Cry you a river? Seriously?
So it takes a hero 4 days to become a villain. Then you do the mission, Then another 4 days to go back to hero.
Who cares that villains were not able to change their patron. That has changed now and is Moot.
Your argument is that Heroes cant have Heroic patron power pools because we dont need to do an arc to do STF?
You know what, Yes heroes should have to do an arc before doing the STF. Now what? That would make it fair.
The Point I was trying to make is, A hero should not need to spend 8 days to get a power that it takes a villain an hour to get. (yes i know it is only 4 days to be villain from a hero, but if i wanted to stay villain, i would have made them a villain to begin with)
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VEATs still have to start as villains and go through 20 levels their side before they can play tips and change sides. I don't have a problem with that, it's easy enough to reconcile that they've changed their ways and 'seen the light' after being so involved in Arachnos and the Rogue Isles. |
Originally Posted by Taveena
Yes, we can switch sides to do it.
Four days to unlock something Villains can do in an hour. This isn't balanced, this is just... stupid. Give us functional equivalents or SOMETHING - and anyone complaining about heroes having arachnos maces or whatever... What about Heroic Crab Spiders and Bane Spiders? We've been subverting the hell out of that since Going Rogue! C'mon, guys.  |
But just giving Heroes access to the villain power pools out of the blue is just absurd to me. Why can I get the power to summon a Fortunata? because someone didn't want to turn villain to unlock powers.
I'd rather see gated Hero pools. Let the Ancillary Pools be 'neutral', and each side has their own patrons they can unlock pools for. Though I'd rather they be unique instead of just copies over from the villain pools. So, like Sister Psyche has a Psychic related pool, Back Alley Brawler gives a super strength pool, Chimera a 'trap' pool' etc.
Having Hero equivalents to Villains is a good thing, but no matter how you do it it either requires a lot of time on Devs part or isn't equitable to players.
If you make all new arcs for Heros and/or powers that is time that can't be spent on something else. As has been pointed out if you add 4 more pools to Heros who already have twice as many pools Villains won't be pleased, unless Devs spend time on another whole round of rebalancing.
So as it stands Heros get more Pools but Villains have some unique ones. That is reasonably equitable to my eye. Any changes without lots of development time risk making it more inequitable rather than less.
Personally I think you should have to do EACH Patrons arc before you are able to access their powers and putting the same restriction on Heros with new Patrons would be fine too. It puts an additional level of achiement on them and prevents everyone from always doing "the easy one". But doing that would be most of if not an entire issue. That is a LOT of powers to mess with per AT.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
I don't see why giving Heros patron pools would require them to use every member of the Freedom Phalanx. Just match it 4 for 4, tada, no gripes except from the people that want it all unlocked for everything or the folks on the opposite side that get envious.
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You do know that villains can access APPs now, right (other than VEATs)? Have been able to since Going Rogue.
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Originally Posted by Ultra_Violence
Having Hero equivalents to Villains is a good thing, but no matter how you do it it either requires a lot of time on Devs part or isn't equitable to players.
If you make all new arcs for Heros and/or powers that is time that can't be spent on something else. As has been pointed out if you add 4 more pools to Heros who already have twice as many pools Villains won't be pleased, unless Devs spend time on another whole round of rebalancing. |
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Exactly! Right now Villains get 8 epic power pools, compared to hero's four. Yes, a hero could switch sides to do it, but why are we doing something they get for free? Yes, Arachnos Soldiers and Widows can change sides with effort. So can Warshades and Peacebringers. That, at least, is equivilent.|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
You do know that villains can access APPs now, right (other than VEATs)? Have been able to since Going Rogue.
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Fine, make the Statesman task force require doing the Heroic Patron arcs. That works fine!
Hey. Look at that. Problem solved.
My vote is for what is functionally /exactly the same/ as the Villain power pools. Maybe it'll look different. But what I want here is faction balance.
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Originally Posted by Taveena
But what I want here is faction balance.
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You obviously don't know the history of these words.
You say you want Faction balance, then go on and on about the Patron Pools.
There are a lot of factional balance problems on Villain side, specifically some glaring content gaps pre 40. Maybe once those get addressed we can deal with the post 40 ones eh?
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im all for hero patron pools, and i like the one's suggested with numina, woodsman, etc. as reasonable counterparts. but this ^ lol i wouldnt exactly say "for free" since, in order to gain access to these pools, anybody has to make the effort with their character. it is not free. 1: get to the appropriate level to unlock the arc. but everybody has to do this so it is a null point 2: be a villain [which includes a lot less content and teaming potential]. i'd say that being redside is already a slight sacrifice with lots of opportunities in the game and the patron pools are part of the reward to balance it out.|
Originally Posted by Taveena
Yes, a hero could switch sides to do it, but why are we doing something they get for free?
