If Blaster Psi Blast Should Had 100ft Range...
By
ArcticFahx,
Posted on: 2011-11-07 22:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Psi needs a serious rework. AR has 100 foot range in it's tier 1 and 90 foot range in its tier 2. So there is a precedent.
Psi needs it's projectile speed increased (or better yet make it instantaneous, it is thought after all).
Psi needs to have at least some of it's attacks deal a mix of Smashing and Psi so that you can kill things that have resistance to Psi.
Psi's lack of AoE also cripples the set, not much can be done here without breaking the cottage rule though.
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I would have been happy with a straight port from defenders. Why they decided to butcher the set so badly when porting it to, arguably, one of the ATs that needs the most help is beyond me.
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It was because of PvP. It's as simple as that.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
I would have been happy with a straight port from defenders. Why they decided to butcher the set so badly when porting it to, arguably, one of the ATs that needs the most help is beyond me.
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There was already precedent of having ranged attacks being longer than 80'. See Snipes. There was also precedent of having ranged attacks being shorter than 80'. See "heavy blasts" ala Power Burst, Shout, Blaze, etc.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Psi needs a serious rework. AR has 100 foot range in it's tier 1 and 90 foot range in its tier 2. So there is a precedent.
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Bringing up this point is a moot one at best.
As for why the entire set was brought down to 80' instead of the original 100'? Boost Range. No other AT had access to this power. Being able to boost the range of your primary attacks to over 200' (nearing 400' for the snipe) was not an option.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
There was already precedent of having ranged attacks being longer than 80'. See Snipes. There was also precedent of having ranged attacks being shorter than 80'. See "heavy blasts" ala Power Burst, Shout, Blaze, etc.
Bringing up this point is a moot one at best. |
The powers we're talking about are not snipes. IMO your point here is the moot one.
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| As for why the entire set was brought down to 80' instead of the original 100'? Boost Range. No other AT had access to this power. Being able to boost the range of your primary attacks to over 200' (nearing 400' for the snipe) was not an option. |
The actual range would be approx 160 feet.
The exact distance of Slug, Assault Rifle's Tier 2 blast when boosted with Boost Range. How is that "not an option?"
PS Blaster Dark Blast also has the full 175 ft range snipe of the parent set, verus Psi's nerfed 150ft range.
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And the second portion of my response does not deal with snipes. The original point being made was that there are powers with longer than normal range. There are also powers with shorter than normal range.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The powers we're talking about are not snipes.
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| The actual range would be approx 160 feet. |
And you're saying having one power with a long range is equal to having 6 powers with a long range?
EDIT: Added snipe issue response.
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Not at all, actually.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
It was because of PvP. It's as simple as that.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
And the second portion of my response does not deal with snipes. The original point being made was that there are powers with longer than normal range. There are also powers with shorter than normal range.
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The statement Milady's Knight made that you called "a moot one at best" was that Assault Rifle has standard attacks that exceed 80ft range. The precedent he was talking about are standard attacks, which are normally confined to 80ft base range max by convention, which is specifically exceeded as special features in Assault Rifle and 2 out of 3 versions of Psi Blast. Snipes have a completely different convention and have nothing to do with that conversation. Powers with less than 80ft range also have nothing to do with the topic.
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Don't forget also 3 Damage/Range HOs. 220' And you're saying having one power with a long range is equal to having 6 powers with a long range? |
Likewise, don't forget that 3 Damage/Range HOs in a 80ft power + Boost Range is 175ft. 3 Damage/Range HOs is actually 215ft, not 220. Anything with Boost Range has long distance attacks. This is not, IMO, justification to nerf an entire power set. Especially not something as pre-nerfed as Blaster Psi Blast.
Also, Dark Blast keeps its long range snipe. It's 175ft range on all versions of Dark but only 2 out of 3 versions of Psi. Why? Well, if it's Boost Range, then Moonbeam really should have been nerfed. I actually have a Dark/En but I couldn't tell you what I would actually do with a 400ft snipe outside PVP.
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And you ignored that AR already has that distance, and AR/Energy has access to Boost Range.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
As for why the entire set was brought down to 80' instead of the original 100'? Boost Range. No other AT had access to this power. Being able to boost the range of your primary attacks to over 200' (nearing 400' for the snipe) was not an option.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Isn't AR mostly Lethal Damage?
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
And you ignored that AR already has that distance, and AR/Energy has access to Boost Range.
