City of Heroes is the World Wrestling Federation of Superhero MMOs
By
3dent,
Posted on: 2011-10-26 18:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You keep reducing things to false binary choices. If we didn't take all of our primary you suggest we had two possibilities: take all of our primary, or take a different power pool to replace fitness. But in fact the choice is between all the powers left available, period, for all three or four power choices that were freed when inherent fitness became available (for players that took stamina).|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I think you're proving my point, UberGuy. The only disagreement left is whether or not everyone else with the same powersets chose the same power pools for their characters. You say no, but I believe most of them would have. There aren't many good alternatives.
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You also seem to be implying this is something that is mostly a matter of opinion or judgment, and can't be resolved objectively through example, but it can. If the options have dropped, and not just slightly but in your expressed opinion precipitously, that should be obvious to see in actual builds which would experience the sort of funneling that is a necessary consequence of your theory. But I've posted builds that specifically contradict all of the suppositions you've made that are consistent with your theory. Specialization is still possible. Builds aren't converging on generalists. Builds still have distinct non-overlapping tactical options. Powers can be more useful in some builds than others, so people have different valuations of them. Players can still run out of power choices that would add valid additional value to their builds, which means they are not saturated with powers or slots.
Its becoming increasingly unlikely that I just happen to be an incredibly odd edge case that I can and do construct builds that your theory of build diversity claims is not generally possible. And its important to note that proving diversity doesn't exist requires just one counter-example. But proving it does exist requires only one positive example. Because things either exist or they don't. If they don't, no examples of it are possible. If they do, just one example proves they do.
And I have to go back to the fact that the logical argument that since inherent fitness eliminates a possible build choice then the total number of options must have gone down is flawed, because with inherent fitness options become available that didn't exist before. Conversely, the numerical argument is pretty straight forward and doesn't have that sort of flaw: for diversity to have gone down, the people who had fitness must have taken the exact same powers to a higher degree than people had fitness in the first place. So if 75% of players had fitness, more than 75% of the fitness players must have traded fitness for the exact same three powers, given the same powerset combination (for the players that took three fitness powers, the argument extends to players who took a different number). That seems unlikely if the ratio of players that took fitness was very high like the devs implied it was. Not the least of which is because when I respeced into inherent fitness, I was presented with multiple options on reusing those choices. The probability that even *I* would choose the same choices 75% of the time given the same situation seems unlikely: so much of it depended on what I was interested in doing at the time. The moment I decide to respec changes everything.
If it was true that basically everyone agrees on what is a good idea and not a good idea, and when presented with a choice we all tend to choose the same thing because we all agree what is a good choice and a bad choice, what is useful and not useful, then its possible we could have all respeced into inherent fitness and taken the same powers. But if that were true, we'd all have been playing roughly the same builds to start with. Its asking a lot to claim that we all valued things differently before inherent fitness and had a wide range of builds, but when inherent fitness came along we all started thinking alike and deciding which primary and secondary powers were really useful, and which power pools were the obvious choices. The odds of that happening seem astronomically low.
Having more options is not a bad idea, but proving it by claiming we have catastrophically low levels of build options today, and moreover that inherent fitness is the primary culprit, just isn't supported by the facts when it comes to building. An individual person, with a particular perspective on what they want and don't want, might find themselves restricted by their preferences. But the system itself isn't restricted in options.
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Yeah. To argue on the one hand that people gravitate to the same selection of less-generally-attractive-than-Stamina pool powers now, and dismiss on the other hand that they gravitated to Stamina before, is logically inconsistent. Of the available non-Fitness pool powers, there are definitely a few that are more attractive than the rest, but none so much more attractive in the general case than Stamina used to be. So on average, diversity goes up by default.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Conversely, the numerical argument is pretty straight forward and doesn't have that sort of flaw: for diversity to have gone down, the people who had fitness must have taken the exact same powers to a higher degree than people had fitness in the first place. So if 75% of players had fitness, more than 75% of the fitness players must have traded fitness for the exact same three powers, given the same powerset combination (for the players that took three fitness powers, the argument extends to players who took a different number). That seems unlikely if the ratio of players that took fitness was very high like the devs implied it was.
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Also, as Uberguy implied, even if we take it as given that builds of the same AT/sets are more similar than they used to be, having people take more of their Primary/Secondary powers means that each AT/set is more distinct from others. That is especially true as you're leveling up: before Issue 19, if you were in a level 20 team consisting of a Tanker, a Defender, and a Controller, there was a significant chance that all three of those characters shared 2 or 3 of their 12 discretionary powers, because they all wanted Fitness. Nowadays, the Tanker gets taunt and defenses sooner; the Defender gets her buffs sooner; and the Controller gets his controls sooner. Each is more distinctively itself at least up through the mid-30s.
