Gotta love how even the devs have fallen into the Defenders = H3@L0RZ trap...
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Then, much like all the other sets that provide a healing bonus as their 4pc in the healing category, you will see less benefit than some others.
If you dont care for that bonus, and dont want anything past it, franken slot to better effect, if you want the bonus after it, then its a necessary evil.
There are plenty of bonuses hidden within the system that are a stepping stone to other bonuses that not everyone will want, and this is just another one of them...
look at +movement bonuses, probably end up with alot of thos eon some of my characters, but I never build with those in mind, but maybe I would if I was building a Stone Armor tank.
Likewise, My traps defender won't care for this so much, as he has only 1 power that will benefit, but the 5pc bonus he will care for, since hes traps, so its swings and roundabouts really.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Anyone got the entire list of bonuses?
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The difference here is that all those other sets with Healing set bonuses? Yea those are HEALING sets that go into HEALING powers of which the previously mentioned sets do not have and would not take. This is an archetype specific set and should provide benefits useful to ALL powerset combos for that archetype. |
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
Then, much like all the other sets that provide a healing bonus as their 4pc in the healing category, you will see less benefit than some others.
If you dont care for that bonus, and dont want anything past it, franken slot to better effect, if you want the bonus after it, then its a necessary evil. There are plenty of bonuses hidden within the system that are a stepping stone to other bonuses that not everyone will want, and this is just another one of them... look at +movement bonuses, probably end up with alot of thos eon some of my characters, but I never build with those in mind, but maybe I would if I was building a Stone Armor tank. Likewise, My traps defender won't care for this so much, as he has only 1 power that will benefit, but the 5pc bonus he will care for, since hes traps, so its swings and roundabouts really. |
To give an example of what this is like... it would be as if the controller specific set had +immobilize duration only set bonus. Sure lots of controllers have an immobilize but not all do. Illusion and Mind have no immobilize powers in their primary and would see no benefit from this type of bonus (assuming their secondary and any ancillary power choices also have no immobilizes).
I personally believe the 4pc bonus needs to be changed to add something for buff and debuff effects in addition to the healing so that all power combos in the AT can benefit.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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And melee sets give immobilize resistance and pet sets give damage bonuses regardless of whether or not you've taken damage powers on your mastermind.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
The difference here is that all those other sets with Healing set bonuses? Yea those are HEALING sets that go into HEALING powers of which the previously mentioned sets do not have and would not take.
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Inherent Health?
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Immobilize resistance is a beneficial stat that affects you no matter what powers you take. (how beneficial is debatable)|
Originally Posted by Garent
And melee sets give immobilize resistance and pet sets give damage bonuses regardless of whether or not you've taken damage powers on your mastermind.
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Damage bonuses benefit you regardless of power set.Yes you have to take a power that directly deals damage to gain benefit from it but such damage dealing powers are part of every MM primary whether you take them or not.
The difference in what I am saying is that healing abilities are NOT part of every defender primary and thus this set bonus is completely useless to specific primary power sets for the AT the set is designed for. A damage bonus is not completely useless to any MM primary.
As to Inherent Health... after thinking about it I am fairly sure the 8% healing bonus wont even affect Inherent Health. Mainly because there are different bonus types... there's +healing and there's +regen. +Regen affects health... + healing does not.
Look I am not saying that some set bonuses aren't better than others, that's a given. But what I am saying is that in a set designed for a specific AT that the set bonuses should give some kind of benefit however small to that AT in regards to either a globally useful (such as resistance to affects like immobilize) or beneficial to the primary powers of the AT. An 8% healing bonus is decidedly useless to a primary power set that cannot heal.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
Personally, I'm way more concerned about what the AT sets will mean for inter-AT balance than for inter-powerset balance.
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I can understand that concern... I am merely focusing on the smaller issue of a particular set bonus than getting too caught up in the bigger issues of balance.
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Originally Posted by Garent
Personally, I'm way more concerned about what the AT sets will mean for inter-AT balance than for inter-powerset balance.
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Exactly, the benefit is debatable depending on the character.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Immobilize resistance is a beneficial stat that affects you no matter what powers you take. (how beneficial is debatable)
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Your character will get more out of immob resistance based sets than a scrapper, after a point when they are basically immune to immobs from whatever power from wahtever secondary you wish to use as an example.
But if it was a /regen scrapper, it would get alot more bang for its buck out of a healing set bonus than your defender.
Look at an empath defender and they start getting more bang for their buck out of it too.