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it is not impossible for a Hero to get a Villain Patron pool, but it is a long arduous task. what is a week of missions really? if you want to permanently unlock the specific pools that are thematically villainous and tide heavily to in game lore.
blah whatever, i'm just saying that it DOES make sense to me and it IS reasonable. waaah my hero is good why does he have to be bad just to unlock extra pools? BECAUSE they are VILLAIN pools rewarded by making pledges to the patrons. thematic. reasons. still, some hero patron pools would be nice and make lots of sense because of those same reasons and you have my vote.
.but i do think it is balanced as is. being a villain is not as easy as being a hero. the patron pools are part of the rewards and effort to balance that out and they are worth taking your hero all the way through the alignment system.
eep. /end rant.
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Well, that's the thing. The APPs are applicable to any alignment - fire isn't Good or Bad. An arachnos widow? Kinda more polarising. Not only is it forcing us to spend 8 days (if a hero) doing this, but we're also being locked into what is distinctly themed as VILLAINOUS powers for the sake of gameplay! Heroic PPPs would solve that rather well.
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Originally Posted by daveyj3
blah whatever, i'm just saying that it DOES make sense to me and it IS reasonable. waaah my hero is good why does he have to be bad just to unlock extra pools? BECAUSE they are VILLAIN pools rewarded by making pledges to the patrons. thematic. reasons. still, some hero patron pools would be nice and make lots of sense because of those same reasons and you have my vote.
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I DON'T want hero equivilents of villain. I want them to be unique to the signature heroes. [Hero unique] [global epics] [villain unique] They might have similarities, but be mostly different.
Again, DON'T copy, paste, and reskin villain epics. that would be stupid. If you want a "goodie too shoes" toon to have a villain epic, then RP you're going under cover to discover an evil plot and came back with this new knowledge. Same applies the other way.
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Originally Posted by Twigman
I DON'T want hero equivilents of villain. I want them to be unique to the signature heroes. [Hero unique] [global epics] [villain unique] They might have similarities, but be mostly different.
Again, DON'T copy, paste, and reskin villain epics. that would be stupid. If you want a "goodie too shoes" toon to have a villain epic, then RP you're going under cover to discover an evil plot and came back with this new knowledge. Same applies the other way. |
I have to agree with this. I firmly believe that we need Heroic Patron Power Pools, but they should each be unique to the heroes that author them. They should not be clones of the villain pools. I don't object to there being more than four, in fact I would be even happier if most of the Freedom Phalanx offered pools. I would even like to see more villains offering them too. Why not Dr Aeon for example? For that matter, the same should apply to Praetorian Patrons when we eventually reach level 40-50 content there! Granted they might not be too different than their Primal counterparts, but they should still each have something unique to offer. We could even push it further at some point in the future to feature Rogue & Vigilante Patron Power Pools! (Perhaps from yet to be introduced characters.)
Honestly I don't particularly want Hero PPPs. If the devs are going to add more Epic power pools I'd much rather have new APPs than another set of PPPs. The PPPs all have a certain thematic bias and while it's reasonably easy to ignore that it is still slightly immersion breaking to see Scirocco emblem pop up on my hero whenever he activates his "Electric Defense Grid".
I'm all for making it simpler for characters (of any alignment) to access the Patron Pools but in terms of new pools I'd much rather see new pools created without a thematic bias so that it's easier to interpret them as whatever we want. To that end I'd much rather see an expansion of the APPs than new PPPs or any type.
Ideally I'd like to see a situation where every AT has access to an APP for each Element type it has access to plus a few options with weapons or minimal graphics for use with the more 'natural" sets.
I just had an epiphany.
Options 1: Why not have a hero arch that sends you to capture one of the villains, in exchange for their release, they are willing to teach you the basics of thier power set so you can more easily defeat their minions.
Option 2: The story arch could be as you're hunting them you find training material, the last mision you are at their traing center waiting till thier alone to attack. you fight they escape, but you found the last information needed to unlock the PPPs
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Uh, that sounds more like Villainside content. |
Originally Posted by Twigman
I just had an epiphany.
Options 1: Why not have a hero arch that sends you to capture one of the villains, in exchange for their release, they are willing to teach you the basics of thier power set so you can more easily defeat their minions. Option 2: The story arch could be as you're hunting them you find training material, the last mision you are at their traing center waiting till thier alone to attack. you fight they escape, but you found the last information needed to unlock the PPPs |
"What? An offer of power in exchange for letting a villain go? SURE. I love me some blastiness, pow pow, oh he robbed a bank again? Well now I have more pow pow to stop him!"
Simple solution that plays off of current story: Whoever is killed in the Signature Story Arc, the other Phalanx members believe this could have been prevented if they had spent more time sharing their knowledge with Supers in training, so several volunteer to offer training. Four step forward and offer arcs as a test, those that pass the test get access to the Hero pools.
Obviously who offers what is dependent on who is still alive post Who Will Die, but again, easy to theme things per hero.