It's all well and good to look at power distribution on paper at level 50, but in actual practice I find there's more diversity not just in the builds I'm prone to design myself; there's a much clearer dividing line throughout the level range among the various builds I encounter on teams.
And your last point is worth emphasizing, too. If there has been a decrease in build diversity lately, inherent Fitness ain't the cause. If there can be said to be a problem, it's Incarnate powers, and those are only relevant for a small subset of the builds in the game. Fittingly enough, the iTrials that lead to Incarnate powers also arguably diminish the effective (or noticeable) diversity of ATs and builds, simply because they require so many players.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Different players want different things for their characters. Some will choose power pools to min/max, some will try to fit a power concept, and some will seek to make a role-playing concept. I'm saying there should be power pools that encourage all of those types of gameplay. If they are 'inferior' to combat jumping than the min/maxers will take combat jumping...but concept players will take inferior options if it matches their concept. Tons of players will take a weak ice shield, or a fire resistance aura, or a body armor passive in a gadget pool, if they fit their characters..|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
If those new options are superior to Combat Jumping, everyone will take them. If they are inferior, no one will take them. And if they are incomparable, some will take them and some won't.
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| Also, if the only person who has a problem is you, maybe the problem isn't with the game. |
Look around on this forum and you'll see that I'm obviously not the only one with complaints.
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No, it is not. Stamina was such a strong draw that it effectively reduced the number of available power slots by three. Now that Stamina is inherent, players have the ability to take more powers...but only from a small pool of choices. This causes large populations of characters to share power choices. Diversity goes down. The concept is very simple.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Yeah. To argue on the one hand that people gravitate to the same selection of less-generally-attractive-than-Stamina pool powers now, and dismiss on the other hand that they gravitated to Stamina before, is logically inconsistent.
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| Also, as Uberguy implied, even if we take it as given that builds of the same AT/sets are more similar than they used to be, having people take more of their Primary/Secondary powers means that each AT/set is more distinct from others. That is especially true as you're leveling up: before Issue 19, if you were in a level 20 team consisting of a Tanker, a Defender, and a Controller, there was a significant chance that all three of those characters shared 2 or 3 of their 12 discretionary powers, because they all wanted Fitness. Nowadays, the Tanker gets taunt and defenses sooner; the Defender gets her buffs sooner; and the Controller gets his controls sooner. Each is more distinctively itself at least up through the mid-30s. |
These power picks are usually made by level 30, in my experience -- the 30s and 40s are filled by the top tier AT powers and then the epics. There's at least one gap in character building at level 30 where you cannot pick an AT power (unless you've delayed one), and most ATs have questionable powers that can be skipped in their teens and 20s. There may be a few power slots left open in the 40s, but overall I think most people have gotten into their power pools by level 30. And most of their pool picks are the same as everyone elses' in their AT.
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| And your last point is worth emphasizing, too. If there has been a decrease in build diversity lately, inherent Fitness ain't the cause. If there can be said to be a problem, it's Incarnate powers, and those are only relevant for a small subset of the builds in the game. Fittingly enough, the iTrials that lead to Incarnate powers also arguably diminish the effective (or noticeable) diversity of ATs and builds, simply because they require so many players. |
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Seems like Inventions would be a contributor to this homogenization of characters as well.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Yep, the incarnate powers are another symptom of the problem that I've been ranting about. The overall trend is toward giving the players more gimmicks and less substance, where 'gimmicks' are defined as meaningless choices and 'substance' defined as gameplay. Both inherent stamina and the incarnate system are symptoms of that problem.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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The choice is not binary, but it's pretty sparse. There are only a few options available. That's my point -- we need more options to fill our power slots.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You keep reducing things to false binary choices. If we didn't take all of our primary you suggest we had two possibilities: take all of our primary, or take a different power pool to replace fitness. But in fact the choice is between all the powers left available, period, for all three or four power choices that were freed when inherent fitness became available (for players that took stamina).
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If you're not taking Fitness, Leadership is the natural next option. A second travel power is a third option. After that...well, concept characters might go anywhere, but most players interested in performance shun the Concealment and Presence pools. Medicine might be a valid fourth option but it's terrible unslotted, so it requires reworking of the primary and secondary. That's about it. Four, maybe five options max, and most players will choose the same one or two.
In contrast, before inherent stamina players had to make sacrifices in order to fit power pools into their design. This made the pool powers much rarer. Not everyone had Fitness or Leadership or Combat Jumping. Secondary travel powers was almost unheard of, outside of PvP. Now nearly everybody has at least one and often more of those pools.
It was not the choice between Stamina and no stamina that made builds unique. It was the choice of making sacrifices to take the other power pools. Some people made that choice, some didn't. Now, no sacrifices are necessary -- everyone has all the AT powers they want and all the power pools they want, and they're a lot more similar now than they were before.
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| You also seem to be implying this is something that is mostly a matter of opinion or judgment, and can't be resolved objectively through example, but it can. If the options have dropped, and not just slightly but in your expressed opinion precipitously, that should be obvious to see in actual builds which would experience the sort of funneling that is a necessary consequence of your theory. But I've posted builds that specifically contradict all of the suppositions you've made that are consistent with your theory. |
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| Its becoming increasingly unlikely that I just happen to be an incredibly odd edge case |
You are widely known as the most methodical and knowledgeable player in the game, and the only one who, it is rumored, has the developers on speed dial. You're not going to get anywhere by claiming to be an Everyman. Just so you realize that. I'll frankly admit that I'm not typical either, although probably not as far out on the edge as you. I've quit this game once due to decisions I disagreed with (ED). I lost my SG in the process, and when I returned I never regained a pool of friends to help me enjoy the game. So I'm more concerned with the gameplay available than all the social constructs (like -- feh -- costume pieces) that the developers keep rolling out. That makes me unusual compared to most players.
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| And its important to note that proving diversity doesn't exist requires just one counter-example. But proving it does exist requires only one positive example. Because things either exist or they don't. If they don't, no examples of it are possible. If they do, just one example proves they do. |
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Before @ level 20: Most everyone had 12 discretionary power picks, of which 3 were Fitness.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
No, it is not. Stamina was such a strong draw that it effectively reduced the number of available power slots by three. Now that Stamina is inherent, players have the ability to take more powers...but only from a small pool of choices. This causes large populations of characters to share power choices. Diversity goes down. The concept is very simple.
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After @ level 20: Everyone has 12 discretionary power picks, of which 1-3 might be any of the following -- Hasten, Combat Jumping, Hover, Travel (which could be Fly, Super Jump, Teleport, Speed), Recall Friend, Boxing/Kick/Tough/Weave, Manuevers/Assault/Tactics/Vengeance, Aid Other/Aid Self ...
The problem here is that we're looking at this from different angles: You're emphasizing the numerical diversity in powers on a given character -- in other words, comparing 3/12 before to 4/16 now. By that standard, diversity cannot have increased, and probably has decreased, because the proportion of powers-in-common is, at best, the same.
I'm emphasizing the practical, effective difference in how each character plays based on its power selection. Toss aside Fitness (which is now inherent, and thus now universally shared) for a second, and how likely is it that any given character has the same number of its discretionary powers -- AKA the powers they use -- in common? It's less likely, extremely less likely. Characters will thus play more distinctively than they did before.
Your concept might be simple, but it's abstract to the point of irrelevance.
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| These power picks ['best' pool powers] are usually made by level 30, in my experience -- the 30s and 40s are filled by the top tier AT powers and then the epics. There's at least one gap in character building at level 30 where you cannot pick an AT power (unless you've delayed one), and most ATs have questionable powers that can be skipped in their teens and 20s. There may be a few power slots left open in the 40s, but overall I think most people have gotten into their power pools by level 30. And most of their pool picks are the same as everyone elses' in their AT. |
Now, I spend more of my initial picks on Primary/Secondary powers as I level up. To the extent that I dip into pool powers at all by level 30, it's usually the typical two from a Travel pool. Then usually (once I've got a feel for which Primary/Secondary powers I can skip) I twink my alts when they hit 30ish with IOs and respec into a build that can benefit more from expensive pool toggles and/or Hasten.
All of that said, you're handwaving just how many so-called desirable pool powers there are. Looking at the list above, it's hard to fathom how anyone could suggest that even dedicated min/maxers are going to end up with a consistently uniform selection of pool powers, even on builds with analogous ATs/sets. Further, even if we accept your premise that people take the same power pools across the board, you'd almost need to twink to take a significant number of them by level 30.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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No, it did not support you theory, as you postulated that the both became more generlized, which was totally wrong. Arcarnaville's build became more of a close range specialist and my build became more of a long range specialist, not generalist's like you insist. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I'm postulating that characters are more similar to each other than they were before, and that's something we can only measure by comparing two characters. Seeing your build alone doesn't help (and I can't see them from work, anyway). The one comparison that we did supported my theory.
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As I said, you are only seeing what you want to see whether it's there or not. You have you're veiws as to what are valuable powers in the pools and AT sets, as has already been proven, other players place different values on the pools and powers avalible than you do. That is another flaw in your logic, that given 3 more power picks everyone will take from that same limited pool of what you concider "useful powers" .
Yes, min/maxers will all gravitate to the same few powers, was true before inherant fitness as it is true now, but those players are not the majority of the player base. players that build to theme or concept wikk still take powers outside of what you would concider the logical choice, just as much as they did before. Even if you add in 5 new pools, the min/max minority will still all end up taking the same powers.
