have as the secondary.
With 2 click powers, it's not toggle and go. It's also different from all the other options Melee ATs have. Not to mention, it's also setup to work with Stalkers!
I'll even copy/paste it here. 
Great part, the animations are in game already and they'd be great animations!
Temporal Perfection
Auto: Self, +Regeneration, +Recovery, Accelerated
Regen: 15% (Self)
Recovery: 10% (Self)
You are one with the time stream, as such you are able to regenerate and recover energy at a faster rate. You are also in a constant state of Acceleration, allowing any Time Manipulating team members to cast stronger buffs on you without having to Accelerate you themselves.
Temporal Mending
Click: Self Heal, Heal over Time
End Cost: 10.4
Recharge: 60s
Duration: 6s
Heal: 24.99%
Mend wounds to yourself and immediately continue to heal for half the amount over the next 6 seconds.
Bullet Time Vision
Toggle: PBAOE Foe (-Damage, -Speed, -Tohit)
End Cost: 0.52/s
Recharge: 10s
Duration: 1s
Radius: 8ft
ToHit: -9.75% (Tgt)
DamBuff: -12.5% (Tgt)
SpdBuff: -12.5% (Tgt)
You are able to react to those around you as if they are moving slower, allowing you to dodge more easily and take less damage.
Quick Response
Toggle: Self +Res (Hold, Sleep, Disorient, Immobilize, Psionic, -Regen, Slow, Teleport), +Speed, +Recharge
End Cost: 0.21/s
Recharge: 4s
Duration: 0.75s
Res: 15%
ResEffect: 25%
+Recharge: 20%
+Speed: 20%
Your attunement with the Time Stream allows you to avoid mez effects, while keeping your mind constantly shifting, providing a small resistantance to psychic foes.
Temporal Cloak
Toggle: Self Stealth, +Defense (All)
End Cost: 0.26/s
Recharge: 20s
Duration: 0.75s
Defense: 3.75%
By bending time around yourself, you can become partially invisible. While cloaked you can only be seen at very close range. If you attack while cloaked, you will be discovered. Even if discovered, you still maintain a Defense bonus to all attacks. There is no movement penalty, however this ability doesn't stack with Stealth or Invisibility from the Concealment Power Pool.
Future Sight
Toggle: Self, +To-Hit. +Defense (To All Positions), +Perception
End Cost: 0.26/s
Recharge: 10s
Duration: 0.75s
Radius: 25ft
Defense: 8.75%
ToHit: 6%
You're able to get brief glimpses of the future and what is to come. This allows you to increase your chance to dodge enemy hits, while increasing the chance to land your own.
Slowed Response
Click: PBAOE, Foe -Defense, -Resistance
End Cost: 15.6
Recharge: 90s
Accuracy: 75%
Duration: 30s
Radius: 10ft
Defense: -7.5% (Tgt)
Res: -9.75% (Tgt)
You can manipulate your own Temporal Energies to cause those around you to become slowed and sluggish. This causes them to have decreased defense and damage resistance.
Rewind Time
Click: Rez, Special
Recharge: 300s
Duration: 60s
Heal: 50%
End: 50%
Regen: +200% (Self)
Recovery: +75% (Self)
Pecharge: +25% (Self)
Speed: +25% (Self)
Defense: +25% (Self)
When defeated you are able to rewind time, while keeping yourself more attuned with the time stream, allowing for heightened Regeneration, Recovery, Speed and Defense.
Chrono Phase
Toggle: Self Intangible, +Recharge, Heal, +End, Heal over Time
Initial End Cost: 20.8
End Cost While Toggled: .65/s
Recharge: 360s
Duration of Added Effects: 30s for Heal Over Time, 90s for +Recharge
Duration for Toggled Phase Shift: 30s
Recharge: +50% (Self)
End: +15% (Self)
Heal: 35% (Self)
You can allow yourself to slip through the time stream seamlessly, even managing to remain intangible for a limited time if so desired. The Heal over Time is equal to the initial heal, spread out over 30 seconds.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Now consider how your stance looks to the guy who has 7x7 combinations. |
Originally Posted by Tenjoy
But you do understand that there's a difference between 18x12 combinations vs., say, 15x15 combinations?
10joy |
Bonus: You have 18x12x3 - three whole different archetypes to play the combinations with. 49 vs 648. And you think that your problem is you don't have enough variety. Poor dear.
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Sadly, not going to happen. It requires a level of call-response from the server that the load becomes very quickly unmanageable.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
There should be a defense set where for each attack you dodge you hit them back for some damage, call it Street........Defence
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Moar armors !!!!!
