Easier to cap: EA or WP?
By
Aneko,
Posted on: 2011-10-08 07:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
If you're using the term "cap" to mean "soft-cap defense" then it's easily going to be EA, as it will require less investment because it needs to buy less +def bonuses. If you're asking, "which is easier to make awesome?" well that's hard to say.
I can say I believe the ceiling is ultimately higher for WP because you can buy Def bonuses that would make it comparable to EA, defense-wise, with WP goodies underneath those bonuses (regen, resists, always on recovery). Doing so does not adhere to your requirement to build on the cheap though.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
EA is easier to soft-cap, especially since Energy Drain adds to your defense now.
WP will be more survivable, even when not soft-capped, until you run into high -regen. It has better resistance to the common types and RttC is toggle IH, only unlike Regen you also have some defense and resistance to stack it with.
Both will be "good enough" unless you're either unrealistic about your expectations or simply a terrible player, so pick the one you like best.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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What i mean by cap is to get them to the def or res cap or as close as I can.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
If you're using the term "cap" to mean "soft-cap defense" then it's easily going to be EA, as it will require less investment because it needs to buy less +def bonuses. If you're asking, "which is easier to make awesome?" well that's hard to say.
I can say I believe the ceiling is ultimately higher for WP because you can buy Def bonuses that would make it comparable to EA, defense-wise, with WP goodies underneath those bonuses (regen, resists, always on recovery). Doing so does not adhere to your requirement to build on the cheap though. |
In the example I have with 3 level 40 IOs in them, WP is 21.3% to F/C/E/N, 17.7& to Psi and only 9.8% to S/L. It has 53.1% S/L Res, and 32.5% Psi res with the rest being 8.9%.
Can it get the defenses up to soft cap along with S/L resist and maybe Psi resist without spending the hundreds of millions of inf I don't have?
Or could I do it easier with EA? I would assume that getting the def to soft cap will be easier. There was a post somewhere that is eluding me, the says you can do it by level 24, but can I also get the resists up where I need them to be without having to spend hours farming up inf with my 50 who only has 50 something million?
EA doesn't really have much in the way of resists. Or do you mean ElA?
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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You will never see self-hard-capped res except through a defensive powerset's T9 (Unstoppable, Power Surge, Force of Nature which all crash), or some corner cases like an Invuln/ tank's s/l res, or Elec Armor's or Fire Armor's energy and fire resist, respectively. Or by using orange inspirations. There are extremely few IO options to increase resistance, and they generally aren't worth chasing. |
Originally Posted by Knight_Marshal
What i mean by cap is to get them to the def or res cap or as close as I can.
In the example I have with 3 level 40 IOs in them, WP is 21.3% to F/C/E/N, 17.7& to Psi and only 9.8% to S/L. It has 53.1% S/L Res, and 32.5% Psi res with the rest being 8.9%. Can it get the defenses up to soft cap along with S/L resist and maybe Psi resist without spending the hundreds of millions of inf I don't have? Or could I do it easier with EA? I would assume that getting the def to soft cap will be easier. There was a post somewhere that is eluding me, the says you can do it by level 24, but can I also get the resists up where I need them to be without having to spend hours farming up inf with my 50 who only has 50 something million? |
Looking at /wp in Mids right now, it looks like you could temporarily hard-cap your s/l res if you slotted all your res powers (HPT, MoB, tough, SoW) up to the ED point, and took Cardiac alpha. That's only for every 120 seconds out of 300, with a -50 endurance crash at the end.
Your best option is to get whatever you choose to the 45% defense soft-cap, and on your budget, its probably easiest to do that on /EA. You will have some resist to soften the hits that come through, along with a good heal.
Whichever you enjoy playing more is the best choice, though; you'll get inf and rewards as you go, and you can build up your toon over time.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
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Yeah, I was including tough in that which gave me a base 20.6% S/L before sets.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
EA doesn't really have much in the way of resists. Or do you mean ElA?
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It looks like there are far more +def bonuses from sets than there are +res, so I am not sure if I should try to get WP up to the def soft cap with its better resists and healing or just go for the easy one and hope the lack of resist and no heal until 28/35 will not get me killed too often.
I made me a plant/earth dom to mess around with until I decide.
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Originally Posted by Knight_Marshal
What i mean by cap is to get them to the def or res cap or as close as I can.