You say you aren't a fringe case yet still insist the new cossie options are useless fluff, which is also counter you all the people complaining in the new cossie option threads that there aren't enough in them as well as all the people in the costume request thread. All you keep demonstrating is that you have very narrow views as you what is good and what is bad, and people time and time again show how much they disagree which your definition of what is good and bad and the only argument you can come up with is they are fringe cases and not representitive of the player base as a whole. well tell me, what make you and your ideas more representitive of the player base?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Not as you've described diversity. You've stated that diversity of builds has decreased because the actual number of valid options has decreased. If the number of options has decreased, less options have to exist. And if an option exists, it exists, no matter how many people take it.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I disagree with this also. If you find one black swan among a thousand white ones, it doesn't mean that there's a diversity of swans. It means there are outliers. Perfect diversity would be a heterogeneous population with no build more prevalent than another. I don't think that's possible, but I worry that we're a lot closer to the bland homogeneous mean and on a trend further in that direction.
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If you're saying the same number of options exist, but less people take them, that's a completely different thing, and so far you haven't implied that is happening.
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| The choice is not binary, but it's pretty sparse. There are only a few options available. That's my point |
I think that's important, because:
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| The one comparison that we did supported my theory. |
Because of that, I think its important for you to provide concrete examples of your method of judging diversity, because in at least one case you're judging diversity by a wildly different way than I think most people do.
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As long as we're talking build diversity, I'm going to draw attention my signature and my other power pool suggestion thread.
Upon closer examination, I have a couple of powers in the Night-Owl pool that cannot be slotted at all.
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THEY ALL HAD HEALTH AND STAMINA BEFORE.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
All three of your regens and one of your brutes now have Leadership, all of your fliers have Combat Jumping, and two more of your characters (who already fly) have super speed. Yet you're not seeing a problem with lack of choice here, or with character diversity?
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There are more choices now.
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| I think you're proving my point, UberGuy. The only disagreement left is whether or not everyone else with the same powersets chose the same power pools for their characters. You say no, but I believe most of them would have. There aren't many good alternatives. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It's always weird when people talk about the pre-Inherent-Stamina days as having an amazing degree of choice in much the same way as people talk about the pre-ED days as having more choice. No, we didn't. We didn't have a choice AT ALL. There were things we were supposed to do and things we were supposed to choose. NOT doing them and NOT choosing them was a provable mistake.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
THEY ALL HAD HEALTH AND STAMINA BEFORE.
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This is no more choice than "Your money or your life!" is. It sounds like a choice when you phrase it as one, but it really isn't.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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They all have health and stamina *now*. And now they also all have Leadership and Combat Jumping.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
THEY ALL HAD HEALTH AND STAMINA BEFORE.
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Pointing out that stamina was ubiquitous before doesn't matter. It's ubiquitous now. But now that their slots were freed up, the Fighting and Leadership power pools are near-ubiquitous also.
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| There are more choices now. |
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| THEY ALL HAD HEALTH AND STAMINA BEFORE. |
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Your build gained Fighting and a second travel power, and Arcana's build...gained Fighting and a second travel power. Your specialties weren't lost (although they could have been if you had chosen to take more AT powers), but your characters became much more similar.|
Originally Posted by St_Angelius
No, it did not support you theory, as you postulated that the both became more generlized, which was totally wrong. Arcarnaville's build became more of a close range specialist and my build became more of a long range specialist, not generalist's like you insist.
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Maybe a comic book analogy would help. Banshee was a long-range specialist sonic blaster who can fly. Psylocke was a short-range blapper with no travel powers. (You could argue she's a scrapper with psi melee, but let's say blapper for now.)
Psylocke at one point wore a costume that gave her the ability to fly, and she learned telekinesis that allowed her more long-range attacks. She's always had good Fighting ability. Let's say that at the same time, Banshee learned to fight (and defend) with his bare hands.
Before we had two blasters, one of whom could fly and shoot at a distance and one who mostly fought at close range. Now we've got two blasters, both of whom can fly, shoot at long range, and mix it up in melee. They're still very different. They're still specialized in what they do. But they're a lot more similar now than they were before.
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| That is another flaw in your logic, that given 3 more power picks everyone will take from that same limited pool of what you concider "useful powers" . |
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| You say you aren't a fringe case yet still insist the new cossie options are useless fluff, which is also counter you all the people complaining in the new cossie option threads that there aren't enough in them as well as all the people in the costume request thread. All you keep demonstrating is that you have very narrow views as you what is good and what is bad, and people time and time again show how much they disagree which your definition of what is good and bad and the only argument you can come up with is they are fringe cases and not representitive of the player base as a whole. well tell me, what make you and your ideas more representitive of the player base? |
That's the entire point of the thread. If the game relies on flash and gimmicks, the people who want substance will leave, just as true wrestling fans left the WWF when it became all show. Can the game survive with just the players who are happy with the sparkly bits? The WWF didn't. The original poster drew an analogy between two industries where customers were lost over the lack of substance in the product.