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Then please enlighten me? Psychic Blast was proliferated to blasters in i12 before the i13 pvp bust happened. Between i9 and i13 I played a rad/psy defender in pvp extensively so I know as well as you do that if blasters got defender psychic blast at that time it would break pvp (before they would break pvp a mere 1 issue later). The number of forum posts against blasters getting defender psy blast in its current state were rampant.
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Originally Posted by macskull
Not at all, actually.
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Yes, but as was already pointed out against most non-PvP enemies in the game psi damage doesn't have any significant advantage.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Isn't AR mostly Lethal Damage?
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There are a few enemies with a weakness to psi damage, mostly found in the early levels, and quite a few with significant resistance or defense against psi.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Then please enlighten me? Psychic Blast was proliferated to blasters in i12 before the i13 pvp bust happened. Between i9 and i13 I played a rad/psy defender in pvp extensively so I know as well as you do that if blasters got defender psychic blast at that time it would break pvp (before they would break pvp a mere 1 issue later). The number of forum posts against blasters getting defender psy blast in its current state were rampant.
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The only problem with this is that except for the shorter range, Blaster Psy Blast's significant drawback isn't it's single target burst damage. If they were worried about that, the introduction of an Aim clone and removal of an AoE power seems a very strange choice of edits to the set. If anything, Blaster Psy Blast seems specialized for PVP. The removal of Psychic Scream speaks to a motivation I can't name, possibly that they thought psychic damage would cut through PvE content much better than it actually does. Subsequent comments from developers indicates that even today it is generally believed by many developers that Psi has a significant PvE advantage.
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This was because something even more significant happened that issue: VEATs went live and fortunatas were wrecking opponents with dominate. I don't think a lot of people recognized the mechanics behind the attack (that it wasn't a ranged attack, it was a psi attack and therefore no one had defense against it) and it just helped to reinforce the idea that "omg psi is overpowered!".|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Then please enlighten me? Psychic Blast was proliferated to blasters in i12 before the i13 pvp bust happened. Between i9 and i13 I played a rad/psy defender in pvp extensively so I know as well as you do that if blasters got defender psychic blast at that time it would break pvp (before they would break pvp a mere 1 issue later). The number of forum posts against blasters getting defender psy blast in its current state were rampant.
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My stalkers wouldn't have cared either way because psi doesn't do a dead blaster much good.
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At 50, I would sometimes rather have Lethal (Carnies resist psychic and are weak to lethal).
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Isn't AR mostly Lethal Damage?
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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It was my understanding that was due to the fact Psy Scream is a big part of Psi Assault which was also being ported to Blasters (with a heavy Psy Shockwave nerf which subsequently went back to Domis), and if devs ported the set with watered down Psy Shock and no Psy Scream the set would have been a lot less appealing, to me at least as unlike Psi Blast it is a set known for its aoe. Though this did have an effect of polarising the sets I love /psy and think devs made the right decision in this respect. That said maybe it wouldn't hurt trying to slot a new aoe in the primary, or at least buffing Psinado.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The only problem with this is that except for the shorter range, Blaster Psy Blast's significant drawback isn't it's single target burst damage. If they were worried about that, the introduction of an Aim clone and removal of an AoE power seems a very strange choice of edits to the set. If anything, Blaster Psy Blast seems specialized for PVP. The removal of Psychic Scream speaks to a motivation I can't name, possibly that they thought psychic damage would cut through PvE content much better than it actually does. Subsequent comments from developers indicates that even today it is generally believed by many developers that Psi has a significant PvE advantage.
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@Rooks
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The devs borked up a couple things.
The range is one. You need the extra range because it takes an extra attack or two to defeat robotic enemies(which there happen to be a rather large amount of throughout the game) or other foes with psi resist. Range also gave Psi blast flavor.
What else gave it flavor? the cone attack, mostly for its unmistakable sound fx. Moreso, subdue. moving subdue to the secondary was not a good call.
"but ONOZ, they needed a ST immob tier one!!!!zorz" EEHHHH! No they didnt, they should have put TK thrust in tier one to act like power thrust in /nrg manip. That boring eyesore of a power psi dart should have remained a dom exclusive, and mental blast and subdue should have stayed the course. They could have put conserve power, power boost, boost range, etc in the slot where TK thrust is now.