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FYI: you don't quote the whole post if you're only going to comment on ONE part of it. so, kindly comment on "Options 2" since you sited it.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Uh, that sounds more like Villainside content.
"What? An offer of power in exchange for letting a villain go? SURE. I love me some blastiness, pow pow, oh he robbed a bank again? Well now I have more pow pow to stop him!" |
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Simple solution that plays off of current story: Whoever is killed in the Signature Story Arc, the other Phalanx members believe this could have been prevented if they had spent more time sharing their knowledge with Supers in training, so several volunteer to offer training. Four step forward and offer arcs as a test, those that pass the test get access to the Hero pools.
Obviously who offers what is dependent on who is still alive post Who Will Die, but again, easy to theme things per hero. |
We already established that heroes don't have time to train. BUT, my idea for positron to have made an AE training mission arch based on the 4 sig heroes would meet the need.
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Ok, it still sounds like villainside content. "Hey I found all the bad guys super secret schematics. Why don't *I* just use it?" The heroic thing would be to either A) destroy it or B) Lock it up to prevent misuse. |
Originally Posted by Twigman
FYI: you don't quote the whole post if you're only going to comment on ONE part of it. so, kindly comment on "Options 2" since you sited it.
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and FYI: It's 'cited'.
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| We already established that heroes don't have time to train. BUT, my idea for positron to have made an AE training mission arch based on the 4 sig heroes would meet the need. |
There's nothing villainous about using power you discovered ... unless it makes you or requires you to be or do evil things.
I'll be vary surprised if they kill of one of the 4 main sig heroes that the power pools would be based on. manticor, sister psy, synapse, positron. All the others are just extra and wouldn't have powers based on them.
Well, that's kind of assuming. They could easily pick any of the signature heroes.
We know Statesman wouldn't be used, since he's Recluse's counterpart (and vice versa). And the rest would be pretty easy to come up with a particular power/theme for them to mold a pool from:
Sister Pscyhe - Psychic Mastery or Mind Mastery etc
Citadel - Energy something
Manticore - Traps or Archery
Synapse - Speed/Electric Mastery or something
Positron - Radiation Mastery
Numina - Something similar to Soul mastery or something healing related
Back Alley Brawler - 'Strength Mastery' or 'Body mastery'
Then again there's nothing that says the Phallanx (and BAB) *have* to be the ones, the Vindicators are considered Signature Heroes too. But Phallanx seems more appropriate.
I'd rather they expand open up ALL pools to everyone regardless of side and do away with needing an arc open the patrons.
Less work.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I don't mind that patron pools are desireable; I don't even mind that they're a lot of work to get if you want them, because it rewards the effort with what might be a mildly improved level of power. I don't mind the idea that you don't want that work to be going evil, then doing a villain arc and coming back.
I do mind if the total work involved in getting a hero patron is easier and faster than going villain and coming back. I do mind if the powers are different because then you're opening up the exact same problem for villains, and it becomes a 'screw you, I got mine' concern.
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If it's different there will still be people that will want to play Hero then go villain to get specific pools like Mu or Soul mastery, just like villains would have to go hero to get specific pools like "Psyche's" or "Positron's". If they're exactly the same for both sides then there's no reason to switch and it still would make no sense for Heroes to just be able to summon up Arachnos minions or use the Arachnos mace.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I do mind if the total work involved in getting a hero patron is easier and faster than going villain and coming back. I do mind if the powers are different because then you're opening up the exact same problem for villains, and it becomes a 'screw you, I got mine' concern. |
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But then they'd still just be gated behind Villainside arcs and having to serve the Patrons. Even if turning hero changed the arachnos minions to say Longbow, you're still going evil to gain power.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Make 'em change based on what alignment you are.
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I think there should be no difference at all in the effects of the powers, but there is a visual difference and name difference. Maybe a few very minor changes - have the Arachnos Widow replaced with a Longbow Spines Scrapper, and so on.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I don't mind that patron pools are desireable; I don't even mind that they're a lot of work to get if you want them, because it rewards the effort with what might be a mildly improved level of power. I don't mind the idea that you don't want that work to be going evil, then doing a villain arc and coming back.
I do mind if the total work involved in getting a hero patron is easier and faster than going villain and coming back. I do mind if the powers are different because then you're opening up the exact same problem for villains, and it becomes a 'screw you, I got mine' concern. |
Exact same powers, different names, different visuals. Automatically change when switching sides. No balance issues, both heroes and villains have 4 epic power pools as soon as they hit 35 and another 4 upon completing a patron arc!
Four days to unlock something Villains can do in an hour. This isn't balanced, this is just... stupid. Give us functional equivalents or SOMETHING - and anyone complaining about heroes having arachnos maces or whatever... What about Heroic Crab Spiders and Bane Spiders? We've been subverting the hell out of that since Going Rogue! C'mon, guys.