Player summit: Anyone going?

Buffs and debuffs do have limits. I'm not sure what you would compare them to in the game that has more limits. There are "does not stack from same caster" limits, "does not stack at all" limits, and of course floors and caps for everything. I think increasing the stalker and blaster damage caps would be a nice idea though. Tanker resist I don't see changing though.

Horse hockey.

To illustrate: I was tanking a UG today. On our first run, we cruised easily up to the lichen WW, and pancaked against it.

Huh.

Re-run it.

This time, we dropped the lichen WW so fast we could have gotten the 8 minute badge TWICE.

The difference?

Two people dropped off melee toons (brute and stalker, as I recall) and came back with debuffers.

City of Debuff is a fact. You can whistle past that graveyard all you like.

Somebody told me in the game about this. I wonder what kind of changes are coming? Is it a buff? A revamp of some sort?

I PM'd Synapse about the terrible ranged_stun and melee_stun modifiers for Corruptors (they're the lowest in the game, below the tie-for-second-to-last that Blasters sit at) when looking at why Weaken's numbers seemed off for them, and was told that they do seem really low. They've remained untouched. Keep in mind that YMMV with PMs.

Yep!

Blasters, yes, there's not much reason that a Brute at their damage cap should do more than a Blaster at their cap with the same attack; Scrappers already do more than Brutes at their cap due to their criticals, so why increase them even further? Just to put them that much farther ahead of Stalkers again?

If I were going to be my usual, cynical self, I'd comment that they'll get a revamp in the manner of i13 PvP - driving all Stalker players into doing something else by making it intolerable for the people who like the AT and want small tweaks with huge sweeping changes that wreck the feel and force an enormous paradigm shift for something that's overall less fun, and thus reducing the already-low population to a negligible amount.

That said, I'm hoping that they looked at the Stalker buff thread that I started during GR beta for ideas.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I remember back when Castle pushed for Dominator big change. There were few that were against the idea of Domination not giving damage buff because some of them could stack domination for a while. Some feel the "high and low" feeling was lost but in general, Dominator has a good improvement. I see way more people using them at lvl 50 than before. I guess you can call it a "positive" change to the Domination population (even though some old hardcore fans were unhappy about it).


Now, with regards to Stalker, I think we've heard and seen enough complaints that any new change will be welcome. I am not opposed to new ideas if they are sound. I mean what can REALLY happen? Stalker is already the squishiest of all 4 melee ATs. Stalker already ranks 3rd for damage. Stalker is already not fighting like a good assassin with that god awful long Assassin animation with interruption. What could go really bad?

I am optimistic at the moment but I may not be testing by the time issue 22 beta starts because I'll be playing either Diablo3 or GW2. hehe

Er....

...no.

(Goes back and re-reads what he said.) (Yep, it still says what I thought it did.)

If Stalkers get their AT mod raised to 1.2, AND have their damage cap raised by 100 percent, they are way, WAY ahead of scrappers/brutes for damage. Check the numbers, they's fun!

And waaaay ahead is right where they should be. If stalkers have to wear cute little ballerina slippers and dance a pretty little dance to max their performance in melee, it should be WORTH IT.

Also, for the record, 'scrappers do more damage than brutes due to criticals' is a huge misconception. Even after the 'fury nerf' (lol) brutes do just as much damage and are still WAY more durable.

Inherent Assassin's Strike wouldn't be a bad change, but that opens the Pandora's Box of inherent Hide (which is more central to the AT) and giving back the secondary power as well. While not undesired, it's a lot of work for the powers team and what do you add to Ninjitsu?

As for the comment on nerfing Brute damage... they did. And I thought that in their announcement they said that they nerfed it more than they did, but I was wrong and it was lowered to +675%, not 675% total (+575%). Even that amount would have Brutes doing more than Blasters with melee attacks, but Stalkers at their cap would outdo them at a 10% critical rate at +361% damage and above, and Blasters using ranged attacks or Scrappers would do far-and-away more damage even without taking criticals into account for the Scrapper.

