Yet again my Group Fly Gripe - Let attacking Null the Gull
By
Lothic,
Posted on: 2011-11-08 06:40 in Suggestions and Ideas
Signed
I always forget to talk to null, remember when SB is getting me and my team killed, then forget again when the missions over ... I want the option in the UI as well.
On a similarly related note, could we get everything about the UI to be saveable. like location of additional trays and windows. I spend 10 min trying to get it all organised and minutes during game play reorganizing it cause I forget some of the things.
Agreed and /signed a thousand times.
Null is never introduced. There is no mention to him anywhere in game. In effect, you can only go see him if you KNOW he is there, and you only know that if you 1) read the forums and know or, 2), if you happen to bump into him on the truck in PD.
If it was a Global application then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But nope, you have to go talk to him on EVERY. DAMN. CHARACTER.
Not cool.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I think Null The Gull is cute, and don't mind hopping atop the truck to visit with him.
But, I read the forums and have the Pocket D transporter..so..I will go away now.
Lisa.
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Ideas:
Introduction Mission at level 5, get him as a contact to call up afterwards when you want to change things.
Missions to unlock Hero Corps/Fateweaver as a Contact to call to change difficulty.
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This....this is a thing? Like, the devs thought this was a good idea? |
Originally Posted by plainguy
OR I can trying to explain to someone Go to pocket D look for a Box truck and on top of that truck is a Sea Gull talk to him and click the option to remove group fly effects. Oh how do you get to pocket D use your Pocket D teleport to get there. Oh you don't have that. Okay then run around these certain zones and look for a door here or there where there are fliers stuck on walls denoting its the pocket D entrance.
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It sounds like one of those hoaxes people make up in old school video games, like getting a water breathing materia to level 99 and then pressing a button combination in this one church where you can see Aerith's ghost.
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The problem with that solution is that ... who want to quit a team, or quit a trial just to change that setting, when it should be part of the UI settings. Also. I'd like the setting to be a slider so I could set the speed I run with SB. I don't mind having a boost to run speed, I just hate how INSANELY fast it is.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
Ideas:
Introduction Mission at level 5, get him as a contact to call up afterwards when you want to change things. Missions to unlock Hero Corps/Fateweaver as a Contact to call to change difficulty. |
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i like the idea to just call them, but i dont like the idea to do a mish for them, just auto grant them as a contact in something like "options" tab on contact window so they are there but not in the way
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Originally Posted by Zortel
Ideas:
Introduction Mission at level 5, get him as a contact to call up afterwards when you want to change things. Missions to unlock Hero Corps/Fateweaver as a Contact to call to change difficulty. |
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I can understand why the Devs decided to implement this thing like this. I'm not saying I AGREE with it - I'm just saying I think I know why they did it like this.|
Originally Posted by Twilightdusk
This....this is a thing? Like, the devs thought this was a good idea?
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Basically the Devs consider the options Null the Gull provides sort of almost like "not ready for prime time" test features. I'm convinced that they are NOT convinced that these options are actually important enough or mainstream enough to make them more fundamental to the game. This is the reason why they are not part of the main options menu and might never be. By keeping them isolated to Null the Gull it would be very easy, if needed, to yank them back out of the game by simply removing Null from Pocket D.
Null the Gull is a convenient method for the Devs to offer these options as a sort of trial balloon for people who really want them. I actually believe the Devs DON'T actually want us to have a way to avoid SB or Group Fly for instance but were willing to offer the compromise of Null the Gull for those people willing to figure it out and go through the motions of having to go to Pocket D to take advantage of them.
Null the Gull is essentially a semi-secret access point that let's the Devs firmly control the questionable (at least to them) options being provided. I agree it's annoying to have to work it this way, but I honestly don't see it changing anytime soon. *shrugs*
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As I recall the Devs explaining it when Null first came out, changing the UI and the options menu is not only difficult given the peculiar way Cryptic coded the game originally, but requires noticeable amounts of programmer time: they can't just slip it into a list of menu options, and post the patch.
However, planting an NPC with said options only requires the tools that were developed when AE came out, and are used to create the new mission content: easy.
And since all the programmers were tied up in this "Freedom" thing until just recently, we got Null The Gull. Now that Freedom is out, the company can think about revisiting the whole concept, but time will tell.
