Secondary for Titan Weapons
By
Adamant,
Posted on: 2011-10-24 11:27 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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My fave sets are shield, super reflexes, willpower, invuln, and energy aura. Shield wont work with titan weapons. Energy aura wont let me see my character well due to the invis toggle. So that leaves invuln, SR, and WP. I will prob make a brute.
I had decided to skip Invuln since my main Street Justice character is an Invuln scrapper. I was going to lean towards super reflexes, but this thread is really making me nervous about endurance costs. Are they really that bad?
I have some Hero Merits saved so I will buy a level 20 miracle and a level 30 numina. I also have 6 kismet and gift of the ancients pairs crafted in my base and 5 or 6 pairs of whichever melee set has the 1% recovery bonus.
So basically by level 30, if I go with Super Reflexes, I could have 3-slotted stamina, 15% recovery from miracle, 10% from numina, and 2% x5, 1.5% x5, and 1% x3 from set bonuses. So 45% or so. Hopefully that would make the set playable.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
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If you go with lowest level ont he uniques, you could have 3 slotted stamina, 15% from Miracle and 10% from Numina at lvl 27!|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
My fave sets are shield, super reflexes, willpower, invuln, and energy aura. Shield wont work with titan weapons. Energy aura wont let me see my character well due to the invis toggle. So that leaves invuln, SR, and WP. I will prob make a brute.
I had decided to skip Invuln since my main Street Justice character is an Invuln scrapper. I was going to lean towards super reflexes, but this thread is really making me nervous about endurance costs. Are they really that bad? I have some Hero Merits saved so I will buy a level 20 miracle and a level 30 numina. I also have 6 kismet and gift of the ancients pairs crafted in my base and 5 or 6 pairs of whichever melee set has the 1% recovery bonus. So basically by level 30, if I go with Super Reflexes, I could have 3-slotted stamina, 15% recovery from miracle, 10% from numina, and 2% x5, 1.5% x5, and 1% x3 from set bonuses. So 45% or so. Hopefully that would make the set playable. Lewis |
Just so you know
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Going with Titan Weapons/Fiery Aura/Energy Mastery (for endurance tools... also, because TW needs no patron attacks) Brute myself.
He will be the Praetorian counterpart to my Willpower/Super Strength/Pyre Mastery Tanker.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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I like how you threw the most endurance-expensive power in on the end there and it's from your secondary. |
Originally Posted by Combat
To give you an idea of how bad the set is for endurance, I'll use a hypothetical example for a TW/Dark with no endurance reduction..
Say I use the power shatter armor to activate momentum, then use the AoE powers Sweeping Strikes, Arc of Destruction, and Whirling Smash to wipe out the small targets. I then use Follow Through to finish the hard target, but notice my health has dropped dangerously low, so I use Dark Regeneration to heal myself off of the remaining targets. Hopefully I have over 100 endurance, because in just 9.372 seconds you have used 103.8 endurance. Just using the three AoEs (not counting Defensive Sweep), you have already used 48.64 endurance, and you can do that in 4.09 seconds. Needless to say, the set can burn endurance. |
Your greater point is worthwhile.
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I was already aware. But I plan to use at least 1 extra slot in Lucky for something related to endurance, so I need to be 29 to finish out the early build. So I rounded off to 30 & just skipped mentioning the details.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
If you go with lowest level ont he uniques, you could have 3 slotted stamina, 15% from Miracle and 10% from Numina at lvl 27!
Just so you know |
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Hypothetical examples are supposed to be extreme, and simplified. I could also have just said using all the powers in a row (aka, BM->every attack), would burn 89 endurance in a little over 10 seconds, which requires no outside endurance burned to seriously hurt blue bar. But my main point with TW/Dark was that it could do more to hurt your blue bar than any other combo I've seen (maybe stone/dark could beat it, haven't run any numbers).|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I like how you threw the most endurance-expensive power in on the end there and it's from your secondary.
Your greater point is worthwhile. |
The good thing is that TW doesn't need patron or AoE attacks to help it, so you can get by with taking Power Mastery. In my opinion, an SO-build will probably be good if they slot 1-2 end reduction per attacks and slot PP/Stamina, and maybe take Cardiac. As you start making use of the higher recharge powers, I'd suggest sets like Granite, Dark, and SR make good use of +recovery, hopefully getting 15-25% and the numina/miracle uniques, along with the above. Any toon with a large amount of endurance options will probably be fine taking a different Incarnate path OR dropping Cardiac. If you use electric or energy aura and have a large amount of end reduction and +recovery you may be able to make do without Cardiac, Ageless, or Power Mastery.
I've solidified what I'm going to do, and I think these combos would be viable:
TW/Electric Scrapper, with Power Mastery, Musculature, and either rebirth or barrier for defense
TW/Fire Brute, with Power, Spiritual, and ageless (maybe rebirth if endurance isn't an issue)
TW/Dark Brute, with Power, Cardial, and ageless/barrier
TW/Elec Optimization
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They don't have to be to make your point. Your attack routine in question would still be 76 endurance and have no need whatsoever to bring Dark Regen into it. |
Originally Posted by Combat
Hypothetical examples are supposed to be extreme, and simplified.
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The other, alternative point that other posters brought up, that simply being endurance-consuming is something players learn to live with and socket around - is equally germaine I suppose.
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Titan Weapons has end consumption of epic proportions. Physical Perfection offers recovery that's only half of what Stamina gives.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I find it odd that for end management advice you'd jump to something only available at level 50, and fail to mention Physical Perfection which is available much sooner.
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Trying to fix TW's end usage with PP is like trying to stop a boat from sinking with a band-aid.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Don't forget to use Burnout right away to get Dark Regen back right away.
I think I've settled on TW/Fire brute, as well as an Inv/TW tanker. Should be fun.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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It's statements like this that get me upset.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Titan Weapons has end consumption of epic proportions. Physical Perfection offers recovery that's only half of what Stamina gives.
Trying to fix TW's end usage with PP is like trying to stop a boat from sinking with a band-aid. |
Have you even tested Titan Weapons at all?
If so... have you bothered to test it through normal play, maybe during the first 20 or so levels of play? Or did you just get an automatic level bump from 1 to 50 then go out and spam your AoE attacks without any decent enhancements?
I have spent hours testing the lower levels without a level bump, as have others, and we can attest that the set is not horrible on endurance at all. It's far better, in fact, than many sets that are currently on live.... ESPECIALLY Street Justice, which was just released.
I played WP, which didn't get QR until level 18, and never even slotted Stamina.
The set hits slow, and hard. I had more than enough time to regen my endurance, and even forgot to toggle off sprint on many occasions.
At higher levels.... yes, you have 4 AoEs. YES, THEY COST A LOT OF ENDURANCE.
All AoEs do. ANY set with that many AoEs should have endurance issues if they blow their load all at once.
So you DEAL WITH IT. The potential of having that many AoEs is glorious, and WELL WORTH THE ENDURANCE COST... which AGAIN, is NORMAL for those AoE attacks.
*gasp*
Well gee.... slot for end reduction! Get Conserve Power and use it... or the multitude of other endurance management tools. In the end game, go with Cardiac or Ageless.
I agree that Physical Perfection won't do much if that is the ONLY way you are trying to manage your endurance when spamming those AoEs. So what? It's only one tool of many.
The glorious AoE and ST damage of the set is worth it, IMHO.
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WP get QR at lvl 20.
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Originally Posted by Adamant
It's statements like this that get me upset.
