#1 Debuffer? #1 Buffer?
By
Aumakua,
Posted on: 2011-11-23 24:06 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I am pretty sure Infrigidate's -damage is only on Fire damage, not all Types?
|
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
-DMG = -100% (Infrigidate = -37.5%, Benumb = -62.5%) |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
If I recall correctly Power Build Up doesnt effect Cold's shields.
But to go with Buff and Debuff...
Cold Domination and Time Manipulation are my personal choices.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
You are correct. I misread MIDs, my mistake. Benumb is on all types though.. still no slouch on -DMG.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am pretty sure Infrigidate's -damage is only on Fire damage, not all Types?
|
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Quote:
I questioned that too, what PBU actually affected. In MIDs it takes it from 15% to 29.75%, unslotted. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
If I recall correctly Power Build Up doesnt effect Cold's shields.
But to go with Buff and Debuff... Cold Domination and Time Manipulation are my personal choices. |
Also, text from Paragon wiki:
Powerboost
Powerboost is labeled as a +Special power, however there is no Special Attribute. What Powerboost does is provide a positive Attribute Modifier to a large list of Attributes. These attributes are: Stun Strength, Sleep Strength, Confuse Strength, Terrorize Strength, Immobilize Strength, Held Strength, RunSpeed Strength, FlySpeed Strength, Heal Strength (A positive Hit Point Attribute Modifier), ToHit Strength, Endurance Strength, Defense Strength (All).
Is powerboost the same as Power Build Up?
EDIT: Just curious, do you play them on Defenders or Corruptors?
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Quote:
PBU and Power Boost are almost the same except one gives a +DMG boost if I recall. And that +Special doesnt effect anything that gives +Resists.|
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
I questioned that too, what PBU actually affected. In MIDs it takes it from 15% to 29.75%, unslotted.
Also, text from Paragon wiki: Powerboost Powerboost is labeled as a +Special power, however there is no Special Attribute. What Powerboost does is provide a positive Attribute Modifier to a large list of Attributes. These attributes are: Stun Strength, Sleep Strength, Confuse Strength, Terrorize Strength, Immobilize Strength, Held Strength, RunSpeed Strength, FlySpeed Strength, Heal Strength (A positive Hit Point Attribute Modifier), ToHit Strength, Endurance Strength, Defense Strength (All). Is powerboost the same as Power Build Up? EDIT: Just curious, do you play them on Defenders or Corruptors? MT |
I have experience with Cold Dom at 50 on a Defender and Time Manip at 50 with a Corr. I also have non level 50's of each opposite AT.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Mid's can be wrong, and is in this case. I know that it shows Power Buildup effecting the +defense from Disperson Bubble, but it actually doesn't in game. Nor does it effect Cold's shields in game, for the reason that BrandX gave. It does however boost a Force Fielder's bubbles, with the exception of Dispersion Bubble.
|
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
I questioned that too, what PBU actually affected. In MIDs it takes it from 15% to 29.75%, unslotted.
Also, text from Paragon wiki: Powerboost Powerboost is labeled as a +Special power, however there is no Special Attribute. What Powerboost does is provide a positive Attribute Modifier to a large list of Attributes. These attributes are: Stun Strength, Sleep Strength, Confuse Strength, Terrorize Strength, Immobilize Strength, Held Strength, RunSpeed Strength, FlySpeed Strength, Heal Strength (A positive Hit Point Attribute Modifier), ToHit Strength, Endurance Strength, Defense Strength (All). Is powerboost the same as Power Build Up? EDIT: Just curious, do you play them on Defenders or Corruptors? MT |
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
I am gonna chime in for Time Manipulation. I have a Beam/Time corruptor and he devastates end game. You get the following:
--Temporal Selection--Ally damage boost/recharge bonus/+regen
--Distortion Field--Enemy recharge slow
--Time stop--hold that has -regen/-heal and becomes boss level with Time Crawl(minor -regen)
--Farsight--Group +defense, tohit, perception
--Slowed Response--Enemy -20%res/Def
--Temporal Mending--decent heal with slow resists in it
--Time's Juncture--Enemy -tohit/-20% damage
--And my new #1 Underdog, Chrono Shift--+50% recharge for 1:30, Bigger heal(not THAT great though, +endurance(unslottable), +recovery(slottable) Long, Long recharge 6 Mins
---On paper, to me, this power is crap. It would indeed turn the tide of a battle momentarily, but I don't like it that way. Now, you throw 105% global recharge/70& hasten at it and have the 50% stack with that and run around at 215% recharge all the time...WAY worth it. Oh, and not to mention with Temporal, you can basically give 4 allies Hasten-level recharge all the time.
Time is a set that sounds like it should be great, looks like it should suck, and turns out to be unstoppable. I can Alpha +2x8(note:not tank) simply by casting the distortion field and healing right after. With heal-over-time, I soak up the attacks and heal and I am already shooting back by the time they hit me. I also took powerboost and weave though to have 26ish% defense to all, all the time. But, that was it. I threw recharge at it and took/slotted normal defense powers. No special defense sets, no purples. And I only built the recharge so that Overcharge from would be up more. I am sure if you paired it with Sonic, it definitely could not do worse.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Live_Wyre
I am gonna chime in for Time Manipulation. I have a Beam/Time corruptor and he devastates end game. You get the following:
--Temporal Selection--Ally damage boost/recharge bonus/+regen --Distortion Field--Enemy recharge slow --Time stop--hold that has -regen/-heal and becomes boss level with Time Crawl(minor -regen) --Farsight--Group +defense, tohit, perception --Slowed Response--Enemy -20%res/Def --Temporal Mending--decent heal with slow resists in it --Time's Juncture--Enemy -tohit/-20% damage --And my new #1 Underdog, Chrono Shift--+50% recharge for 1:30, Bigger heal(not THAT great though, +endurance(unslottable), +recovery(slottable) Long, Long recharge 6 Mins ---On paper, to me, this power is crap. It would indeed turn the tide of a battle momentarily, but I don't like it that way. Now, you throw 105% global recharge/70& hasten at it and have the 50% stack with that and run around at 215% recharge all the time...WAY worth it. Oh, and not to mention with Temporal, you can basically give 4 allies Hasten-level recharge all the time. Time is a set that sounds like it should be great, looks like it should suck, and turns out to be unstoppable. I can Alpha +2x8(note:not tank) simply by casting the distortion field and healing right after. With heal-over-time, I soak up the attacks and heal and I am already shooting back by the time they hit me. I also took powerboost and weave though to have 26ish% defense to all, all the time. But, that was it. I threw recharge at it and took/slotted normal defense powers. No special defense sets, no purples. And I only built the recharge so that Overcharge from would be up more. I am sure if you paired it with Sonic, it definitely could not do worse. |
Time's lack of good -Regen is what makes it not remotely the best Debuffer in the game. -Regen can be equalized to +DMG, thusly you can imagine hitting something with Poison Trap's -1000% Regen and, well, yeah. Time Manipulation has, what? -150% regen? Worthless value after resistances.
The rest of Time Manipulation's kit is largely resisted by AV's. It's powerful +DEF if you cheese with Power Boost is nice, of course. But otherwise, yeah. I'd say Time Manipulation is a powerful buffing set (Temporal Selection, Chrono Shift, which there's NOTHING Underdog about. It's a powerful buff... but pales in comparison to Accelerate Metabolism), but it's debuffs are lacking, primarily due to reduced values and no -Regen worth mentioning.
To that end? Cold Domination is largely going to be the best mixture of Buffing and Debuffing, along with Dark Miasma (Shadow Fall hits the two best resistances in the game, one being extremely hard to raise aka Psionic), and of course lolRadiation. These three all have substantial -Regen.
If you ignore the fact it doesn't buff too much aside from an AoE Defense Shield, Traps has some of the most powerful debuffs in the game (Hi Poison Trap), with some of the best values in the game. And even so, Force Field Generator is one of the best SELF BUFFS in the game, too. Which many sets don't offer.
Cold Domination, Dark Miasma, Radiation Emission, and Traps will beat out Time Manipulation due to one sharing trait; MASSIVE -Regen.
Oh, and Kinetics is still amazing good. Even if it lacks high -Regen, it's +DMG steroid makes up for it in spades. It's definitely one of the best BUFFING sets, but it lacks debuffs so derp derp.
I thought kinetics heal actually had -regen in it.
And yes, by numbers time should suck. That's why I said nearly that exact statement. And I was the sole debuffer on a 5 man(blaster, blaster, scrapper, lvl 6 MM, Me) AV team against +2 Infernal(+1 Alpha slotted me). It was longer than Radiation, but it was no slouch. I like Cold, and the others, and with "best" in mind, I will agree Time lacks the numbers for -regen.
Quote:
Don't forget Kin's Speed Boost, which is equal to Chrono Shift's +RECH. Also, Increase Density gives Indomitable Will level Stun and Hold level protection, at the base slot (!) to your party. And of course the Trans pair isn't exactly a "buff" but they are still ridiculously good.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Oh, and Kinetics is still amazing good. Even if it lacks high -Regen, it's +DMG steroid makes up for it in spades. It's definitely one of the best BUFFING sets, but it lacks debuffs so derp derp.
|
Kin's -regen and -dmg is laughable, but the other stuff surely makes it a great BUFF set.
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Quote:
It does, Transfusion has -50%. Ain't it cute? |
Originally Posted by Live_Wyre
I thougth kinetics heal actually had -regen in it.
|
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Yes, Time Manip could still use a buff to the -Regen imo, but I still consider it a great set regardless.
Better with a set that doesn't require redraw as well. :/
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
No, it doesn't apply the mez protection when AoE'd. Only the Resistances. You need to reapply it to each person to get the Mez Protection going.
|
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
Don't forget Kin's Speed Boost, which is equal to Chrono Shift's +RECH. Also, Increase Density gives Indomitable Will level Stun and Hold level protection, at the base slot (!) to your party. And of course the Trans pair isn't exactly a "buff" but they are still ridiculously good.
Kin's -regen and -dmg is laughable, but the other stuff surely makes it a great BUFF set. MT |
Quote:
Did not know that, thanks for the info. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
No, it doesn't apply the mez protection when AoE'd. Only the Resistances. You need to reapply it to each person to get the Mez Protection going.
|
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
I am surprised nobody mentioned Dark Miasma. It is my favorite Debuff set. Twilight recharges so fast and the heal has a nice -regen on target. It has great debufs besides the -regen, it has -dmg, -to hit, -resist, -spd, etc...
1. Twilight Grasp-Ranged, Foe -Regen, -DMG, -To-Hit, Team Heal
2. Tar Patch- Ranged (Location AoE), Foe -SPD, -Jump, -Fly, -Res(All)
3. Darkest Night- Toggle: Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -DMG, -To-Hit
4. Howling Twilight- Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Negative), Foe Disorient, -Regen, -Recharge, -SPD, Ally Rez
5. Shadow Fall- Toggle: PBAoE, Team Stealth, +DEF(All), +Res(Energy, Negative, Psionics, Fear)
6. Fearsome Stare- Ranged (Cone), Foe Fear, -To-Hit
7. Petrifying Gaze- Ranged, Foe Hold
8. Black Hole- Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Intangible
9. Dark Servant- Summon Dark Servant: Ranged, Debuff, Special
lvl 50 - Elec/WP/Mu Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - Dark/EA/Soul Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - EM/Nin/Soul Mastery Stalker
New Toons
lvl 21 - StJ/WP Stalker
I don't know about best, but I will second Dark Miasma as my favorite buff/debuff set. I have had Fluffy (my dark servant) lock down mobs by himself, including Cimerorans
Quote:
Actually Kin's -damage is extremely powerful, it can stack more -dmg than any other set in the game, and it can make a huge difference when going for things like master badges as AV's will have a much more difficult time dealing significant damage to you, as well as every spawn will eat a -20/25% dmg debuff from fulcrum shift.|
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
Don't forget Kin's Speed Boost, which is equal to Chrono Shift's +RECH. Also, Increase Density gives Indomitable Will level Stun and Hold level protection, at the base slot (!) to your party. And of course the Trans pair isn't exactly a "buff" but they are still ridiculously good.
Kin's -regen and -dmg is laughable, but the other stuff surely makes it a great BUFF set. MT |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
It does, Transfusion has -50%. Ain't it cute?
MT |
Quote:
I didn't mention it purely because it's never seemed to buffy to me, more debuffy.
|
Originally Posted by Aumakua
I am surprised nobody mentioned Dark Miasma. It is my favorite Debuff set. Twilight recharges so fast and the heal has a nice -regen on target. It has great debufs besides the -regen, it has -dmg, -to hit, -resist, -spd, etc...
1. Twilight Grasp-Ranged, Foe -Regen, -DMG, -To-Hit, Team Heal 2. Tar Patch- Ranged (Location AoE), Foe -SPD, -Jump, -Fly, -Res(All) 3. Darkest Night- Toggle: Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -DMG, -To-Hit 4. Howling Twilight- Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Negative), Foe Disorient, -Regen, -Recharge, -SPD, Ally Rez 5. Shadow Fall- Toggle: PBAoE, Team Stealth, +DEF(All), +Res(Energy, Negative, Psionics, Fear) 6. Fearsome Stare- Ranged (Cone), Foe Fear, -To-Hit 7. Petrifying Gaze- Ranged, Foe Hold 8. Black Hole- Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Intangible 9. Dark Servant- Summon Dark Servant: Ranged, Debuff, Special |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'd say Kin/Sonic Defender is the best in "larger" groups.
lets say 10? people getting capped damage and SB.. seems like a Kin would out shine any cold or rad.
The larger the group, the more the Kin overtakes any other buff/debuffer.
(seem's logical?)
Kin seem's best for BAF, Lambda, and raids.
Cold's and Rad's seem better suited for smaller teams (4~7man?)
also sheilds become less useful in larger groups cause everyone is capped to def and resist with incarnates, leadership, inspiration's, etc.
idk where Time Manip fits into all this..
I'd definetly say Defender AT and sonic secondary.
perma jump is ---> /up 1
Don't forget a Beam Rifle/Poison corruptor:
Envenom + Weaken + Venomous Gas + Disintegration + Piercing Beam + Assault + Scourge + Reactive Radial + procs
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Quote:
True, although it depends on targets. I meant to say -res instead of -dmg. In the CoP I mentioned, we had nearly all melee and I believe I was the only buff/debuff at the time (I was Fire/Kin controller, and there was a corr too, not sure what it was), and AVs health definitely was not moving (we went a few rounds of mobs/AVs), so in that situation where we were getting maybe 4-5 targets for ~100+% damage, it just wasn't enough to overcome the regen of the AV. We definitely needed some sort of -regen or -res. Not saying Kin is bad by any means, but I think you still need to think of it as primarily a buff set and not particularly a debuff one (even though it does debuff and do -dmg as you state).|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Actually Kin's -damage is extremely powerful, it can stack more -dmg than any other set in the game, and it can make a huge difference when going for things like master badges as AV's will have a much more difficult time dealing significant damage to you, as well as every spawn will eat a -20/25% dmg debuff from fulcrum shift.
Kin doesn't really need strong -regen when it has so much +damage. Time's lack of strong -regen hits the set's offensive performance much harder because it has significantly less damage modifiers like Kin or Cold does, the longer it takes to kill a hard target the more important -regen becomes. The higher your groups raw dps is, the less -regen is needed. |
As for the -regen piece, when an earlier posted said "kin has regen" .. I wouldn't really call -50% as "having -regen" since the other sets in question (traps and cold) hit -500% easily.