(None of this explains why Null hasn't been given the power to get rid of those #$%@# floating coins yet...)
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if you dont like them i would suggest getting the Coin-B-Gone which is the best current solution for dealing with the coins
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Originally Posted by Seschat
(None of this explains why Null hasn't been given the power to get rid of those #$%@# floating coins yet...)
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Maybe we should get to a more important underline issue. Why are "group fly" and "team TP" even still in the game anyway. I've NEVER heard "does anyone have group flight?", or the more important, "Thank God, we needed a teammate with group fly" Just take those out of the power pool all together. Replace them with something useful and cool.
"team TP" should be what I thought it was when I originally saw it, "assemble team".
"group fly" can be replaced with a grant knock back protection or something.
SB should still have a slider to choose the effect speed. RL you can choose to run your fastest, run, jog, walk, give us that option too.
In fact don't connect it to SB directly, I like to use SS+stealth proc to stealth certain missions and hate that I can't control where I'm going ...
Make a toggle and slider in the UI near the TP option it would be an [IN MISSION RUN/JUMP SPEED SUPPRESSION]
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That's the exact reason Null the Gull exists - to put the features out before having to wait for the UI team to address putting the features in the Option menu. I'm hoping for some serious overhauls with the UI (given Null and the Powers menu mentioned in another thread), but in the mean time, we can talk to the bird.|
Originally Posted by Seschat
As I recall the Devs explaining it when Null first came out, changing the UI and the options menu is not only difficult given the peculiar way Cryptic coded the game originally, but requires noticeable amounts of programmer time: they can't just slip it into a list of menu options, and post the patch.
However, planting an NPC with said options only requires the tools that were developed when AE came out, and are used to create the new mission content: easy. And since all the programmers were tied up in this "Freedom" thing until just recently, we got Null The Gull. Now that Freedom is out, the company can think about revisiting the whole concept, but time will tell. (None of this explains why Null hasn't been given the power to get rid of those #$%@# floating coins yet...) |
Trouble is, like others have mentioned, is that the vast majority of players (I daresay) don't even know Null exists. The only reason I knew about him was by reading the forums and then researching on ParagonWiki.
If he came up as a contact, it might be confusing to some players, but I'm sure many of them would figure out what his purpose was after a few seconds of reading (especially if some additional text was added in certain menus). That at least would make Null more useful in the interim; instead of needing to send all of your characters to Pocket D to talk to him, they could simply call him. Not quite an option menu setting, but still more convenient and far less time-consuming.
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Originally Posted by Seschat
As I recall the Devs explaining it when Null first came out, changing the UI and the options menu is not only difficult given the peculiar way Cryptic coded the game originally, but requires noticeable amounts of programmer time: they can't just slip it into a list of menu options, and post the patch.
However, planting an NPC with said options only requires the tools that were developed when AE came out, and are used to create the new mission content: easy |
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
That's the exact reason Null the Gull exists - to put the features out before having to wait for the UI team to address putting the features in the Option menu. I'm hoping for some serious overhauls with the UI (given Null and the Powers menu mentioned in another thread), but in the mean time, we can talk to the bird.
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Basically if the Devs have ever told anyone that it would be "hard" to put these specific kinds of options in the Options Menu then that was their roundabout way of telling us they don't WANT to do that, not that they CAN'T do that. In fact if you wanted to be picky about this it was probably "harder" to put Null the Gull into the game (from a software point of view) than it would have been to have simply added new options in the existing Options Menu.
No, they isolated these several options to Null the Gull to do just that - isolate them from the "normal" options because they still don't really actually want to accept these compromises as mainstream features. The Devs clearly fought the idea of giving us ways to avoid things like SB and Group Fly for years because people have been suggesting that forever. They only just recently decided to give us a way to do it via Null the Gull. But just because they reluctantly decided to give us options to do that doesn't mean they had to make those options easy to use or widely-obvious. Thus Null the Gull.
Once again it'd be nice if the Devs eventually accepted these options as legitimate and decided to put them in the Options Menu to make them easy to use. But frankly I'm not expecting that to happen anytime soon and, as I've explained, I understand why they did it the way they did. *shrugs*
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People have been suggesting that they "replace" things like Group Fly with "better" powers for close to 8 years now.|
Originally Posted by Twigman
Maybe we should get to a more important underline issue. Why are "group fly" and "team TP" even still in the game anyway.
