Retreading "feminism"
By
akarah the hunter,
Posted on: 2011-09-28 05:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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That's more or less what I mean, yes. I know there are exceptions, and my question was indeed genuine - I want to know about them. But at the same time, I can't really think of too many movies where an "action heroine" is done right, and I can think of MANY where she is done wrong (say, Barbed Wire). I guess some of my disappointment comes from the fact that, in order for a female character to be truly respected by a story's narrative, that story most usually isn't an action-based one. And, again, that's not so much a comment to criticise society so much as to complain that I want my action women and I can barely find any |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The more nuanced answer to what I think you may be asking is that women rarely lead blockbuster movies. But this goes back to what I was saying about there being multiple channels of messages. Blockbuster movies are not something that is generally associated with good taste. They play a strange role in US society because at the same time they are mocked for their lowbrow content, they are held up as markets women and minorities need more representation in.
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I do get by by occasionally making my own, but I'm running out of inspiration and I don't see many new sources for it.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
One of the objections earlier in this thread to the depictions of Sister P was that it was "obviously" drawn with men in mind. The other objection seems to be that she is being retooled into some kind of "stupid ****" (my words, paraphrasing). But images of scantily clad women are not consumed only by straight men. Who is it you find supporting "divas" like Madonna, Cher, Brittany Spears, Lady Gaga, and Christina Aguilera even during their most outcast moments? I think it's impossible to argue that these figures are not sexualized, but also hard to argue that their sexualization has an unambiguous fuel source. They are definitely not, in the circles in which they are idolized, characterized as "stupid sluts."
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More specifically with Sister Psyche, my personal complaint, as directed to the people responsible for defining her image, is: "Are we on the same page here? What are we supposed to think about this woman? Because what I can infer from her portrayal isn't flattering." Basically, it's more a concern that her character is being boulderised than it is an actual accusation of such an act. So far, Sister Psyche is doing pretty well. As I said before, one demeaning pic isn't going to ruin her image. But is THAT what we want her image to be? A breasty contortionist with fish lips? I get that that's some men's sexual fantasy and... I can roll with it, but I don't think Sister Psyche as a sexual fantasy is a very good direction to take her character.
This one pic... Eh. Take it or leave it. If this keeps up, though? Yeah, I'll be making another "Dr. Graves hurts my brain" thread about her, put it like that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Successful Blockbusters with prominent female characters I feel one was supposed to desire to emulate:
V for Vendetta
The Matrix and sequels
The Professional (um, sort of)
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Wait, are we talking about Trinity here? Because aside from right at the very start of the first movie, her entire purpose has been to be rescued by Neo, to the point where half he plot of Reloaded was saving her from doing exactly what gamers hate supporting characters doing - getting herself killed. I suppose one could construe that as heroic, but it ended up with Neo having to race out to save her, which is precisely what happens in games where the player character is the only competent person in the universe.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
The Matrix and sequels
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I don't know if Carrie-Anne Moss just isn't a very good actress or if the script and acting directions she was given were just awful, but her entire presence in those movies feels more like they needed a token female presence than like she actually has some vital part in the plot. It doesn't help that she delivers all her lines with all the enthusiasm of the Terminator. I suppose the point is that she's ruthless, efficient and impersonal, but she comes off as awkward and insecure, instead.
I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting, but I see Trinity more as an example of the problem than an example of a solution. She is female and she does have action scenes on-screen, but she doesn't come off like a compelling character and is constantly overshadowed and often made unnecessary by Mary Sue protagonist Neo. And she gets stuffed in a fridge by the end. Classy.
Ellen Ripley is a good example, though. More so in Aliens than in Alien, but I get the general idea. She's not a super soldier, but for a relatively ordinary woman, she does surprisingly well for herself as a survivor, and she actually gets to do something without messing it up. That counts for a lot.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't watch a lot of action or comic book movies. I would be tempted to say that the Underworld movies are examples of an action-chick although I mostly ignored that movie while it was playing, because I watched it years ago in at a goth bar in New Orleans and the attendees were more colorful than the vampires or werewolves. I did see Sin City in the theater and found it simultaneously intriguing and completely repellent.
I do think it's kind of funny that we are kind of saying, well, Jennifer Conelly was great in The House of Sand and Fog, but can she carry an Independence Day? 
IMO one of the greatest crimes against cinema is that Peter Jackson is famous primarily for King Kong and The Snore of the Rings ( ) trilogy and not for his 1994, IMO masterpiece, Heavenly Creatures. That movie does feature strong female leads, as well as strong everything else, and is IMO something Jackson has yet to top (even if I have a lot of affection for Dead Alive.) It was also the breakout role for Kate Winslet, who is better known in popular culture for such fare as Titanic but occasionally gets back to her roots with stronger stuff.