Now, i can see putting the cone into the secondary as it did really spice up the new manip set. but somthing needed to go back into psi/ to fill the aoe hole. Nothing did. So we have a set with
Range nerfed
Aoe nerfed(moved to secondary)
ST utility removed(ST immob and solid dmg from subdue)
Will Dom nerfed- omg dmg nerf
This set needs a pass. If they want it to remain a ST dmg set, then they should up the range and restore Will dom. otherwise it should get an AOE, or maybe at the least Psinadoe should get a solid increase, enough increase to cover for two normal AOE powers. There is precedent in the ST focus with Ice blast. but Ice blast works. Psi blast is like Ice blast's Sk'd up 30 lvls sidekick.
the pvp stuff- yeah its true. Deny if you want haters, but the PWNZ forum was filled with new anti PSI threads every day the "old ones" from yesterday got pushed pages back. Crying, gnashing of teeth, doomz, etc. it was overblown to say the least.
Psi/ is still in time out. I keep hope, as once upon a time fire/ice tanks got fire armor put in time out and now thats mostly fixed, sort of. IH toggle got /regen into time out, and /regen just got a recent increase to it's auto power. So, maybe down the road Psi blast can stop staring at the corner and rejoin the class too.
*edit
I get sort of bothered by this issue. mostly, because Psi blast was a set I wanted on blasters from almost day one of my sub in I2. then they announced proliferation, and I hoped. And then they announced it would get the port, and i jumped for joy. then they released this mockery of the original, this set that is so distorted you almost cant compare them besides the power names, this ABSOLUTE DISSAPOINTMENT of what could have been. I put it out of my mind most of the time. i only notice it at character creation. Mouse over it, shake my head and choose something else. or when someone brings it up again on the boards 
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Tex hit the nail on the head a few posts below yours. The power that was removed from the set was an AoE, which would certainly not have been taken in a PvP build. The range was reduced to 80 feet because if it had stayed at 100 feet a Blaster would have had a complete 4+ attack chain from 100 feet (plus Boost Range if we're considering that).
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Then please enlighten me? Psychic Blast was proliferated to blasters in i12 before the i13 pvp bust happened. Between i9 and i13 I played a rad/psy defender in pvp extensively so I know as well as you do that if blasters got defender psychic blast at that time it would break pvp (before they would break pvp a mere 1 issue later). The number of forum posts against blasters getting defender psy blast in its current state were rampant.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I've never really studied Blaster Psi Set but I just pulled up Mids and I can't understand why people trash Psi Blaster so much.
1. It has Aim. Corr/Defender version doesn't. This fits Blaster's style.
2. It has a typical 4s, 8s and 10s and you have another fast-activating attack in Will Domination. I see the recharge is nerfed from 14s to 20s and damage is nerfed but TK Blast also hits harder than Corr's version.
3. 80' range is a good range. Yes, it's not 100' ft but I think Assault Rifle has longer range because it doesn't have Aim and a true tier 3 attack. I can see a problem in pvp if you hit Boost Range with 100ft and with 4 decent fast-activating attacks.
The only downside I see is having no Scream but epic aoe Statistic Discharge recharges at 12s instead of patron aoe 32s and you can get Scream from /mental. So you at least have two options for range cone aoes if you want.
Overall, it really doesn't look like it loses its advantage. They add Aim for Blaster's burst damage and made TK Blast better and you get a typical 4s and 8s tier. The only bad power I see is Scramble Thought. 3s activation is just too long. Fortunata's Scramble Thought at least has mag 4 stun. And I can't imagine them giving Blaster a mag 4 stun... lol :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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This is the problem right here. You've studied it not played it. There are a lot of things about the set that pulling it up on mids just doesn't tell you. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I've never really studied Blaster Psi Set but I just pulled up Mids and I can't understand why people trash Psi Blaster so much.
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| 1. It has Aim. Corr/Defender version doesn't. This fits Blaster's style. |
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| 2. It has a typical 4s, 8s and 10s and you have another fast-activating attack in Will Domination. I see the recharge is nerfed from 14s to 20s and damage is nerfed but TK Blast also hits harder than Corr's version. |
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| 3. 80' range is a good range. Yes, it's not 100' ft but I think Assault Rifle has longer range because it doesn't have Aim and a true tier 3 attack. I can see a problem in pvp if you hit Boost Range with 100ft and with 4 decent fast-activating attacks. |
The blaster AT is dev designed to be a kill before it kills you type of AT. Long animation times, slow projectile speeds, and short ranged powers all run contrary to that design. That and the lack of mez protection are the 2 greatest problems a blaster faces. It's why blasters chew through inspirations like candy. Their power sets DO NOT give them the survival tools that they need or that the other ATs have built into their power sets.
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| The only downside I see is having no Scream but epic aoe Statistic Discharge recharges at 12s instead of patron aoe 32s and you can get Scream from /mental. So you at least have two options for range cone aoes if you want. |
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| Overall, it really doesn't look like it loses its advantage. They add Aim for Blaster's burst damage and made TK Blast better and you get a typical 4s and 8s tier. The only bad power I see is Scramble Thought. 3s activation is just too long. Fortunata's Scramble Thought at least has mag 4 stun. And I can't imagine them giving Blaster a mag 4 stun... lol :P |
Over all Psi/ really has no advantages. The secondary effect is -rech but it doesn't prevent the mobs from closing to range and using their melee attacks. The secondary effect only kicks in after the mob has used all of it's attacks which, in the late game, means that either it is dead before it makes a difference or you are.
Most mobs can close 80 feet in under 2 seconds. Psi has faster animations on it's single target attacks but a projectile that moves at sprint speed makes fast animations moot. Scramble Thoughts is an abomination. It's 80 foot range does NOT make up for the combined misery of a 3 second animation with a sprint speed projectile.
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+will dom nerf. (and yes I am aware of the buff to tk blast, it doesnt equate)
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Originally Posted by macskull
Tex hit the nail on the head a few posts below yours. The power that was removed from the set was an AoE, which would certainly not have been taken in a PvP build. The range was reduced to 80 feet because if it had stayed at 100 feet a Blaster would have had a complete 4+ attack chain from 100 feet (plus Boost Range if we're considering that).
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But doesn't most of what you said apply to Psi Corr as well? Psi has slower traveling speed just like most Psi attacks. The thread made me feel like Blaster's version sucks but in reality I think Blaster Psi Set is pretty "standard" except for one less aoe which if you feel the need to grab, you can. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
This is the problem right here. You've studied it not played it. There are a lot of things about the set that pulling it up on mids just doesn't tell you.
Pretty much a non sequitur. Blaster role on a team is AoE and single target damage. Psi is woefully lacking in AoE. The highlighted part here is the problem. The reason the recharge is so long on Will Domination is that it applies a control. The problem here is the recharge is consistent with a HARD control. Will Dom is a soft control. Also the only reason that the blaster hits harder is AT modifier. The devs warped the damage to recharge formula on this when they ported it. I'm sorry but it is NOT good in this case. AR's 100 foot and 90 foot ranged powers do damage as soon as you activate them. Psi has a projectile and the projectile moves so slowly that you can cast it, que up a melee attack, move into melee range and, if the melee attack has a short animation time, have both attacks deal damage at the same time. The blaster AT is dev designed to be a kill before it kills you type of AT. Long animation times, slow projectile speeds, and short ranged powers all run contrary to that design. That and the lack of mez protection are the 2 greatest problems a blaster faces. It's why blasters chew through inspirations like candy. Their power sets DO NOT give them the survival tools that they need or that the other ATs have built into their power sets. Which makes a Psi/MM/Elec the only power set combination that actually makes a Psi Blaster fit the blaster mold. That doesn't leave many options for play style choices and means that ANY other primary works better since combining Psi/ with /Mental means that you do almost nothing but Psi damage and when you run into things that resist Psi (because things that resist Psi typically have very high resistance to Psi) you don't have another damage type to use to kill the resistant foes with enough speed to kill before you are dead. We had a mag 4 stun. It was called Total Focus. The stun got nerfed and we lost our only one shot Boss control tool because we weren't controllers. The animation wasn't sped up to make up for it. Over all Psi/ really has no advantages. The secondary effect is -rech but it doesn't prevent the mobs from closing to range and using their melee attacks. The secondary effect only kicks in after the mob has used all of it's attacks which, in the late game, means that either it is dead before it makes a difference or you are. Most mobs can close 80 feet in under 2 seconds. Psi has faster animations on it's single target attacks but a projectile that moves at sprint speed makes fast animations moot. Scramble Thoughts is an abomination. It's 80 foot range does NOT make up for the combined misery of a 3 second animation with a sprint speed projectile. |
And I thought TK Blast is pretty instant? Will Domination needs to have its damage reduced. Dude, you are looking at a activation time 1s, 1.67, 1s and 1.1s (Will D) attack. This is a very fast attack chain. I can't imagine Will Domination having the same damage as Corr's version.