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Face it, it's not going to happen.
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Group fly/TP might me useful if, you know, there were areas (other than some unimportant rooftops) that required flying/teleporting to get to. As it stands, the two would only be at all useful to teamates who don't have their own travel powers, and unless you're part of a team that always plays together, it's not a good bet to rely on those for travel.
EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it it could be useful for MMs who want to fly/teleport around and don't want to watch their pets run on the ground under them/lag behind excessively.
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Believe it. Or not. Conspiracy theories aren't my game these days |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually I'm not convinced it would be difficult for the Devs to put new options in the Options Menu at all. In fact if you've paid attention our Devs have added new options to the Options Menu relatively regularly for years now.
Basically if the Devs have ever told anyone that it would be "hard" to put these specific kinds of options in the Options Menu then that was their roundabout way of telling us they don't WANT to do that, not that they CAN'T do that. In fact if you wanted to be picky about this it was probably "harder" to put Null the Gull into the game (from a software point of view) than it would have been to have simply added new options in the existing Options Menu. No, they isolated these several options to Null the Gull to do just that - isolate them from the "normal" options because they still don't really actually want to accept these compromises as mainstream features. The Devs clearly fought the idea of giving us ways to avoid things like SB and Group Fly for years because people have been suggesting that forever. They only just recently decided to give us a way to do it via Null the Gull. But just because they reluctantly decided to give us options to do that doesn't mean they had to make those options easy to use or widely-obvious. Thus Null the Gull. Once again it'd be nice if the Devs eventually accepted these options as legitimate and decided to put them in the Options Menu to make them easy to use. But frankly I'm not expecting that to happen anytime soon and, as I've explained, I understand why they did it the way they did. *shrugs* |
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Given that Null added himself to the game the first time he appeared, I'd say it's not that hard at all. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually I'm not convinced it would be difficult for the Devs to put new options in the Options Menu at all. In fact if you've paid attention our Devs have added new options to the Options Menu relatively regularly for years now.
Basically if the Devs have ever told anyone that it would be "hard" to put these specific kinds of options in the Options Menu then that was their roundabout way of telling us they don't WANT to do that, not that they CAN'T do that. In fact if you wanted to be picky about this it was probably "harder" to put Null the Gull into the game (from a software point of view) than it would have been to have simply added new options in the existing Options Menu. |
But seriously... Messing with the UI gives them a chance to break the UI. The choice to turn these effects off was put in quickly. Null was a way to put them in with less chance of something going wrong than trying to quickly add in changes to the UI, as minor as they may be. He doesn't seem all that different than a difficulty adjustment NPC in terms of how he works, they just changed what settings he adjusts and the other differences are all cosmetic and text. There's still a chance that they could have messed something up, but it was less of a chance and took less programmer time to do it.
All that having been said, I do hope they add these things to the full UI menu sometime, but keep Null around to talk with.
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Some MMs (I'm not sure about the occasional Controller/Dom) like these powers because they allow them to move their pets with them.|
Originally Posted by Twigman
Maybe we should get to a more important underline issue. Why are "group fly" and "team TP" even still in the game anyway. I've NEVER heard "does anyone have group flight?", or the more important, "Thank God, we needed a teammate with group fly" Just take those out of the power pool all together. Replace them with something useful and cool.
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Also, wasn't Group Fly used a lot in the old style Hami-raids?
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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all this was before (easily) attainable temp travel and flight powers.|
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
Some MMs (I'm not sure about the occasional Controller/Dom) like these powers because they allow them to move their pets with them.
Also, wasn't Group Fly used a lot in the old style Hami-raids? |
I had team TP on my stone tank, I TPed the whole team into a mob by accident ... funniest team wipe ever. So many confused dead bodies.
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The old Hami raid depended heavily on "Group Fly teams" to get the non-flying Tanks and Scrappers up to the mitos. The addition of temp powers ended that practice.|
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
Some MMs (I'm not sure about the occasional Controller/Dom) like these powers because they allow them to move their pets with them.