But the reason I'd advocate adding to the damage cap for Blasters instead of nerfing Brutes again in this case is because of Scrappers, which would need a huge nerf to be in-line with Blasters as far as damage-to-survivability. There's also the point that Judgement means that every AT has access to a high damage AoE in the endgame, so Blasters are in the same boat as Stalkers with adding nothing special.

To look at a couple of proposals and how they affects thing, the damage cap increases are in yellow and adjusting the Stalker AT modifier to match Scrapper damage is in green - assuming you're using an identical so that the damage is only affected by buffs and AT-specific means:
6 * 1 * 1.31 = 7.86 (Stalker, at proposed cap and MAX 31% critical rate)
5 * 1.125 * 1.31 = 7.36875 (Stalker, at current cap with Scrapper damage modifier and MAX 31% critical rate)
6 * 1.125 = 6.75 (Blaster, ranged attack, at proposed cap)
6 * 1 * 1.1 = 6.6 (Stalker, at proposed cap and 10% critical rate)
5 * 1 * 1.31 = 6.55 (Stalker, at current cap and MAX 31% critical rate)
8.5 * 0.75 = 6.375 (Brute, at old cap)
5 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 6.1875 (Scrapper against lt or above, at current cap; Stalker, at current cap with Scrapper damage modifier and base 10% critical rate)
6 * 1 = 6 (Blaster, melee attack, at proposed cap; Stalker, at proposed cap using attack that does not critical)
5 * 1.125 * 1.05 = 5.90625 (Scrapper against minion or below, at current cap)
7.75 * 0.75 = 5.8125 (Brute at current cap)

Here's how they'd do for "normal" performance:
2 * 1.125 * 1.31 = 2.9475 (Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting, at MAX 31% critical rate)
2.5 * 1.125 = 2.8125 (Blaster, ranged attack with 100% slotting and 50% defiance buff)
2 * 1 * 1.31 = 2.62 (Stalker with 100% slotting and MAX 31% critical rate)
3.4 * 0.75 = 2.55 (Brute with 100% slotting and 70 Fury)
2.5 * 1 = 2.5 (Blaster, melee attack with 100% slotting and 50% defiance buff)
2 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 2.475 (Scrapper with 100% slotting, against lt or above; Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting, at base 10% critical rate)
2 * 1.125 * 1.05 = 2.3625 (Scrapper with 100% slotting, against minion or below)
2 * 1 * 1.1 = 2.2 (Stalker with 100% slotting at 10% critical rate)

And looking at short-term burst:
4.125 * 1.125 = 4.640625 (Blaster, ranged attack with 100% slotting, 50% defiance, BU and Aim)
2.8 * 1.125 * 1.31 = 4.1265 (Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting and BU, at MAX 31% critical rate)
4.125 * 1 = 4.125 (Blaster, melee attack with 100% slotting, 50% defiance, BU and Aim)
3 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 3.7125 (Scrapper with 100% slotting and BU, against lt or above)
2.8 * 1 * 1.31 = 3.668 (Stalker with 100% slotting and BU, at MAX 31% critical rate)
3 * 1.125 * 1.05 = 3.54375 (Scrapper with 100% slotting and BU, against minion or below)
2.8 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 3.465 (Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting and BU, at base 10% critical rate)
4.2 * 0.75 = 3.15 (Brute with 100% slotting, 70 Fury, and BU)
2.8 * 1 * 1.1 = 3.08 (Stalker with 100% slotting and BU, at 10% critical rate)

Given how the charts shift around with the various buffs, I'd rather see Blasters get the higher damage cap - putting them at the top of everything when capped until a Stalker gets the max teammate buff for criticals, and Stalkers get a higher AT modifier.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Here:

a) didn't catch that you wanted both, I was thinking either/or due to balance considerations; and
b) see my previous post - at their respective caps, which is what I was talking about since we were discussing a damage cap increase, Scrappers are doing more damage than Brutes. Brutes can do more below that until you hit a certain level of +dam that I don't remember and don't feel like recalculating at the moment.

For more silly numbers, a Corruptor at the damage cap getting Scourge on every hit goes to a 7.5 scale, which is below the a Stalker with the full team buff at the current AT modifier and a 600% cap... which is kindof why I was assuming that the 1.2 AND higher cap just wasn't going to happen. Either way, what they have in mind has been presented and seems very similar to some of the ideas that popped up in the buff thread.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Not the buffs I was expecting, but looks good to me. Esp the new mechanic involving assassin's strike, it'll no longer be a one trick pony. Exciting stuff.

I take full and total credit for this, due to the single post I made about it!

>.>

Damn, you are good at maths!

I am leveling two Blasters right now. I haven't played Heroes for years. My very first lvl 50 Hero is a Sonic/Ice Blaster but at the time, there was no sets and I didn't understand the game nearly as much.

One of the blasters I am working on is Beam/Fire. Oh my, Beam Rifle has ridiculously good ST damage. To give you an example, I was running through Signature Arc 1. The elite boss in mission 3, my Blaster pwn him under 10s while my Stalker took at least 20s. Both characters are level 25 and 26 so it's not that big difference.

I really forgot how high damage Blaster is, but I do agree that Blaster should do the most damage in the game since they trade their survivability for it. I guess they are only adding Damage Cap which isn't likely to happen all the time. Blaster should out-damage Scrapper and Stalker.

They already have the highest damage in solo burst (that's the last chart) and general case situations (the middle chart); of course that assumes the same attack and no outside damage buffs which isn't going to be the case most of the time. Adding to their damage cap pushes their high-end performance past that of everybody when capped, including a Stalker at the 31% critical rate at their current modifier.

I think it's the right answer for Blasters. I'll have to reserve judgement on the changes to Stalkers until I see how they make the changes - the addition of a short animation Assassin's Strike to an attack chain could boost their single-target damage by a lot, but if they leave the animation time close to the same it won't help a lot of sets. The degree of change matters a great deal there, and they didn't say how much of the windup time they'd get rid of. I also find it very hard to believe that they'd shorten ALL of them by the 2 second interrupt, since that would leave most of them at 1 second or less. You'll note that if they're using the same attacks, currently Stalkers are actually dead last in solo burst of the ATs I added to the list. Assassin's Strike from hide and a guaranteed critical is the only reason they're even remotely competitive in single-target burst damage.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I walked into the Powersets panel (which was in the NOT to be broadcast room) and snagged a front row seat. I then had the pleasure of telling no less than Black Pebble that the room was full and he'd have to leave(!) when the panel was about to start (which nearly faceplanted every Redname on the panel!).

I went into the panel ready to "UNhide Stalker Issues" for the Devs ... and got totally pre-empted by an entire slide of changes in the powerpoint, which addressed maybe 80% of the problems that Stalkers have as an AT. They then freely admitted that Stalker Performance wasn't where they wanted it to be and that the Issue 22 changes promised are effectively (and this is my paraphrasing) "a down payment" on bringing the AT up to where it needs to be ... specifically in terms of Damage Output. Without even needing to be prompted, more than one of the Devs on the Powers Team admitted that Stalker Damage wasn't where it needed to be and was actively being scrutinized going into Issue 22, and would continue to be monitored during and quite possibly beyond Issue 22 so as to get Stalkers to "where they need to be" as an AT.

After that ... I really didn't have all that much to say about Stalkers during the panel. The Devs kinda sorta pre-empted everything that *really* needed to be said (during the panel).

I did button-hole Synapse and Arbiter Hawk after the panel for a quick discussion of my notion of better leveraging Hide in and during combat as a way to bring the Hide Power to greater prominence other than just avoiding combat and delivering big alpha strikes. There were some murmurs of (and I'm paraphrasing again) "well that's ... interesting ... and ... different" and nods that it might be (stress on MIGHT BE!) something to look into ... but we couldn't really get too deeply into it since we had to clear the room for the next panel.

But just going by a reading of facial expressions I get the feeling that they weren't dismissing the notion out of hand, so that's something at least. And for the record, this is the first opportunity I've had to sit down and post ANYTHING since the end of the summit.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...