Have you even tested Titan Weapons at all? If so... have you bothered to test it through normal play, maybe during the first 20 or so levels of play? Or did you just get an automatic level bump from 1 to 50 then go out and spam your AoE attacks without any decent enhancements? I have spent hours testing the lower levels without a level bump, as have others, and we can attest that the set is not horrible on endurance at all. It's far better, in fact, than many sets that are currently on live.... ESPECIALLY Street Justice, which was just released. I played WP, which didn't get QR until level 18, and never even slotted Stamina. The set hits slow, and hard. I had more than enough time to regen my endurance, and even forgot to toggle off sprint on many occasions. At higher levels.... yes, you have 4 AoEs. YES, THEY COST A LOT OF ENDURANCE. All AoEs do. ANY set with that many AoEs should have endurance issues if they blow their load all at once. So you DEAL WITH IT. The potential of having that many AoEs is glorious, and WELL WORTH THE ENDURANCE COST... which AGAIN, is NORMAL for those AoE attacks. *gasp* Well gee.... slot for end reduction! Get Conserve Power and use it... or the multitude of other endurance management tools. In the end game, go with Cardiac or Ageless. I agree that Physical Perfection won't do much if that is the ONLY way you are trying to manage your endurance when spamming those AoEs. So what? It's only one tool of many. The glorious AoE and ST damage of the set is worth it, IMHO. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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That's a funny enough question that I'll just leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by Adamant
It's statements like this that get me upset.
Have you even tested Titan Weapons at all? |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Sorry, my bad. Thanks for nitpicking.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
WP get QR at lvl 20.
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Not as funny as how many people are blowing the endurance issues WAY out of proportion.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
That's a funny enough question that I'll just leave it at that.
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Unfortunately, the devs may not see the humor and instead severely lower the capability of the set because some people are making such a big fuss about it without doing proper testing.
I have a TW/SR Scrapper over on Beta, obviously, and she doesn't really burn through as much endurance as you'd think. Three slotted Stamina and Physical Perfection from Body Mastery. Both are slotted for End Mod, and all my attacks except like, two have one slot of End Redux. Thankfully I could spare the slots, since SR isn't that slot-intensive.
Also picked up Conserve Power for those damned Mu. *shakes fist angrily*
Seven years of heroism. Seven years of friendships. Seven years of saving the world. Seven years of virtuous selflessness.
You will return, for you are the mighty City of Paragon, the City of Heroes.
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This is an extremely valid point, and I agree with you fully, the endurance issues are being blown out of proportion and if people continue to complain about it then TW will most likely be nerfed before it goes live. It is a high damage, aoe centric set, if you think that means it won't have high endurance to compensate and balance the set out then you're a bit delusional. Yes, it does need some additional endurance management (whether that means your secondary choice and/or IO slotting and/or slotting more endredux and/or incarnate choices and/or not blowing all your highest costing powers at once) but that doesnt mean the endurance is unmanageable as it is.
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Originally Posted by Adamant
Not as funny as how many people are blowing the endurance issues WAY out of proportion.
Unfortunately, the devs may not see the humor and instead severely lower the capability of the set because some people are making such a big fuss about it without doing proper testing. |
Well I've done everything else /EA so I'll probably start with TW/EA.
The massive recharge boost and solid end management will be a help. It's unfortunate that the sweep won't help at all with def, but I guess that'll be the way it is.
I'll probably also roll an ele/tw tanker for hardcapped sl res and softcapped melee def goodness.
One benefit the EA character will have (and I admit it's a relatively minor one) is that with all those AoEs, a bunch of quite obtainable sciroccos sets will seriously help in plugging the psi gap.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Just to be clear:
My intention is not to say that Titan Weapons is bad because it uses too much endurance. It is a very powerful and balanced set, in my opinion. Every point of damage pays its fair share of endurance, which is why the set is a high end set, and why it is good. However, people need to understand that it is a high endurance set and plan around it, and there hasn't been a large amount of information about the set do to the limited nature of the testing, so I am trying to spread the word, before people make a TW/DA with no endurance control and complain about it. The sets endurance drain can become manageable (I'm planning on combining it with at least one fairly intensive secondary after all), but only if you take some time to plan for it.