Also, wasn't Group Fly used a lot in the old style Hami-raids? |
My Huntsman has Group Fly for the first reason cited: to move his tarantulas around vertical parts of Grandville and some steeper maps (like the temple in the ITF) without them taking the long way and trailing aggro. There are times in the Lambda that I'd love to hover them above the IDF adds in the Marauder fight but I don't because I know that probably half the people on my team have not talked to Null, and I don't want to get yelled at.
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I tried posting in that thread link Obsidius, but its locked.
I would like group fly for my robot ff MM, but not at the sake of pissing off a team or a league.
Add more null the gulls in each zone by the level trainer. At least you can say talk to the bird hanging out by the trainer. That would be a start, so great idea for bringing that up.
At least now I can say I'm gonna use group fly go talk to null the gull to remove it if you don't want it. When I get the comment who is that ? I can respond its the bird hanging out by the trainer in EVERY ZONE and not this one spot that might be difficult for some to get to because of one reason or another.
Great idea on the adding more birds. Again at least it gives players a leg to stand on when at least trying to defend the use of the power. Telling someone its in every zone clearly holds more weight then just one special zone.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
Believe it. Or not. Conspiracy theories aren't my game these days
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I've watched the Devs add dozens of new options to the Options Menu over the years. If it was -actually- hard to do that then why was it so easy for all those other options?
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The mere fact of adding an entire new contact to the game could have had the potential to "break" something as well. I remain unconvinced that it was "easier" to add an entirely new contact with new options to the game than it would have been to add a few new options to the Options Menu, something they have ALREADY DONE many times before.
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Originally Posted by Rabid_M
Given that Null added himself to the game the first time he appeared, I'd say it's not that hard at all.
But seriously... Messing with the UI gives them a chance to break the UI. The choice to turn these effects off was put in quickly. Null was a way to put them in with less chance of something going wrong than trying to quickly add in changes to the UI, as minor as they may be. He doesn't seem all that different than a difficulty adjustment NPC in terms of how he works, they just changed what settings he adjusts and the other differences are all cosmetic and text. There's still a chance that they could have messed something up, but it was less of a chance and took less programmer time to do it. All that having been said, I do hope they add these things to the full UI menu sometime, but keep Null around to talk with. |
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Stop giving them excuses.
They need to spend the time to create this under the options UI.
If you like the Gull...awesome...good for you.
They don't need to remove him from the game...but they NEED to add his options to the option UI.
Okay every time I post I try to gripe about group fly and making where it does not effect other team mates that do not want it on them.
People bring up Null the Gull, but I retort back that Null the Gull is just a little too late when your trying to use it. It should not be my job to promote Null the Gull to a team of players or have to show people where this thing is. Especially if I am on a Task Force or Incarnate mission. Though you would think Incarnate stuff might be good since you pretty much start off in Pocket D right.
Further the honest reality is me saying I'm not going to turn off my Group Fly if you want it off go to Null the Gull in Pocket D and get it turned off or you can kick me from the team, will just get me kicked from a team.
What needs to be done is either change how Group Fly works or here it goes. Get ready.. Its a biggie..
MOVE THE NULL THE GULL OPTION OVER THE THE PLAYERS INTERFACE...
OMG I said.. I know its amazing... Mind blowing... Please, Please I know it makes too much sense to the point of confusing the heck out of many, but its that simple.. Why do I need to go to a NPC in a zone to remove group fly when I can disable team teleport in my interface or disable group gifts.
Yet again another mind blowing idea. Why not have the option to disable group fly right below the option to disable group teleport.
OHHH.. I did it again.. I know I used common sense twice in one posting. I will probably get banned or something.. Matter of fact I think I hear the crazy police running up my stairs now to get me.
But seriously I will show people on a team how to remove group fly if I can just explain how to get to it in their interface.
OR I can trying to explain to someone Go to pocket D look for a Box truck and on top of that truck is a Sea Gull talk to him and click the option to remove group fly effects. Oh how do you get to pocket D use your Pocket D teleport to get there. Oh you don't have that. Okay then run around these certain zones and look for a door here or there where there are fliers stuck on walls denoting its the pocket D entrance.
Which one do you think is easier and which one do you think will get a more positive response ?
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2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives