The origins were actually more diverse early in the game's development, but they were condensed down before the game went live. At this point it doesn't really make much sense to expand them, especially when it effectively adds nothing to the game (Magic can already be played as Artifact or Mystic, for instance). Plus, it would require a complete overhaul of DOs and SOs.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I wasn't really arguing for any significant changes to gameplay, such as enhancements or contacts. I just thought it might help flesh out the character generation screen a little bit, add to theme, and reduce confusion.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
The origins were actually more diverse early in the game's development, but they were condensed down before the game went live. At this point it doesn't really make much sense to expand them, especially when it effectively adds nothing to the game (Magic can already be played as Artifact or Mystic, for instance). Plus, it would require a complete overhaul of DOs and SOs.
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I'd be perfectly fine with enhancements in the Magic category, for example, applicable to both Artifacts and Mystics. Hell, once character generation is over, I wouldn't mind if the game just treated you as Magic in every way except said "Mystic (Magic)" or something in your ID profile.
I just find the current origin system kind of odd thematically. For example, people like to lump "Alien" under "Natural", which sounds odd and counter-intuitive and doesn't really add anything to the character generation process. If you make a psychic, for example, is that Natural or is that Mutant or what is it? There's no real guideline, so what's the point of having the choice if the obvious options aren't reflected in the available choices?
I just felt this expanded origin system would answer the "Where do your powers come from?" part of character generation in a way that categorically reflects many common origins in comic book literature.
As I said, its not intended to change anything in the game play, just correct and improve what I feel is a small and confusing hiccup in character generation. The origin selection has more to do with the overall theme of your character than any significant matter in gameplay so for gameplay purposes I would leave the 5 origins the same.
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so your asking for subclasses of the current origins?
again like mentioned origins essentially add nothing to the game and most people put better descriptions in their character bios than what the actual origins offer
soooooo.....
Why do all this instead of just filling in the specific information in your bio? Especially since you're trying to pigeonhole things that I simply don't agree with.
For instance, you have "Creature" as a subclass of "Mutant." But what if that ability is natural to that creature? They're not a mutant then - they share the same traits as the rest of their race (such as, say, a chameleon being able to change color, various lizards being able to regrow body parts and the like. Those aren't "Mutations." Or what if the creature is the result of a science experiment?)
Why is "Accident" subclassed as "Science," when it could well be that an alien spore infested you - and any human getting that same spore would do the same thing? That would be "natural" for that combination. (See: Peacebringers.)
Don't try to get more fine grained. The wide open nature of the current origins work fine, and give people a LOT of leeway. Use the space in your bio if you feel like being specific.
I honestly wouldn't mind if they took out origins completely. They don't seem to add anything to the game outside of a vague character concept. The thematic names make enhancements harder to determine what they actually enhance. Origin is better suited for the bio screen than the first step in character creation. Heck, they've even done away with the origin starting contacts. Get rid of them, don't expand them.
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I wouldn't mind this either. I just don't think the current origins are very well thought-out. Either they should be removed or improved so that their purpose is fulfilled. At the moment, I think they're biggest advantage is that it helps to ask questions about your character during character generation and gets you thinking about "how did I get my powers" and fleshing out your hero. I think that's useful, but I can understand why some others might disagree. |
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
I honestly wouldn't mind if they took out origins completely. They don't seem to add anything to the game outside of a vague character concept. The thematic names make enhancements harder to determine what they actually enhance. Origin is better suited for the bio screen than the first step in character creation. Heck, they've even done away with the origin starting contacts. Get rid of them, don't expand them.
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At the moment though, I like ways of defining and describing characters in the game. The origins appeal to me for much the same reasons that those little titles above people's names appeal to some. It's just another way of displaying/choosing some of the theme/style of your character.
But if origins were removed completely, I don't think I'd miss them. Right now they feel awkward and pointless, however, at least during character generation.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Why do all this instead of just filling in the specific information in your bio? Especially since you're trying to pigeonhole things that I simply don't agree with.
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That's a little bit extreme, isn't it? I'm just trying to say the current options have almost no definition to them, and many common themes for origins don't apply to the categories or apply to more than one. Since is the first choice you make in the game about your character, that's a little bit strange. It's even worse since the character generator doesn't reveal any of the consequences for your choice, not that there are that many.
You'll still have all the options that you ever did, just a few more choices to choose from. Geez. If you want to say your human/alien hybrid shoots light beams out of his eyes as a result of Training, that's fine I guess. Go ahead. I'm not stopping you.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Why is "Accident" subclassed as "Science," when it could well be that an alien spore infested you - and any human getting that same spore would do the same thing? That would be "natural" for that combination. (See: Peacebringers.)
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Trained by the government? Natural, obviously.
Ex-military? Natural. Ninja training? Natural.
Infected by an alien spore? Natural, apparently, for some reason.
Bombarded by cosmic rays? Natural. Anybody bombarded like that would develop powers.
Come from another planet? Natural. Everybody there has powers.
A fairie from an alternate dimension? Natural, of course. Fairies can't get more natural.
Does this choice really reveal anything about your powers' origin at all?
What if you had picked up a magical hammer that transformed you into a demigod? Is that "natural" for the same reasons that bonding with an alien spore is natural? What if it wasn't a magical hammer, but an alien spaceship? The mystical tree of life? If something changes you and causes you have to super powers that definitely shouldn't be "natural". What if you're a ghost that holds onto reality by sheer force of will and randomly possesses someone? Would you want to lump every one of these examples under the same category?
You can't just apply anything and say its "natural" and this sort of reasoning is why I don't feel five categories is enough to lump many of the common origins. The merger of an alien symbiote with a human host always sounded like a medical augmentation to me, either through accident or purposeful infection, as neither creature possessed their powers initially. Regardless, there should be some kind of "alien" origin to represent the innate inherent abilities from people that are not human, to have a seperate origin from humans who have trained through work and conditioning. Totally different origins, backstories, concepts, etc.
If you were infected by an alien spore then the origin of your powers shouldn't be "natural". Your powers weren't natural to you, they were the result of something that happened to you. We should have an origin choice that reflects that.
"Natural" is so broad and elusive that its pointless as a category and doesn't give any hint as to how you got your powers. It therefore doesn't categorize anything nor does it inspire in any way. It is a nicer way of saying "Other" in City of Heroes lingo.
We can do better.
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I like the idea of moving origin to the end of character creation, but I disagree with the subcategories you've come up with, basically because I don't feel they're nearly as exhaustive as the current origins, nor as well linked thematically. One of my characters is a Frost Giant, as in Norse myth, Magic origin (an earlier incarnation on another server was Natural, which was ok but I liked it less). But he doesn't get his power from an artifact, and he's certainly not a mystic. Under your categories he'd be either a Creature (mutant) or an Alien (is this its own origin category? it's not connected to one of the existing origins in your OP). But I don't want him to carry a [Mutagen], or equip sciency-named alien organs when he uses SOs.
I also dislike the idea of Psychic being its own origin. That doesn't make sense to me. Origin explains how/why you have your powers. If the answer to "how can you read my mind" is "because I'm psychic," that doesn't explain anything. "Because I went through extensive training to unlock my latent potential" is an explanation, as is "my doohickey lobe was enlarged by exposure to omega radiation", or "I cast a spell that allows me to read your spiritual aura."
The only new origin we need is Incarnate.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
We need an option to buy origins change in the store.
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1. Correction. You want an option to buy origins change in the store.|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
We need an option to buy origins change in the store.
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2. Not gonna happen any time soon. Origins have been linked to powers that cannot be respeced out of.
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No it isn't. What you call the lack of definition is what makes the current Origins so flexible and gives us the freedom to exercise our imaginations.
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Originally Posted by Lord Rahvin
That's a little bit extreme, isn't it? I'm just trying to say the current options have almost no definition to them,
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Not to mention the Devs being on record for saying how Origins, along with powersets, are coded so deep into the game and such that, short of a CoH2, this simply isn't happening.
That, and I honestly don't see the need, so /unsigned here
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You sound like you're taking this personally. Don't. I'm pointing out that you're trying to add quite a bit of restriction to something that doesn't need it. |
Originally Posted by Lord Rahvin
Geez, I'm sorry. I certainly didn't mean to pidgeonhole you.
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| That's a little bit extreme, isn't it? I'm just trying to say the current options have almost no definition to them, and many common themes for origins don't apply to the categories or apply to more than one. |
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| You'll still have all the options that you ever did, just a few more choices to choose from. Geez. If you want to say your human/alien hybrid shoots light beams out of his eyes as a result of Training, that's fine I guess. Go ahead. I'm not stopping you. |
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| See, this is why I'm saying that a little more definition is a good thing. By this logic, EVERYTHING is "natural". |
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| You can't just apply anything and say its "natural" and this sort of reasoning is why I don't feel five categories is enough to lump many of the common origins. |
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| We can do better. |
My points are:
1. You're wanting to restrict something that, right now, is wide open, and
2. You're asking to add potentially a fair bit of work for something that makes no difference, and could potentially break other bits of the game.
And 3 - and I'm sorry to keep saying it, I'm not trying to sound like a broken record - but what you want ("more definition") can be done by just writing out your specifics in the bio.
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Errrrrr.....|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Not to mention the Devs being on record for saying how Origins, along with powersets, are coded so deep into the game and such that, short of a CoH2, this simply isn't happening.
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Have they?
That's something *I* have said as a suspicion for why they can't be respecced. I don't recall seeing a redname verify it. If they have, I'd love to see it.
I'm 99.9% certain of it. It was in response to one of the frequent AT/Origin changing threads...no, I think it was in a livestream, actually, in response to a similar question. It was said that things like origin, AT and powerset choices are very deeply coded into the game, or something like that. And that, while things like respecs are possible and maybe even powerset swaps with a lot of work, other changes would require massive amounts of re-writing.
(The above may be wrong, I can't remember exactly where it was said, and I don't feel like trawling through massive backlog to find out XD )
Either way, it's simply not worth the effort. Also, it would cause havoc when it came to buying and slotting Enhancements.
Not to mention concepts that are neither of the two suggested splits per origin.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This. Exactly this. By having broad categories, we can be assured that any concept you can think of can fit into at least one of them (I challenge you to come up with a character background that can't somehow be fitted into one of the existing categories), but your more detailed lists limits the possible origins to 8-9.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Not to mention concepts that are neither of the two suggested splits per origin.
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I could come up with my own example, but let's take one of yours Rahvin. In that rant about how "oh, by that logic, ANYTHING can be natural!" you mention Faries. Where would they fit in your new categorization?
In the current categorization, nobody would hesitate to say "magic," but they neither got their power from an artifact, nor were they gifted with the power through study or divine intervention, for them it's simply natural though it doesn't fit into either of your "normal" categories either. So what do we list them as? Alien? While that may be technically accurate I'm assuming that you count alien under science? What business does a Fairy have having science-type SOs and DOs?
If you want to allow as many different concepts as possible, vague = good. If, for some unfathomable reason, you 'want' to limit the number of possible character concepts for players to work with, then sure, go for more and more detailed origins.
But like you said in the end, this wouldn't have any effect on the gameplay. All it would do would be to force everyone into a set of backstories, in exchange for you being able to have "mystic" in your title instead of just typing in the bio space "This hero got his powers through years of arcane study!"
Origins are like the most integral yet useless part of CoH... i don't think anything really uses them any more seriously.
The first missions don't use them
The dual/single origin enhancements use them but those enhancements I don't think anyone really uses any more.
There is a mission set that uses origins to decide something (the Percy missions at like lvl 30 in Croatoa)
I think you can also call it up as a variable in dialogue for AE...
That's about it >.> Is there something else they do? I can't think of anything.
edit: don't they also change the frequency of the salvage drops you get?
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Erm, maybe not at endgame, but I'm level 15 right now (bit of a noob) and DOs I can use that drop get slotted immediately.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The dual/single origin enhancements use them but those enhancements I don't think anyone really uses any more.
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I view them as a waste of money|
Originally Posted by Twilightdusk
Erm, maybe not at endgame, but I'm level 15 right now (bit of a noob) and DOs I can use that drop get slotted immediately.
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I go enhancementless till lvl 12 and then deck myself completely with lvl 15 IOs
Wait till 25 and then deck myself with all lvl 25 IOs
I don't think I have a character that I've gotten to lvl 50 and attempted to deck out yet. I like lvl 25 IOs because then i can have the effects for ouro for most of the missions.
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Yeah, this is incredibly untrue. I would venture to guess that MOST people in the actual game-world use SO/DOs. I for one, have so many characters under level 25, that I have millions invested in SO/DOs.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
The dual/single origin enhancements use them but those enhancements I don't think anyone really uses any more.
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Plus, I hate crafting, I would rather be playing, so many of my characters at well ABOVE 30 are still using SOs. Honestly, unless you are using Set IOs, I don't think the difference is that huge in magnitude.
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I specifically said "drop" :/ I like IO's too but between the recipe and ingredients, |
Originally Posted by Durakken
I view them as a waste of money
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it's harder to buy if it doesn't drop, and is harder to get purely through drops.
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That's a waste of money ^.^ Should sell all those... though it's irrelevant once you get a higher level character cuz you have more than enough money for that those IOs
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Originally Posted by Twilightdusk
I specifically said "drop" :/ I like IO's too but between the recipe and ingredients,
it's harder to buy if it doesn't drop, and is harder to get purely through drops. |
Huh, I guess you're right. Next time I get a level 15 DO drop I'll sell it instead of replace a similar, weaker enhancement that's getting close to fading. Thanks for your brilliant advice *eyeroll*
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Sarcasm is not needed|
Originally Posted by Twilightdusk
Huh, I guess you're right. Next time I get a level 15 DO drop I'll sell it instead of replace a similar, weaker enhancement that's getting close to fading. Thanks for your brilliant advice *eyeroll*
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Enhancements don't make a difference much below lvl 15 (even at lvl 15 they don't make much difference) so using enhancements that you can sell is wasting the money you could get via selling them and means you'll have less inf for getting the IOs later... it doesn't seem like a lot but it is >.>
I prefer getting the money for future IOs and not bothering with changing enhancements all the time. It's not the only way, but i think it's better, if I didn't I wouldn't do it myself.
I think the 'origin selection screen' in the character generator needs a bit of an overhaul. The hero/villain/praetorian buttons are a bit subtle and I sometimes forget to select one. I think there should be three buttons "hero", "villain" or "praetorian", an each one should tell you something about the setting (Paragon City, the Rogue Islands, Praetoria) and the possible alignments available there.
I think the selection of an origin should wait until the very end, right before registration, but after costume and power customization. I don't tend to think of my origin first -- often I jump straight to powers or costumes before I've settled on a definite concept yet. Choosing an origin doesn't help me to decide on a concept the way choosing powers does, and i think power selection should come first.
Finally, I think the number of origins needs to be expanded. Perhaps not "needs", but it would be nice just for purposes of character-selection. The in-game behind-the-scenes origins could remain the same, but I think a player should have more choices to choose from.
My list would split each of the current origins into two:
Accident, Alien, Artifact, Creature, Experiment, Gadget, Inherent, Mystical, Psychic, Training, and Tech Suit.
Accident -- you got your powers in an accident that can't be replicated or do not know exactly how you got your powers
Artifact -- the superhuman abiltiies you have are not yours, but rather imbued on you by possession of a magical artifact, weapon, or sacred object.
Alien - your powers are no big deal where you are from but here they seem strangely fantastical
Creature - you are simply not human and therefore have non-human or even super-human abilities
Experiment - you acquired your powers through a procedure that was specifically and purposefully done to you
Gadget - you have cybernetics, gauntlets, a utility belt, a high-tech weapon, or some other tech items that grant you abilities
Inherent - you were born different from others and do not know why. Perhaps you were cosmically blessed or represent a natural evolutionary state
Mystic - you have been learned the art of magical spells, gifted with a divine legacy, or somehow acquired magical power
Psychic - your mind is more developed than others and you can tap into powerful abiltiies of the human brain
Training - you are an otherwise normal person but have honed your body and talents to superhuman levels
Tech Suit - your abilities are not your own, but come from a powered environment suit or armor that expands your abilities beyond the human norm
In-game, these would correspond with the existing origins as follows:
Magic (Artifact and Mystic)
Natural (Training and Psychic)
Technology (Gadget and Tech Suit)
Science (Accident and Procedure)
Mutant (Creature and Inherent)
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