TW/Elec Optimization
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fair enough |
Originally Posted by Combat
Just to be clear:
My intention is not to say that Titan Weapons is bad because it uses too much endurance. It is a very powerful and balanced set, in my opinion. Every point of damage pays its fair share of endurance, which is why the set is a high end set, and why it is good. However, people need to understand that it is a high endurance set and plan around it, and there hasn't been a large amount of information about the set do to the limited nature of the testing, so I am trying to spread the word, before people make a TW/DA with no endurance control and complain about it. The sets endurance drain can become manageable (I'm planning on combining it with at least one fairly intensive secondary after all), but only if you take some time to plan for it. |
I've actually been having second thoughts about going titan/dark, but not because of unmanageable endurance, rather that I can't get my defense and recharge to levels that I'm happy with while still building for heavy recov/+end, though I may be over building on recov/+end considering I'm planning on both cardiac and ageless. So while I'm a pretty firm believer that titan/dark will work with planning I worry that something like Titan/EA would be better because of how easy it is to softcap and manage endurance that I would be able to build for significantly more recharge and potentially take a better destiny like rebirth making the build overall better becuase I wouldnt have to stretch the build as far to reach certain numbers, and then with that said I'd probably say I'd rather go /elec since it has a damage aura like dark whereas /ea does not have a damage aura (if only!), but /elec is in the same situation as /dark in which it needs alot of work to get it to softcap.
This Thread annoys me! I was going to do Titan Weapons/Elec since I heard about it. Needed an /Elec, so thought why not go Titan with it?
Fusion Hammer and Electricity - Beta Ray Baltoro Anyone?
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Actually, my plan for my live Titan Weapon character is a TW/Elec Brute!|
Originally Posted by Baltoro
This Thread annoys me! I was going to do Titan Weapons/Elec since I heard about it. Needed an /Elec, so thought why not go Titan with it?
Fusion Hammer and Electricity - Beta Ray Baltoro Anyone? |
After playing WP at higher levels, it wasn't horrible, but I really wanted a damage aura and a more active way to manage my endurance.
Electric Armor also offers other goodies, like a constant recharge bonus, capped Energy resist, immunity to energy drain, etc.
Obviously it will take more investment to become Godly in terms of defense, etc... but in normal play it should be just fine and really complement Titan Weapons well!
I'm looking forward to it.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Combat
Just to be clear:
My intention is not to say that Titan Weapons is bad because it uses too much endurance. It is a very powerful and balanced set, in my opinion. Every point of damage pays its fair share of endurance, which is why the set is a high end set, and why it is good. However, people need to understand that it is a high endurance set and plan around it, and there hasn't been a large amount of information about the set do to the limited nature of the testing, so I am trying to spread the word, before people make a TW/DA with no endurance control and complain about it. The sets endurance drain can become manageable (I'm planning on combining it with at least one fairly intensive secondary after all), but only if you take some time to plan for it. |
Don't roll a TW/DA and expect to get by with 3-Slotted Stamina and a couple of the +Recov uniques in Dark Regen
I completely agree with what was said here. Every point of damage, every 700+ Shatt-...REND Armor (Weird word...) Critical is worth the 15.64 base End Cost. The set has ridiculous numbers, and I'll take HUGE Orange Numbers with agreeably high end cost over Meh Orange Numbers with BS-Like end cost.
In the end, it's worth being able to one-shot even level Lieuts and taking 50% chunks out of Bosses.
Seven years of heroism. Seven years of friendships. Seven years of saving the world. Seven years of virtuous selflessness.
You will return, for you are the mighty City of Paragon, the City of Heroes.
There's other options, too. Like, for example, I tend to set my missions to -1 (early on) or +0/x4 for a Titan Weaponer so far. The extra enemies aren't much of a problem when you're AoEing them to death, and they'll drop more inspirations.
Willpower, of course, gets Quick Recovery; I'm using Stamina/QR/Physical Perfection together to help manage endurance on beta currently. Still have to pop some blues every so often but it's not bad at all.
Addendum: The point about slotting for End Reduction is a good one; if you're thinking to the end game, you can actually get a lot of mileage out of Musculature, instead, to make up for the lost damage slotting and make Rend Armor more effective.
Also a softcapped /EA looks pretty good also. It gives your a End Discount for a few seconds and has the ability to refill your end bar every 30 seconds or less and the +recharge to bring your attacks back quickly.