In the example I have with 3 level 40 IOs in them, WP is 21.3% to F/C/E/N, 17.7& to Psi and only 9.8% to S/L. It has 53.1% S/L Res, and 32.5% Psi res with the rest being 8.9%. Can it get the defenses up to soft cap along with S/L resist and maybe Psi resist without spending the hundreds of millions of inf I don't have? Or could I do it easier with EA? I would assume that getting the def to soft cap will be easier. There was a post somewhere that is eluding me, the says you can do it by level 24, but can I also get the resists up where I need them to be without having to spend hours farming up inf with my 50 who only has 50 something million? |
yes, you can softcap your def with WP (it's easy with a WP tanker, it's almost crippling with a WP scrapper or brute). WP will be more survivable if that's your goal, with or without a softcap. The regen, alone will make up for it's short comings. But it will be very expensive.
The thing about WP, unlike the sets that are either all def based or almost all def based, is that you don't have to get to the softcap on everything to have a pretty awesome defensive set. Where most of the def based sets (SR, SD, EA) don't have anything else to fall back on, or very little to fall back on, WP has huge regen, good S/L resists and nice +HP.
I would say the best stretch goal on WP would be getting S/L def softcapped. If you can do this and have decent E/NE def, you will be a powerhouse - however S/L has the longest way to go on WP, so that takes the most sacrifices. If you can't do that, or don't want to shoot that far I would recommend trying to push your S/L def up to 32.5%. That put you 1 small purple insp away from the softcap. If you can get both S/L and E/NE up to 32.5% you will be pretty well set. Things like cimerrorans will still chew you up because you have no def debuff resistance, but that would be true whether you are at 32.5 or the cap - it just takes a few seconds longer at the softcap.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I've got a level 49 Stone/WP brute that has some pretty high S/L defence and a pretty decent Energy defense...with some smattering of other damage types...which I accomplished mostly by accident. He easily turned into my toughest toon i've got going for me (ie the very first toon i was able to run a +0x8 mission with) and depending on what he's up against...can plow through stuff with ease. But...there's still stuff that gives him absolute Hades. I laugh at Rikti...but Spiders piss me off. Freakshow struggle in vain...Carnies...they might get lucky. CoT are hit and miss sometimes.
My Shield/Kin tanker is rapidly catching up though. He's getting to that "really hard to hit" phase...but...as mentioned before...when his defense begins to falter...he doesn't have much else to fall back on. My brute...has all the goodies of /WP. Hopefully, i'll be able to replicate this in my new StJ/WP brute that I'm leveling.
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Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
Soft-capped WP would be pretty hilarious despite being impractical. But your goal for WP shouldn't be soft-cap anyway. Among other things, it doesn't need it. You'd get more mileage out of adding a few Kinetic Combat sets and getting S/L DEF up to around 25-30%.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm no fan of WP, so I have nothing to say on it; but I will say that new /EA is hilarious amounts of fun. I've been soft-capped in spawns since level 35, and effectively living with permahasten since level 22 (when I could handle big groups).
Play EA. Go to the warzone. Punch faces. You will not regret it.
How would you compare the new EA to SR? I have tried SR scrappers but never could get them up to far as it seemed that for a def based set, the mobs could not miss me.
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My Claws/WP Brute: softcapped S/L Defense, over 50% S/L Resistance, Regens 80 HP/sec, Recovers 3 END/sec beyond the cost of running 9 toggles. The only compromise I made was with Shockwave, which is not in my normal attack chain anyway. I don't find it impractical at all. Oh, no purples or PvP IOs.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Soft-capped WP would be pretty hilarious despite being impractical. But your goal for WP shouldn't be soft-cap anyway. Among other things, it doesn't need it. You'd get more mileage out of adding a few Kinetic Combat sets and getting S/L DEF up to around 25-30%.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Some points on EA:
- It has an extremely fast self-heal when you build for recharge.
- It slows enemy recharge significantly (-16%), which is a 'hard to measure' benefit, and can also sap a third of their end bar.
- It has respectable amounts of regen itself.
- It has an extremely fast endurance-restoration power when you build for recharge. (And with EA, you WILL be building for recharge.)
- All of that recharge that comes with it? Amazing for your offense.
- Overload can easily be up 3/4 of the time, softcaps you to everything but Psionics, even in Incarnate Trials, and doubles your HP (roughly equivalent to getting an extra +50% Resistance in everything, except you'll still get full benefit from using Oranges) while throwing on another 35% resistance to defense debuffs.
I'm not so sure I buy the argument that Willpower will perform higher, personally. It has much less -def debuff protection (EA gets another 13 or 14 more than Willpower in its usual abilities, and then another 35 in Overload - my build is looking at 87 defense debuff res with Overload on, and a very respectable 52 without), and its godmode is much weaker/less uptime. It's still a very awesome set, but Energy Aura's revamp is freakin' amazing itself. My low-cost Energy Aura build I'm toying with has 22% ranged D and 17% AoE D, so when you include Overload, the 'psionic hole' that is its weakness isn't much of a hole anymore.