Don't get me wrong, im not really justiying it, since my only defende rof interest is a trapper, I too have limited use of +healing, my point is, if your aiming for whats after it, its of no real concern, if you are just slotting the set for the sake of slotting the set, then yes, its a waste.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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I have to agree that having a Bonus to JUST healing isn't appropriate for a set that in a way is supposed to represent what the Archetype is.
The Controller set was created in such a way that it worked for all Controllers, it makes no sense that -any- Archetype Set should have bonuses that only work for SOME of the combinations for that Archetype.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Anyone got the entire list of bonuses?
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Originally Posted by Copypaste
Archetype IOs, coming to the store
Blaster's Wrath Bonuses: +7% accuracy; +7.5% range; +3% damage; +8.75% recharge; +3.13 range/+1.565 energy/negative damage Special: Minor fire damage Will of the Controller Bonuses: +2.5% damage; +6% immob/+6% sleep/+3.3% fear/+3 % confuse/+3% hold/+3% stun; +9% accuracy; +8.75% recharge; +3.13% ranged/+1.565% energy/negative Special: Minor psi damage Defender's Bastion Bonuses: +1.5% max HP; +7.5% range; +6% to healing powers; +3.75% ranged/+1.875 energy/negative; +8.75% recharge Special: Minor PBAOE heal Scrapper's Strike Bonuses: +1.5% max HP; +2.5 S/L/+1.25 melee; +2.5% damage; +8.75% recharge; +2.21 S/L resist Special: Boosts Critical by 20% (so 5 becomes 6, not 5 becomes 25, that'd be nuts) Might of the Tanker Bonuses: +2% damage; +1.88% max HP; +7.5% recharge; +1.89% toxic/psi resist;+2.21% S/L resist Special: Proc minor resist to all on self, lasts 20 seconds, stacks up to three times Kheldian's Grace Bonuses: +7% accuracy; +1.58% S/L resist; +3% damage; +8.75% recharge; +2.21% toxic/psi resist Special: "Form strengthening," which boosts Human resists, Nova damage, and Dwarf HP. Brute's Fury Bonuses: +1.5% max HP; +2.5% S/L/+1.25% melee;+2.5% damage;+8.75% recharge;+2.21% S/L resist Special: +10% fury generation from powers Stalker's Guile Bonuses: +7% accuracy;+2.5% S/L/+1.25% melee defense; +2.5% damage;+8.75% recharge;+2.21% S/L resist Special: 20% chance to go into Hide after striking with the power that has the proc Command of the Mastermind Bonuses: +2% damage; +1.88% max HP;+7.5% max recharge;+1.89% tox/psi resist;+2.21% S/L resist Special: +10% AOE defense for henchmen Ascendency of the Dominator Bonuses: +2.5% damage; +6% immob/+6% sleep/+3.3% fear/+3 % confuse/+3% hold/+3% stun; +9% accuracy; +8.75% recharge; +3.13% ranged/+1.565% energy/negative Special: Chance for +Damage (3/minute trigger rather than the 4/minute other stuff gets) Malice of the Corruptor Bonuses: +1.5% max HP; +7.5% range; +3% damage; +3.75% range/+1.875% energy/negative; +8.75% recharge Special: Minor negative damage Dominion of Arachnos Bonuses: +7% accuracy; +1.88% max HP; +3% damage; +8.75% recharge; +2.21% psi/toxic resist Special: The short help and long help disagree. The text says "Chance for -DMG and Toxic DoT," the long help says it gives a chance to "Terrorize the target and reduce their damage for 10 seconds," so who knows. |
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I don't think you really get my point.|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
Exactly, the benefit is debatable depending on the character.
Your character will get more out of immob resistance based sets than a scrapper, after a point when they are basically immune to immobs from whatever power from wahtever secondary you wish to use as an example. But if it was a /regen scrapper, it would get alot more bang for its buck out of a healing set bonus than your defender. Look at an empath defender and they start getting more bang for their buck out of it too. Don't get me wrong, im not really justiying it, since my only defende rof interest is a trapper, I too have limited use of +healing, my point is, if your aiming for whats after it, its of no real concern, if you are just slotting the set for the sake of slotting the set, then yes, its a waste. |
Even on a a scrapper brute or tanker... an Immobilize resistance bonus does SOMETHING. If you somehow get detoggled... that immob resistance is doing something. If you somehow get overwhelmed with immobilizes that resistance is doing something. Your AT having a power that supersedes the set bonus is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It is not the same as having a set bonus that specifically does nothing for you at all because you have no powers at all that can benefit from it.