Maybe that analogy is false; maybe people like me will leave and CoH will continue on happily as a sandbox-like button-mashing costume sim. But because I loved this game I would be remiss if I did not speak out over what I see as potential disaster on the horizon.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
They all have health and stamina *now*. And now they also all have Leadership and Combat Jumping.
Pointing out that stamina was ubiquitous before doesn't matter. It's ubiquitous now. But now that their slots were freed up, the Fighting and Leadership power pools are near-ubiquitous also. |
You claimed many times in this thread that we now have LESS diversity in builds after Fitness was made inherent. I and other posters have shown, repeatedly, that this is factually, objectively false. We all had builds who all had at least two, possibly three powers the same in every build, and now we have replaced those two/three powers with, at a bare minimum, five example powers from at least three different power pools. Replacing the exact same two powers in builds with at least fiive different powers (and in practice more because we've shown examples where we actually did take previously skipped primary/secondary powers) cannot create less diversity. If we all took the exact same two things before, and now we are choosing between at least five different things we cannot have less choice, and therefore we cannot have less diversity.
The argument we're having is not about whether we could not have more diversity. It is about your claim that we now have less. "Near ubiquitous" replacing "ubiquitous" is not less diverse, it is more. The claim that going from everyone having the same exact two powers to everyone choosing between at least five different powers to replace them represents less choice is objectively wrong.
I swear to God, it's like you don't speak English.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The WWF - or rather the WWE after their initials were claimed by the World Wildlife Fun - survived just fine. WCW tanked, and the WWE bought them up. TNA was purchased by Dixe Carter and then went ahead to employ people like Hulk Hogan, Eric Bichoff and a whole bunch of wrestlers a good 10-20 years past their prime, and went on to become a joke that people have actually taken offence at me for mentioning. WWE is not in any danger of competition, nor has it ever been in that serious a danger at any point.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
If the game relies on flash and gimmicks, the people who want substance will leave, just as true wrestling fans left the WWF when it became all show. Can the game survive with just the players who are happy with the sparkly bits? The WWF didn't. The original poster drew an analogy between two industries where customers were lost over the lack of substance in the product.
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If your analogy is that City of Heroes will fail like the WWE/WWF which didn't actually failed and is doing just fine, and it will fail in the face of competition like WCW which tanked and got bought up by their competition, then no, it's not a very good analogy at all. We should be so lucky as to have even a fraction of the success and popularity of the WWE, as opposed to what people like Kevin Nash, Sting and the Sand Man have become just so they can get a pay check and stay relevant. We should all be so luck if the WWE is our measuring stick, because that remains the dominant wrestling company in the Western world.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Maybe people like me will leave and CoH will continue on happily as a sandbox-like button-mashing costume sim. But because I loved this game I would be remiss if I did not speak out over what I see as potential disaster on the horizon.
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Your complaints are not new, nor are they rare. Lack of depth and lack of challenge have been constant companions of this game since its creation. What makes THIS one different?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Again wrong, the build already had SJ and SS, I gained 3 powers from fighting and repulsion bomb from the Force Mastery epic pool, as this particular toon had all 4 fitness powers I also swapped out power boost, as I found out it did not effect knockback as the power description suggested. I replaced it with boost range. Kick from fitness is a bearly used prerequisite power, as would be obvious but the single acc enhancement.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Your build gained Fighting and a second travel power, and Arcana's build...gained Fighting and a second travel power. Your specialties weren't lost (although they could have been if you had chosen to take more AT powers), but your characters became much more similar.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Before inherent stamina, St. Angelus was pretty long-range specialized, with a knockback power, few melee attacks, a snipe and no fighting pool. Arcanaville's build was more generalist, with no snipe or dedicated KB (beyond the natural KB in her attacks) and several melee attacks. (I'm unclear on whether she had the fighting pool before or not.)
After inherent stamina, St. Angelus picked up the fighting pool...and now their blaster is more of a generalist, with both range capabilities and some ability to mix it up close to the enemy. You'd be hard pressed to make a true specialist out of these powersets. |
Your claim is inherant fitness made us both near identical in powers and play style, which is patently false.