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
4 possibilities for new armor sets:
Power Shield: Either as a separate powerset with its own abilities or simply as /Shield rebranded so that two-handed weapons could be used with it (essentially, bubble armor)
Sonic: Probably would be resistance based, have a larger than normal amount of utility powers, and have a side affect of -res.
Radiation: I'm not sure what they'd do with it, probably another utility set with a combination of defense and resists with maybe some -def.
Psychic: High psionic protection, high recharge debuff protection. Side affects of mezzing and -recharge. Could do some interesting things, probably would have drain psyche added to it or psychic melee.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Plant Manipulation? |
Originally Posted by CBeet
I'd rather see more Blaster manipulation sets first. A Martial Arts/Ninjitsu based set is at the top of my list for a more natural human character, and Stone, Radiation, Power Armour-esque tech and plants in no particular order.
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Or maybe Steel/Titanium Armor for melee characters. Or Radiation armor.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Would Titanium Armor (Armor Armor?) put on actual titanium plates over your costume (aka the most hated feature of Ice Armor)? Also, what would distinguish it conceptually/mechanically from wearing an armored costume and using Invulnerability?
I'm imagining Radiation Armor as being partly based on debuffs, which would be distinctive among armor sets, but the purple patch and AV debuff resistance would possibly make it difficult to balance.
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
I'm not saying they should balance the set, but I think suggestions need more than "it gives defence and resistance".
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Well, I Personally think there's a vast unexplored ground that could be fit into any of these suggestions: Some weirder ones first:
A control happy set with some of the more typical mechanics but more clicky control effects (think a short duration PA) to help survive. Very short duration, but it'll help take the alpha on an otherwise softer set.
An adaptive resistance power that increases in magnitude every time an attack of that type lands, and which degrades over time. A bit soft on alphas (need another tool for those), but generally great against environments with a single damage type, and solidly good against those with mostly 2-4. Weaker than average against foes that really spread the damage out.
A defence set that has a few solid targeted AoE debuff effects to help it survive
A defence set with a taunt aura that slowly stacked a -res debuff on foes... just a couple percent every few seconds, but maxing out at 15- 20% (or whatever testing says is fair) on a hard target that lives long enough
A reactive set with "when attacked" proc mechanics.
A set with a + healing recieved power that would magnify... well, any and all incoming heals.
A set that can steal buffs off of foes.
A set with a targeted taunt toggle.
A set with mutually exclusive +damage and +res/def toggles.
Any set that can copy a foes power for a short time
A solid confuse power
More normal? Working with what's already out there one could make for some different things...
A defence/resist set with no +HP but better resistance and defence debuff resistance than invul would be cool enough. Think electric levels of resistance, similar defence and maybe 70% defence resists.
How about a typed defence set that can cap defence resistance?
How about a set that has a lightform type power? (might need self penalties in the context of melee)
How about a "stone light" set with a restrictive tier 9 that isn't as good as granite, but isn't as penalized or restrictive either?
How about a low mag hold aura or a resistance version of invincibility or a set with power boost or a set with a low mag resistance team buff (like grant cover but different) or a set like resistance but with short duration +res clickies or...
New styles and mixes could be almost unlimited. There's a valid question as to how much fun some of them might be... they could be the worst... But I have to think there are quite a lot of potential gems too.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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@Titanium armor: Probably wouldn't be any worse than granite|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Would Titanium Armor (Armor Armor?) put on actual titanium plates over your costume (aka the most hated feature of Ice Armor)? Also, what would distinguish it conceptually/mechanically from wearing an armored costume and using Invulnerability?
I'm imagining Radiation Armor as being partly based on debuffs, which would be distinctive among armor sets, but the purple patch and AV debuff resistance would possibly make it difficult to balance. |
@Rad: I'd imagine it to be sort of like dark armor where it's sort of based around debuffs than def/res. I'm a bit wicked stupid with certain defense sets though, so I could be wrong.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
I really like the radiation idea. An amazing tier 9 would be something like meltdown.
Meltdown:
You start to leak radiaton that severely damages/debuffs foes, but doing this makes your health constantly decrease until you self destruct.
Radius: 15
Damage: triple blazing aura
Def. Debuff: -20%
Res. Debuff: -20%
To Hit Debuff: -20%
Dam. Debuff: -20%
Rech. Debuff: -20%
heal debuff: -20%
-1000000% heal/regen to self
-health over time
Explode at 10% health
Lasts 90s.
And another cool power would be absorb radiation. In which when attacked with nrg, neg, or fire, it partially turns into a +heal/+damage. The stronger the attack, the stronger the effect (to a limit). All these numbers I just pulled from you know where so yeah.
A few random ideas for signature armor powers:
- A reverse or "siphon" toggle. The caster has buffed resistance or defense as long as the enemy target remains alive (ie as opposed to the target being debuffed).
- A set with a teleport/leap/charge that boosts your defense each time you port. (Possibly in a "Speed" set.)
- Version 2 of above: A power based on Jolting Chain, but with a caster-teleport at each hop. Caster gains defense for each enemy that is bowled over.
- A "teleport all enemies within a certain radius on top of me" power. (IE reverse shield charge, or PBAoE Wormhole).
- A set with low mag AoE mezz protection for teammates.
- A set that focuses mostly on -Damage instead of +Resistance.
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I am sorry if I created the impression that I don't care for the other archetypes. That's not true. Of course the developers should also add new powersets for the other archetypes.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Now consider how your stance looks to the guy who has 7x7 combinations.
Bonus: You have 18x12x3 - three whole different archetypes to play the combinations with. 49 vs 648. And you think that your problem is you don't have enough variety. Poor dear. |
However, while there seems to be a big difference between the available combinations for certain powersets, these numbers really don't tell the full story. A large amount of combinations means it's less likely that you run into another player who uses the same powerset combination. But this isn't about overall diversity. It's a player's personal charas' diversity that I'm concerned with. You are not actually playing all these 49 combinations yourself, are you?
In your example, with 7x7 powersets, you can build seven charas and have all the sets. (You choose your seven combinations from a larger pool of 49, but you actually roll only seven of them.) For the melee archetypes, you can build just twelve unique charas. Granted, you have a much larger pool to choose from, but whatever you choose, you only get five more. After that, you need to repeat defensive powersets. (Several times, by now.)
Take the extreme case: Imagine having 500 primary powersets, but only one single secondary. Wow, 500 combinations! That number doesn't really mean anything, though. Very few players would get to play all the powersets, because at some point they'd be sick and tired of the one secondary powerset they are required to use each time. (Which would be a shame, because some of the primaries were really great...)
It's okay to repeat a powerset once or twice. It's just that we are getting so many new melee powersets by now that the gap between primaries and secondaries widens more and more.
Sure, it would be nice to get an eighth chara for your archetype. (I probably would play that one, too.) However, if the developers continue adding more and more melee powersets, I really hope that they'll also create a few defensive powersets on the way. Otherwise some players might stop buying the new melee powersets - just because they don't want to use the same old armors again.
10joy
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This is kinda true. I've met more than a few players who won't (and havent) reused any powersets.|
Originally Posted by Tenjoy
I am sorry if I created the impression that I don't care for the other archetypes. That's not true. Of course the developers should also add new powersets for the other archetypes.
However, while there seems to be a big difference between the available combinations for certain powersets, these numbers really don't tell the full story. A large amount of combinations means it's less likely that you run into another player who uses the same powerset combination. But this isn't about overall diversity. It's a player's personal charas' diversity that I'm concerned with. You are not actually playing all these 49 combinations yourself, are you? In your example, with 7x7 powersets, you can build seven charas and have all the sets. (You choose your seven combinations from a larger pool of 49, but you actually roll only seven of them.) For the melee archetypes, you can build just twelve unique charas. Granted, you have a much larger pool to choose from, but whatever you choose, you only get five more. After that, you need to repeat defensive powersets. (Several times, by now.) Take the extreme case: Imagine having 500 primary powersets, but only one single secondary. Wow, 500 combinations! That number doesn't really mean anything, though. Very few players would get to play all the powersets, because at some point they'd be sick and tired of the one secondary powerset they are required to use each time. (Which would be a shame, because some of the primaries were really great...) It's okay to repeat a powerset once or twice. It's just that we are getting so many new melee powersets by now that the gap between primaries and secondaries widens more and more. Sure, it would be nice to get an eighth chara for your archetype. (I probably would play that one, too.) However, if the developers continue adding more and more melee powersets, I really hope that they'll also create a few defensive powersets on the way. Otherwise some players might stop buying the new melee powersets - just because they don't want to use the same old armors again. 10joy |
I'm guessing they're a rare player myself though.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
De-fence set. Allows you to remove any barricades from boulders to child barriers!
In all seriousness, I hope they don't add a Psiconic or Toxic armor, that would be terrible since those two damages' real main point is being not very resisted and not common.
Now if they did an Acid or slime armor that did some protection, maybe a few slows and heck, Damage for those who use physical attacks on the person using the armor!