And also, is the sleep from Will Domination 100%? mag 3 sleep is very useful when you solo. You can hit Will Domination first and move on to other targets.
I just don't see why Psi Set is that bad on Blaster because if it's bad on Blaster, then it's bad on every other Psi sets isn't it?
Oh!!!!!!!!!!! Both TK Blast and Will Domination have 80' range!!! I thought they nerfed TK Blast to 40' range to match most of tier 3 attacks. Isn't this an advantage too? A Psi Blaster can reliably stay at 80' range while a Fire Blast user needs to move in and out.
Sorry I am still not buying that Psi set sucks on Blaster. I think this set just falls into another "If it's not doing Fire Blast damage, it sucks" kind of category. In fact, the more I read about it, the more Psi Blast looks decent except for the aoe part.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
You know its bad when you're being compared unfavourably to AR.
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Yes it's bad as a blaster primary.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
But doesn't most of what you said apply to Psi Corr as well? Psi has slower traveling speed just like most Psi attacks. The thread made me feel like Blaster's version sucks but in reality I think Blaster Psi Set is pretty "standard" except for one less aoe which if you feel the need to grab, you can.
And I thought TK Blast is pretty instant? Will Domination needs to have its damage reduced. Dude, you are looking at a activation time 1s, 1.67, 1s and 1.1s (Will D) attack. This is a very fast attack chain. I can't imagine Will Domination having the same damage as Corr's version. And also, is the sleep from Will Domination 100%? mag 3 sleep is very useful when you solo. You can hit Will Domination first and move on to other targets. I just don't see why Psi Set is that bad on Blaster because if it's bad on Blaster, then it's bad on every other Psi sets isn't it? Oh!!!!!!!!!!! Both TK Blast and Will Domination have 80' range!!! I thought they nerfed TK Blast to 40' range to match most of tier 3 attacks. Isn't this an advantage too? A Psi Blaster can reliably stay at 80' range while a Fire Blast user needs to move in and out. Sorry I am still not buying that Psi set sucks on Blaster. I think this set just falls into another "If it's not doing Fire Blast damage, it sucks" kind of category. In fact, the more I read about it, the more Psi Blast looks decent except for the aoe part. |
1) It provides no useful mitigation. Anything that lives long enough for the -rech to be useful has lived long enough to defeat you.
2) It's heavily resisted late game.
3) It doesn't matter that the single target activations are fast since you can only burst one target and then you are waiting while your attacks recharge.
4) The slow projectile speed makes the fast activations moot. The mobs will still get their attacks off at you because the projectile speed "nerfs" the fast attack chain.
5) 3 even con minions can defeat you because the set lacks enough AoE to take minions out.
6) No matter what Secondary or Epic powers you take, any other primary will still perform better.
The only reason the set works on a defender or a corruptor is the extra range coupled with buffs or debuffs from the primary or secondary.
If you think it's that good then stop being a fanboi and roll one. Don't pair it with /Mental, don't pair it with the Electric Epic but do compare it primary to primary. If you really want to waste the time leveling one, and then waste the time and influence IOing it to make it merely sub-par please be my guest.
There is a reason that you see it used as an attack set for Corruptors and Defenders. It doesn't lack the AoE, it doesn't lack the range.
For blasters it has multiple disadvantages and no strengths to compensate. The player base knows this, that's why you don't see any Psi blasters being played.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I'm not going to pretend that restoring the Range in Blaster Psi Blast would fix all of the set's issues, but I wish the developers would put this benefit back into this version of the set. It seems like an obvious partial fix, so I'm surprised it is not discussed more often on the boards. The Corruptor and Defender versions of Psi Blast both have 20ft more range in all attacks. As far as I can tell, the Blaster version is the only example of a proliferated set losing range in all of its powers from the conversion. Even the Controller APP versions of Psionic Tornado and Mental Blast have more range.
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Psi Blast on all ATs is not an overpowered set. Taking away its one major advantage (huge range) really hurts it. It's been demonstrated elsewhere that the developer contention that psychic damage grants big advantages does not pan out against the actual enemies we are forced to fight.
[BTW just read the title. This is why you should never post after midnight.