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Personally, Cold Domination is #1 on both fronts if you're looking for a single Power Set. Rockin' Buffs, Rockin' Debuffs. Win.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Quote:
Of course you weren't denting the hp of the CoP AV (especially if it was the stormy, because of hurricane which would have made many of your melee significantly less effective) and even if you had a Cold instead of a Kin it really wouldn't have made a difference. The CoP AV regens 597.58 hp/sec. A single cold would have only reduced that regeneration by about 1/6th of the total. You needed alot more buffers/debuffers in general on your run, not just a different source of buff/debuff... and alot less melee. Whether that was a kin or a cold or a rad or some weird mutant AT that had both kin as a primary set and cold as a secondary wouldn't have made a difference. It takes 6 sources of -500% regen to floor his regen, and it's not really possible to have his regen floored permanently all the time too because of his Immunity forcefield, which means you need a certain threshold of damage as well. |
Originally Posted by Master_Templar
True, although it depends on targets. I meant to say -res instead of -dmg. In the CoP I mentioned, we had nearly all melee and I believe I was the only buff/debuff at the time (I was Fire/Kin controller, and there was a corr too, not sure what it was), and AVs health definitely was not moving (we went a few rounds of mobs/AVs), so in that situation where we were getting maybe 4-5 targets for ~100+% damage, it just wasn't enough to overcome the regen of the AV. We definitely needed some sort of -regen or -res. Not saying Kin is bad by any means, but I think you still need to think of it as primarily a buff set and not particularly a debuff one (even though it does debuff and do -dmg as you state).
As for the -regen piece, when an earlier posted said "kin has regen" .. I wouldn't really call -50% as "having -regen" since the other sets in question (traps and cold) hit -500% easily. MT |
source: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...75&postcount=1
Just have the Envenomed Dagger Temporary Power ready to use. It gives -250% regen for 10 seconds. Really hard to go wrong there. (just make sure to pop a yellow if you don't have any +acc or +tohit bonuses or buffs on you)
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
Looking for opinions on what you consider the "best debuffer" and the "best buffer" (1 of each). Now I realize these come in a variety of flavors:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Buffs_and_Debuffs
However, I'm looking for endgame performance. I don't care how long it takes to mature (e.g. Defender vs Controller sets). I don't care about exemping (anything below 50 is pretty easy IMO). I also am seeing as more incarnates cometh, normal spawns are vaporized pretty easily given any decent PUG. I'm more concerned about taking down tough(er) spawns and AVs. Example: I was in a CoP recently and the AVs health wasn't moving..hey, we had umpteen scrappers and brute but no legit debuffs.. that made me a sad panda. So, given that it seems that the following are most valuable in terms of debuffs:
Debuffs: -res, -regen, and to a little lesser extent -dmg
The way the AV resists work, they seem to resist pretty much anything except these qualities.
The best thing on paper I can come up with is Cold/Sonic defender
-RES = -120% (sleet = -30%, HL = -30%, and assume 3 attacks from sonic will be stacked at any given time, is this unreasonable to assume? Where my /Sonics at to verify?)
-REGEN = -500% (equivalent to Lingering Radiation on controller secondary)
-DMG = -100% (Infrigidate = -37.5%, Benumb = -62.5%)
Also, if you take /Power APP, power boosted shields give +30% DEF, to all but psi.. and that is unslotted! So, obviously Cold/ is pretty good at buffing too, not to mention Heat Loss.
Now for a few questions:
-What rivals this? I feel Traps is a legit contender (more -regen, less -res and -dmg), perhaps Rad (much more -regen, much less -res and -dmg). I think /Sonic rules the secondary simply for -RES though.. perhaps the "best debuffer" is not a Defender at all.. ?
-I never play pure "buff" sets like Emp or FF.. anyone have any recommednations? Perhaps Time or Thermal? I guess a better question would be, what do people consider the most important buffs?
Best,
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."