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Maybe a comic book analogy would help. Banshee was a long-range specialist sonic blaster who can fly. Psylocke was a short-range blapper with no travel powers. (You could argue she's a scrapper with psi melee, but let's say blapper for now.) Psylocke at one point wore a costume that gave her the ability to fly, and she learned telekinesis that allowed her more long-range attacks. She's always had good Fighting ability. Let's say that at the same time, Banshee learned to fight (and defend) with his bare hands. Before we had two blasters, one of whom could fly and shoot at a distance and one who mostly fought at close range. Now we've got two blasters, both of whom can fly, shoot at long range, and mix it up in melee. They're still very different. They're still specialized in what they do. But they're a lot more similar now than they were before. |
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| I'm not saying that everyone will take the exact same powers. But large fractions of the players will. They have to; there just aren't enough alternate options. |
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I'm probably not representative of the player base as it is now. I said that in this thread yesterday. I probably am on the fringe; I'm probably not the kind of player that Paragon Studios wants in their game anymore. I want substance -- as in challenging gameplay -- over flashy gimmicks like costumes and meaningless choices. That's the entire point of the thread. If the game relies on flash and gimmicks, the people who want substance will leave, just as true wrestling fans left the WWF when it became all show. Can the game survive with just the players who are happy with the sparkly bits? The WWF didn't. The original poster drew an analogy between two industries where customers were lost over the lack of substance in the product. Maybe that analogy is false; maybe people like me will leave and CoH will continue on happily as a sandbox-like button-mashing costume sim. But because I loved this game I would be remiss if I did not speak out over what I see as potential disaster on the horizon. |
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
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Final encounter in the STF Reichsman |
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Originally Posted by Commander
There have been tons of gimmicks added to CoH over the years. Mission Architect, Incarnates, Auction House, Invention System, Hami-O's, Arena, PVP, specific ways to accomplish missions/tf's/iTrials that can't be completed in any other way, Veteran Rewards, Paragon Rewards, Paragon Market, City Info Kiosks, EAT/VEAT's, Super/Villain groups, ED, MARTy, Bases, Invasions, Power/Weapon Customization, Flashbacks, Day Jobs, Multiple Builds, etc., etc., etc.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Want some new ideas?
I still feel that we need new power pools to expand character customization options. It would be great if we could link new power pool access to the completion of a TF, just like the villain Epic powersets are linked to villain plot arcs. Make a TF where the heroes need to stop someone from using some grand device, and have it so a single hero must sacrifice themselves to end the arc. "The backup controls are inside the reactor chamber", says the NPC, "Someone's going to have to go in and switch it off manually." But instead of dying, the hero survives with new access to new power pools. Players would play this over and over (since only one teammate gets their pool access per run), and it would provide character customization that's linked to the backstory (which we only have with the villain epics and the incarnate powers which are linked to the Well of Furies.) Lots of choice, lots of consequence, and all deeply immersive. Let's revive street hunting. Pick an underused zone -- I'd choose Boomtown -- and make it a faction war. Have council fighting 5th column fighting vahz fighting trolls fighting clockwork. But put in a mechanism such that if players defeat enough mobs of one group, they disappear for a week or so. If enough of the factions disappear, then one faction will 'win' the zone and start making advances on Steel Canyon. This will spawn a faction-themed giant monster and a NPC monitoring the situation who will sell faction-themed temporary powers. If you want to fight the Council's giant mechaman, or if you want to buy a temporary Vahz vomit power, then you have to help the appropriate faction win. Choices, consequences. How about new tech that can help revive any mission? It's criminal that NPC artificial intelligence has never been worked on. Put in some code to create new minion behaviors. Players know how to use the terrain to their advantage -- every now and then minions should shoot from behind boxes, gaining AoE defense. If a runner gets out of sight of the players, he should spawn an ambush and return with them shouting, "I ran and got help! Here comes the cavalry!" Create traps (visible only to those with +Per powers, including Tactics) that do nothing but raise an alarm and cause every support minion nearby to click on their force field or heal. Code some support minions -- especially incarnate level ones -- to always have their force field and buffs up, instead of waiting for the players' alpha strike. Have organized groups like Longbow and Malta use some tactics, like organized formations and focusing fire on perceived threats. When the Ballista shouts, "Focus fire on <villainname>", all the Longbow shift to that target and the player's healer better help them out. (In other words, give enemy bosses the power to taunt their minions to attack a target, which may or may not be the players' tank.) If nothing else, stop making choices for players. Twinshot's arc and the First Ward are terrible about forcing characters to follow the storyline. Instead of having fixed dialogue choices that eventually lead to the one possible mission, have actual branching mission options. You choose to help Twinshot, you go on that mission. You decide that you don't want any part of them, you go on a different mission which sucks you into the storyline a different way. Can you imagine having branched options in a mission arc that eventually lead to multiple endings for that arc? I'd play the crap out of that mission arc, and each time I'd make choices customized for my character and get that character's chosen consequences. Those are just some ideas. I'd also like to see separating of teams (a villain phases half the team into an alternate mission (really another floor of the same mission)), customized arch-enemies (the competition has this), and missions and enemies that are customized to your powers (If you have fire powers, you get selected to go on the mission 'Track down the villain who froze Perez'. If you have psi powers, you're sent to look for the sons of Ishmael. If you have a weapon (sword, bow, rifle, doesn't matter), you go to a gun or tech show and end up defending it against attacking Council. etc.) I'd like to see Day jobs have real, in-game effects on the story (commuters/storekeepers/auctioneers/doctors can get a tip about villains attacking the metro/store/auction/hospital). I want AI that uses players' tactics against them (Why do so few mobs have taunt? Why so few AoEs? Why have we never seen a mission where the villains have their own emergency medical station, where all the bad guys respawn?) I want mobs with the power to steal inspirations from players (high level Banished Pantheon content, maybe? They're all about destroying hope, right?) I want power-dampening attacks that disable the last power clicked. I want more use of the 'prison' system in missions, to put defeated characters into deathtraps that they can get out of by solving a puzzle. (Knocking down a door, like with the current prisons, is not a puzzle.) |
And yet again you call the constant boost in costume options as a useless gimmick Which is essensially saying, "there should be less costume options because they have no impact on gameplay" when the games genre is all about having distinct costumes from everyone else. It add's to the character's diversity, that you claim to be calling for more of.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I'm afraid at this point I need to explicitly ask what your definition of "more similar" is. Because you're saying that trading fitness which we both had for fighting which we both now have, assuming I stipulate to that trade in the first place, is becoming more similar.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Your build gained Fighting and a second travel power, and Arcana's build...gained Fighting and a second travel power. Your specialties weren't lost (although they could have been if you had chosen to take more AT powers), but your characters became much more similar.