This is not about just how useful a set bonus may or may not be.
This is about a set bonus that is part of a set designed specifically for an AT having a set bonuses that several of the primary power sets cannot benefit from.
I don't understand why there is any resistance to what I am saying here =\
The +healing set bonus provides no benefit AT ALL to several of the primaries in the AT the set is supposed to be designed for. The set bonus cannot provide a benefit AT ALL to someone who chooses those primaries with the sole exception of them taking the medicine pool, which is not related at all to what AT you picked. Again to reiterate... this is a set that's supposed to be designed for a specific AT.
Maybe some of you don't understand the difference between a set bonuses that isn't desirable (+immob resistance on an AT with status protection) and one that does NOTHING AT ALL (+healing on a force field, sonic, trick archery defender). But there you have it.
Help your fellow players who play these AT's by pointing out to the devs that this is kind of an issue and promotes a "healz0rz!" mentality about the Defender AT when several of the Defender Primaries have no healing powers at all. It really should focus more on the buffs and debuffs.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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But you do have powers that benefit from it. Rest and Health. |
Originally Posted by Kyriani
I don't think you really get my point.
Even on a a scrapper brute or tanker... an Immobilize resistance bonus does SOMETHING. If you somehow get detoggled... that immob resistance is doing something. If you somehow get overwhelmed with immobilizes that resistance is doing something. Your AT having a power that supersedes the set bonus is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It is not the same as having a set bonus that specifically does nothing for you at all because you have no powers at all that can benefit from it. |
And the benefit is about as (in)significant as a few percent of immob resist is for a scrapper. (For one, not every type of armour even can be detoggled of mez shield. The only way clicky shields go down is if player didn't click on them and/or if you faceplant. For two, they are usually too low to matter anyway. Immob lasting, say, 30 seconds, won't be much worse than an immob lasting 29 seconds, which is about all a HUGE 3.3% mez resist bonus gives you. )
EDIT: That said, I'm against the whole AT-specifi sets idea, and especially if they will go live with these set bonuses and procs. Some are obviously underpowered, some are too good to be true, and since they'd be store-bought you can't nerf them without opening a HUGE can of worms...
+healing will NOT affect +regen powers.
So it will NOT affect rest, or health.
+healing will also not affect self affecting healing powers that do more then just heal (i/e recon, dull pain, etc)
+healing only affects healing powers with no other benefit (Healing aura, heal other, etc)
So, basically, +healing will not benefit /traps (triage beacon is +regen, unaffected by +healing), /TA, /storm (O2 boost gives resistance to other affects), /poison (the heal gives +toxic resistance), /FF, /cold (frostwork is not a heal, its a +HP boost, like dull pain), and /sonic (no form of healing at all)
If you need to see what powers will benefit from +healing set bonuses, load them up in mids, and apply a +healing set bonus to them (easist way is to 4 slot numina's in health, and look at the value of the power your looking at, if the heal value goes up, its affected by +healing set bonuses)
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As was mentioned before +healing does not benefit rest or health. It benefits active heals like reconstruction, radiant aura, or heal other. Also rest and health are inherent powers everyone has and has nothing to do with the AT or a specific set deigned for a specific AT. And you still don't get my point. There is a difference between an insignificant benefit and one that DOES NOT FUNCTION for your AT/powerset even though the set is DESIGNED for your AT and all the powersets that are included in it. Consider this... a scrapper specific set with a 4pc bonus that adds +4% to your confuse duration. That's a reasonable comparison to what I am talking about. It doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by 3dent
But you do have powers that benefit from it. Rest and Health.
And the benefit is about as (in)significant as a few percent of immob resist is for a scrapper. (For one, not every type of armour even can be detoggled of mez shield. The only way clicky shields go down is if player didn't click on them and/or if you faceplant. For two, they are usually too low to matter anyway. Immob lasting, say, 30 seconds, won't be much worse than an immob lasting 29 seconds, which is about all a HUGE 3.3% mez resist bonus gives you. ) EDIT: That said, I'm against the whole AT-specifi sets idea, and especially if they will go live with these set bonuses and procs. Some are obviously underpowered, some are too good to be true, and since they'd be store-bought you can't nerf them without opening a HUGE can of worms... |
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
storm and poison's heals are affected by healing set bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Garent
storm and poison's heals are affected by healing set bonuses.
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I think we established that healing set bonuses affect healing powers though yes the previous poster was incorrect that storm's O2 Boost and the poison heal wouldn't benefit from + healing. They certainly do since they are direct heals.