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Yes.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Wait, are we talking about Trinity here? .
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Trinity does get eventually rescued by Neo, but prior to that she rescues Neo, and she manages to escape from an Agent (with some timely help from an Operator, but that's how it's done).
I definitely beleive that she was written as a role model character, even though I agree that her destiny was to fall in love with the male lead (actually, I beleive, so that he could fail to save her); it's kind of meta that way in that her role in the story was actually a major plot point of the story itself.
And that doesn't count as being 'stuffed in the fridge', I looked it up
. To be Stuffed in the Fridge, you have to be killed and then deliberately left for the hero to find later, not killed while in battle alongside said hero (Edit: it does say the use of the term has expanded over time, but that same expansion makes it non-sexual).As for Carrie-Ann Moss' acting, watch Memento.
Right now.
I'll wait.
(I'm not saying her acting is stellar in this, it's just one of those movies everyone should see. The fact that it stars half of the Matrix cast in a story about manipulating one's perceptions is just bonus lolz).
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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That's kind of my beef, though - Trinity is more of a plot point than a character. I may be a bit rusty on my Matrix, but I really don't recall her being given any real identifying features in the movie aside from "loves Neo" right up until her existence becomes a plot point. And then becomes a plot point again in the sequel. Not that many of the Matrix cast were that well defined - Neo suffers more than most - but Trinity always felt like she was just sort of "there." She did cool stunts, sure, but then a lot of people did that, and in the end, she was still the hero's girlfriend.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I definitely beleive that she was written as a role model character, even though I agree that her destiny was to fall in love with the male lead (actually, I beleive, so that he could fail to save her); it's kind of meta that way in that her role in the story was actually a major plot point of the story itself.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
And that doesn't count as being 'stuffed in the fridge', I looked it up
. To be Stuffed in the Fridge, you have to be killed and then deliberately left for the hero to find later, not killed while in battle alongside said hero (Edit: it does say the use of the term has expanded over time, but that same expansion makes it non-sexual). |
My point, though, is that this is just the worst possible thing you can do to a character, and Trinity has been on the receiving end of so much unfairness. She exists to be an object of affection, to get shot and saved and then to play moral support. Looked at emphatically, I can see that she's trying to help, and trying really hard. She risks her life on numerous occasions, she supports Neo at every step, she fights like a demon, and what does she get for it in the end? Rebar through the chest. Thanks, movie.---
This is actually something of a tangent I want to go on, and it's something Yahtzee has noted in the past - female leads in games all too often exist to provide sexual tension for the male lead and then get murdered horribly at some point before the end to give him greater resolve. And this really pisses me off, personally. Most of the time, a female lead will be put at an extreme disadvantage - she's weaker than "the hero," she has to fight harder, she can't do as much, but she perseveres anyway. And instead of this earning her a place on the survivors' list, she gets killed horribly off-screen where I, as the player, can't get to her to save her in time. I'm so sick of games doing this that it's gotten to the point where I dread HAVING a female companion in games where I'm set to play the make hero, because I KNOW that sooner or later the game will make me watch her die. Even though I'm a superpowered god of destruction and she's barely scraping by.
Maybe it's just me not having a stomach for "realism," but I'm a strong believer of characters getting what they deserve. If you're a villain who unleashed a zombie apocalypse and zombies bite off your brain, you kind of deserved that. It's gruesome, but you did it to yourself. By contrast, if you're an underpowered underdog just barely able to survive in said zombie apocalypse and you pull off the impossible by reaching the end with all your limbs still attached, then you deserve to survive. And if a bridge falls on your head ten feet from the safe room, that's just not fair. That's the kind of storytelling that makes me want to bang my expensive equipment together because it's just cruel.
I know "stupid deaths" aren't really restricted to women, but they are very common victims of such just the same.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It has often been said about Ginger Rogers' dance partnership with Fred Astaire that she did everything he did, except backwards and in high heels |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Most of the time, a female lead will be put at an extreme disadvantage - she's weaker than "the hero," she has to fight harder, she can't do as much, but she perseveres anyway.
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.But making the hero the most competent member of the cast is one of those Western things that makes me take frequent breaks to anime.
Granted, anime is also fond of stuffing characters in the fridge just to make the hero (and audience) feel justified at giving the villain the royal beatdown he deserves (I'm looking at YOU, Kenshiro! And you, Goku!)