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I have to ask you to directly answer the question: how does trading something we both originally had, for something else we both now have, make us more similar. To put it more pointedly, what *difference* do you think we had that we now lost, assuming your assertion about exactly how our builds changed was true. I believe its unambiguously true that if two characters trade a power or set of powers they both have, for another set of powers they both acquire identically, their builds are just as similar and just as different as before. Diversity has not budged. You seem to think that's not true, but you haven't explained how that could possibly be true.
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I did not say 'near identical'. I said there was a loss of diversity. I stand behind that.|
Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Your claim is inherant fitness made us both near identical in powers and play style, which is patently false.
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| But Banshee can already fight with his bear hands, it's only his sonic attack's that are "ranged" attacks. Psylock could also have attacked at range before, Sai are throwable weapons. The fact that they both now fly does not make them suddenly so much similar. They both still perform vastly different function in whichever X group they are now affilliated with. |
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| I could easily have taken more leadrship power with that toon, and did with another L50 blaster, I could have taken from the concealment pool, as I did with another L50 blaster, I could have taken from medicine, I could have taken from the teleport pool without adding another power, I could have taken more from the speed or leaping pools. That is all more choice than I had before there was inherant fitness. |
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| Everything you listed is just as much of a gimmick as anything Commander listed. |
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| And yet again you call the constant boost in costume options as a useless gimmick Which is essensially saying, "there should be less costume options because they have no impact on gameplay" |
I swear, you people are putting so many words in my mouth you may as well argue with a straw mannequin of me.
The loss of diversity in characters is small. I said that at the start, and I've never taken any of the extreme stands you're painting me with. But there is a small loss of diversity, and it's part of a disturbing trend. That's all I've been saying. Let's not put anything else in my mouth unless you buy me dinner first, okay?
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Not if they're different power pools. Stamina was ubiquitous and is still. Other power pools are near ubiquitous now when they weren't before. Stating that this is more diverse is either dishonest or ignorant.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
"Near ubiquitous" replacing "ubiquitous" is not less diverse, it is more.
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Try to calm down and think before you post, please.
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| I swear to God, it's like you don't speak English. |
You don't understand that people used to have at least three powers in common, but they now have at least 6 to 8 powers in common. That's a loss in character diversity across the playerbase.
Maybe you're confusing 'diversity' with 'diversity of powers in a single character'. That's not what I've been talking about. I'm talking about the population becoming more like each other. The more powers people have out of a limited set of options, the less diversity there is. When everyone can do everything, nobody will be special.
That's so simple that I'm at a loss why you can't comprehend it.
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Because you didn't trade. You added. You both originally had stamina, and you both now have stamina and fighting. You used to share 3 powers from pools in common, now you share 6-8 (I've lost track of the travel powers by this point.)|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I have to ask you to directly answer the question: how does trading something we both originally had, for something else we both now have, make us more similar.
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| To put it more pointedly, what *difference* do you think we had that we now lost, assuming your assertion about exactly how our builds changed was true. |
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| I believe its unambiguously true that if two characters trade a power or set of powers they both have, for another set of powers they both acquire identically, their builds are just as similar and just as different as before. Diversity has not budged. |
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You did specifically say:|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
The loss of diversity in characters is small. I said that at the start, and I've never taken any of the extreme stands you're painting me with. But there is a small loss of diversity, and it's part of a disturbing trend. That's all I've been saying. Let's not put anything else in my mouth unless you buy me dinner first, okay?