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The point some people seem to be missing is that not all Defenders HAVE ANY healing powers as part of their primary or secondary set. And an IO set specifically DESIGNED for the Defender AT should have a set bonus that ALL the primaries can benefit from not just some. It's like giving a +confuse duration set bonus to a scrapper or tanker.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I have a sonic defender and a FF defender, neither of which have any heals.
The thing is I just simply don't care about missing out on one minor bonus. If you look at the rest of the sets in this game, they all have crappy set bonuses you either choose to deal with or don't.
we have already been taught to ignore useless set bonuses and I am happy to continue doing so.
If I were going to complain about any of the sets, I am going to complain about the Kheldian one. Two of the set bonuses and the set's unique ability increase resists on a class that easily runs around with capped resists? I don't even have a Kheld and that bothers me.
Now that I've seen those bonuses my main concern isn't the heal in the Defender one, it's that these "Pay to Get" items give a better Recharge bonus than any other Set Bonus in the game bar Purples.
Getting a mite sick of this new approach of PS and NCSoft. I don't mind comparable items being sold for real money, but better lewt if you pay is pretty much exactly why I lost a lot of respect for Bioware (and didn't buy their last game or it's DLC).
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I expressed the same complaint back when these things were first revealed.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Now that I've seen those bonuses my main concern isn't the heal in the Defender one, it's that these "Pay to Get" items give a better Recharge bonus than any other Set Bonus in the game bar Purples.
Getting a mite sick of this new approach of PS and NCSoft. I don't mind comparable items being sold for real money, but better lewt if you pay is pretty much exactly why I lost a lot of respect for Bioware (and didn't buy their last game or it's DLC). |
Back then the "overly optimistic" players declared it doesn't matter because those sets are free to all ViPs because we get free points each month.
It is funny how the "overly optimistic" use that same excuse for every complaint about prices. If it were true for every thread they cite that excuse, we would have to be getting a couple of thousand free points each month.
I don't mind the pay part. I like having reasons to financially support a game I enjoy. Especially when those reasons improve my enjoyment of the game product. I can understand some folks not being thrilled with the new model but if you really stop to think about it... even if you personally dont ever buy these things, if others do those funds are going to turn around and improve the game you're enjoying. This is the primary reason I have no issues with the market making money in ways like this. It will sustain the game I enjoy and give the devs resources to improve it more. I secretly hope that this influx of funds will someday translate into base love >_>
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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It's not an excuse it is a valid response.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
I expressed the same complaint back when these things were first revealed.
Back then the "overly optimistic" players declared it doesn't matter because those sets are free to all ViPs because we get free points each month. It is funny how the "overly optimistic" use that same excuse for every complaint about prices. If it were true for every thread they cite that excuse, we would have to be getting a couple of thousand free points each month. |
The problem people with your mindset have is that you translate what the "overly optimistic" players are saying into "you can get EVERYTHING you want when you want it for free" which is not what they are actually saying.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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I don't mind the new model, assuming that there is no advantage between those who play the game to earn things and those who can afford to buy the equivalents. |
Originally Posted by Kyriani
I don't mind the pay part. I like having reasons to financially support a game I enjoy. Especially when those reasons improve my enjoyment of the game product. I can understand some folks not being thrilled with the new model but if you really stop to think about it... even if you personally dont ever buy these things, if others do those funds are going to turn around and improve the game you're enjoying. This is the primary reason I have no issues with the market making money in ways like this. It will sustain the game I enjoy and give the devs resources to improve it more. I secretly hope that this influx of funds will someday translate into base love >_>
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However I do have a problem with it when those who can pay get better things than those who are active ingame doing things.
These new IOs, along with the forthcoming Attuned IOs which level up with you (and of which there are apparently lots more coming) are better than what you can earn ingame, which to me smacks of ******* out the best items for finanical gain.
NCSoft can of course do what they like with their game, but they should take a lesson from Eve Online in terms of what happens when Players decide a line has been crossed and make sure they don't accidently stumble across it.
The "not yet released" defender specific io set (coming soon to a market near you!) has a 4pc bonus that says:
Increases all of your healing powers by 8%
To which I must ask... what if you don't have any healing powers besides inherent health?
A set bonus like this seems a bit too focused to me for an AT that doesn't always have the capability of healing. Personally I'd love to see it more like the controller set bonus (that affects each type of control) but instead buff healing, buffs and debuffs. That way every type of defender can benefit from that 4pc.
Right now Force Field, Sonic and Trick arrow get virtually nothing from that set bonus unless they take the medicine pool.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30