Compared to SR, EA slightly underperforms relative to SR in pure defense for a bit of that time. Towards the end of low-mid, EA benefits significantly from lacking an AoE hole the way low SR does.
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Keeping in mind that my high-level post-change EA experience involves a copied-over level 50 DM/EA Brute with a pre-i20 softcapped build that I never even respec'd to take Energize, I'd say "better baseline with IOs that becomes worse when debuffs hit". Without Energize she was capable of running around on +3/x8 against Malta and Carnies but she was completely torn apart by Arachnos, who have more psi and toxic damage, which the positional defense in SR will help with, and more defense debuffs, which SR just ignores.|
Originally Posted by Knight_Marshal
How would you compare the new EA to SR? I have tried SR scrappers but never could get them up to far as it seemed that for a def based set, the mobs could not miss me.
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In contrast my SM/WP Brute was built for recharge, with little consideration for survivability beyond what popped up in set bonuses when building for recharge, accuracy, and endurance. She's still easier to keep alive than the DM/EA, even with S/L defense in the upper teens and f/c/e/n/psi in the upper 20s, and not having Darkest Night - really, unless you bottom out her recovery and/or regen, she doesn't worry about it.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I keep thinking I would like to try EA, but the holes to Psi and Toxic are just more then I'm willing to deal with. I know that you could likely put together a build with IOs to cover some of the Psi hole, but it's just something that seems like you shouldn't have to do. Especially considering how much Psi damage there is in the late game. I'm sure someone with a high level EA could post saying they do fine, but it's still enough to keep me from making an EA toon.
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I expect EA does okay considering it still manages good RES, DEF, regen, and a heal. Even if it's not quite as durable as WP, it has good perks for endurance and recharge. I plan to try it out when Titan Weapons come around.
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Originally Posted by Vysires
I keep thinking I would like to try EA, but the holes to Psi and Toxic are just more then I'm willing to deal with. I know that you could likely put together a build with IOs to cover some of the Psi hole, but it's just something that seems like you shouldn't have to do. Especially considering how much Psi damage there is in the late game. I'm sure someone with a high level EA could post saying they do fine, but it's still enough to keep me from making an EA toon.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by Vysires
I keep thinking I would like to try EA, but the holes to Psi and Toxic are just more then I'm willing to deal with. I know that you could likely put together a build with IOs to cover some of the Psi hole, but it's just something that seems like you shouldn't have to do. Especially considering how much Psi damage there is in the late game. I'm sure someone with a high level EA could post saying they do fine, but it's still enough to keep me from making an EA toon.
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yeah... everything seems to run with psi or energy damage late in the game. That makes it really hard on non-WP tankers... who get naturally high def against both (even some res against them as well)
EA does have an advantage when it comes to the incarnate cap, as it is "fairly" easy to get a at least a couple positions up to 59%. On my uber-ed out build I'm looking at being incarnate capped to at least smashing/lethal/energy/fire/cold, and I may even get neg pretty high if energy drain stacks (which I'm guessing it doesn't). Combine that with decent resists and 90 hps, and it is about as good as anything a scrapper can put out.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Energy Drain, if it is indeed exactly like Ice Armor's Energy Absorption, will stack. I easily maintained 2 (and briefly, 3) castings worth on my IO'ed Ice tank throughout any mission.
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Originally Posted by Combat
EA does have an advantage when it comes to the incarnate cap, as it is "fairly" easy to get a at least a couple positions up to 59%. On my uber-ed out build I'm looking at being incarnate capped to at least smashing/lethal/energy/fire/cold, and I may even get neg pretty high if energy drain stacks (which I'm guessing it doesn't). Combine that with decent resists and 90 hps, and it is about as good as anything a scrapper can put out.
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50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
Yay! That means that I can actually cap even negative, so I'm incarnate capped to all types but psy.
TW/Elec Optimization
Wow. That's incredible.
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From my playing on beta, it does stack. But it's not exactly like Energy Absorption: there's less +def and more +end per target.
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Originally Posted by Telperion
Energy Drain, if it is indeed exactly like Ice Armor's Energy Absorption, will stack. I easily maintained 2 (and briefly, 3) castings worth on my IO'ed Ice tank throughout any mission.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I am looking at making a new street justice character and am looking at a scrapper for EA and a brute for WP. However I can't decide on which. The concept is someone who was mutated by the radiation from the meteors that hit Galaxy City during the tutorial. She is basically going to be a blue She-Hulk homage character.
I loaded both up in Mids and set every defensive power with level 40 IOs to see how they compare as a basis to see where each has a weakness. EA has low resists of course and WP has low S/L def and low resists for everything but S/L and Psi.
Using easy to get and afford IO sets with an eye for saving inf, which set is the easiest to cap for its strengths and cap or get close enough to cap for its weakness?