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Now we get inherent stamina, and we get travel powers without prerequities. The blaster has four new slots. The blaster now takes...every power. They have to. Including Boost Range. With one slot still open, we're forced to take a single pool power with no slotting. I'll be generous and say that there are 21 possible picks from the nine power pools, including three secondary travel powers, although to be realistic some of the pool powers should never be taken alone and unslotted. Our 64 options possible before have now been condensed to 21. About a third as many character design options as there were before. In *both* cases the blaster could choose to sacrifice more powers from their primary and secondary and take power pools instead. Nothing has changed in that respect, and there are no advantages to pre- or post- Stamina from that. The number of possible combinations is still very large because you can choose to sacrifice AT powers to take pool powers. But those combinations were multiplicative with the basic combinations and they haven't changed. The basic options have been reduced to about a third of what they were, and so that reduces all options by the same amount. Character design diversity is a third of what it was. |
That sort of dramatic "one third" reduction doesn't occur. And you haven't been claiming the reduction is small, but severe even in the general case:
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| More diversity since launch? Sure, I'll go along with that. But we had a peak of diversity sometime after the release of IOs. (Issue 11?) Since then characters have been given various free power slots, and that has decimated diversity in the game. |
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Actually, I can. Lets consider the alternative. When the notion of making fitness inherent in the first place came up, I suggested that was not a good idea: it eliminated the option of taking it or not taking it. The better alternative, I said, was to simply increase base recovery to reduce the impact of low endurance. Endurance problems would be partially aleviated, but players could *still* take fitness if they wanted to.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I agree. Unfortunately for you, we're not talking about a trade -- we're talking about additional powers. You can't deny that adding identical powers makes the builds more similar.
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Now, suppose the devs actually did that, much as they did for VEATs. Instead of making fitness inherent, they simply boosted base run, jump, regeneration, and recovery. In effect, that would be no different than adding powers that increased those base stats, if such a thing were possible (and it sort of is). Whether we have a power that increases a base stat or it happens invisibly makes no difference: its a distinction without difference.
So if the devs add four passive powers that increase base stats, or increase the base stats directly, everyone is changed in the same way. Builds are impacted identically. Diversity is the same in both cases, because these hypothetical passive powers don't affect the number of choices players actually have: they still have the same choices they had before, we just added something to *everyone* that does not in any way affect the power choices they have.
Similarly, the existence of inherent fitness by itself doesn't reduce diversity. In fact, because those powers can be slotted, it actually has more diversity options than my previous example.
The difference relative to what actually happened is that the actual choice to choose or not choose fitness itself disappeared with inherent fitness. It isn't the fact that everyone *has* inherent fitness that changes anything, any more than adding a passive power to everyone all by itself changes anything. Its a power, but not a power *choice*. We still have the same 24 power choices we had before.
It *is* true that we have less actual powers to choose from: in effect, four less than before. But that is four less than the approximately 82 powers we had to choose from: 18 primary and secondary powers (given a specific powerset combination) plus 6 normal power pools plus 4 travel pools (with five instead of four powers) plus at least 4 epic choices. In practical terms, with prereqs and level unlocking and the pool maximum all 82 options were not equally free choices, but the number of choices is still very high. Thousands of combinations, in fact, even following all the rules (actually, I had the bright idea to write a recursive program to count them all: it might finish running sometimes in January, so I need to optimize it a bit).
One of the big logical leaps you are consistently making is arbitrarily declaring almost all of the options that exist as being irrelevant or immaterial. Even in the face of players explaining why those options actually make sense, such as having multiple travel pools. *If* you restrict yourself to the very severe restrictions you seem to place on what constitutes a valid build, then current diversity could be very low. But that is not the fault of the game: the vast majority of the options it is presenting to players and lots of players are taking advantage of are options you simply aren't counting as valid.
Another logical leap is in assuming that most people do not take very many power pools in the first place, so the power pool cap of 4 is not important. But lots of players run into that cap, including myself, and as a result granting me inherent fitness doesn't actually reduce the number of power pools I now take. That number is still four, and therefore the number of options available to me didn't drop with inherent fitness. Possibilities that used to be impossible because they required five power pools now can be constructed with only four, because fitness no longer counts.
You're *only* counting the ways options have been removed, but not conceding that options could have been added. Given the numerically small amount of diversity lost through losing four powers out of dozens, any options that are added are important, because we're talking about counterbalancing a relatively small loss.
If you are willing to now state that the loss in diversity due to inherent fitness small, and not extreme, then that small loss is at least partially counterbalanced by the players that ran out of power pools, and now will have one more power pool option available. Whether you understand why players take more than one power pool, it does happen and there are legitimate reasons for doing so, and that small addition to the number of possible options further decreases what you now claim to be a small decrease in diversity by some difficult to estimate, but certainly non-zero value. Without knowing how large this is, its impossible to say if inherent fitness had a net increase or decrease in diversity, because both changes positive and negative are relatively low.
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(Here's something that would increase build diversity: make the last 2 powers in the Presence pool not absolutely terrible.)
Also, if the only person who has a problem is you, maybe the problem isn't with the game.
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