Having a character suddenly die "unfairly" (I'm looking at YOU, Josh Whedon!) isn't what I would call a pet peeve, but it has to be pulled off very well for me not to end up angry at the screenwriter rather than the villain.
And now we are completely off topic.
I think.
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On the subject of female characters that exist just to provide sexual tension and then die so the hero can go into the final confrontation with some angst...is that really any different from any other member of the cast (barring the sexual tension)?
What I mean is, what specifically has to be done with a character to transform her from "The heroes' girlfriend" into "a real character who happened to be the hero's love interest"?
And how does that differ from being:
The employer who is upset at the hero's ways but keeps sending him on missions
The totally not gay best friend of the hero
The cool old guy who teaches the hero stuff
The menacing rival who may or may not turn out to help the hero
The plot device geek
The big strong quiet friend of the hero
...at this point aren't we just arguing in favor of deeper characterization all around, or ensemble casts?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I am not a chick, but I see why some women can get upset, just wish they lighten up a bit. Seem like most of trouble Issues are Video Games, Anime and Comics Books. A lot of games are design by the Japanese and same goes for Anime, I seen a lot of Big Boobs Women and Short Skirt Women form these Anime and Video Games that Japanese make.
However Comics Books IS another Story, DC and Marvel are really big on making Hawt Women, They Most look Sexy but Powerful. There a saying if it not broken don't fix it, They seem ok about keeping thing as it is and that not right. I don't see this will change how women are view yet, in time yes, but not right now.
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
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Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
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This post contains a spoiler about a recent-ish horror film (The Descent) so if that is problematic you may want to bypass. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I know "stupid deaths" aren't really restricted to women, but they are very common victims of such just the same.
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First of all Sam I want to let you know how much I enjoy reading your posts. We don't always see things eye to eye but I like how much energy you put into your characters. Passively observing other people's characters is a huge draw for me in this game. I think that you and I have almost polar-opposite design strategies for characters, but I respect where you are coming from with your designs and love seeing explanations of their backstories and how you came up with them.
Back on topic (sort of): character fates are notoriously fickle. Sometimes they are even a choose your own adventure based on your nationality. I think most of us understand what the term "Hollywood ending" implies.
The movie The Descent is about a group of female adventure junkies who decide to explore a cave. They end up encountering monsters who eat most of the cast. In less talented hands, this would be standard T&A material. The way it's done here is actually legitimately scary.
It's a given in horror movies that characters die, often in the stupid ways you describe. What is intriguing to me about The Descent is that depending on which country you saw it in, you got one of two possible endings:
-- In the US: In the final confrontation with the monsters, the 2 final girls fight them off. Then the protagonist, angry at girl #2, who may have been having an affair with her deceased husband and is possibly responsible for the deaths of one of their friends, stabs girl #2 in the leg and leaves her to die. She manages to scramble to safety, but as she is in her car driving away, sees an image of the friend she just stabbed.
-- Elsewhere: Everything above, but then it is revealed girl #1 is actually still in the cave, surrounded by monsters, but is oblivious and hallucinating, her "descent" into madness complete. She is presumably killed by the monsters.
I happen to like the non-US version better.
Unfortunately, this movie has a sequel. And the sequel essentially codifies the American ending as the "correct" one. Then it goes further and indicates that the girl #2 is also alive. This completely dispenses with and modifies everything we saw at the end of the original movie.
The reason this happened isn't really a decision for artistic sake, but a decision of related to the franchise. The story must go on. So the girls are alive again, and are Jason, Freddy, and Michael Myers.
Spiderman, Batman and all those guys undergo similar sorts of decisions. It isn't just that they're designed with story arcs in mind, but they are designed to stretch franchise opportunities as long as possible. People don't build roller coasters named after Dorian Gray.
I'm not really sure what point I'm making or if I am making any point. But at least I do think interpretations of when a character "deserves" to die are different in different markets.
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Specifically? It depends on the plot. More generally, though? I want to see "the hero's girlfriend" have a story arc where either she has to accomplish something meaningful to herself and the rest of the cast by herself, or is otherwise put in a position where everything depends on her. In essence, she must get at least one "moment of truth." And she must succeed. And this has to happen BEFORE the end of the movie or story.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
What I mean is, what specifically has to be done with a character to transform her from "The heroes' girlfriend" into "a real character who happened to be the hero's love interest"?
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In essence, for a female character to qualify as a real character instead of simply a love interest, she needs to prove herself competent in a situation which no-one else is competent or able to resolve without her help, and her help must be active (so no "you're the only one small enough to fit through the hole").
It doesn't have to be outright combat or murder, and could be entirely based on some kind of skill that is either unique to her (she's a mechanic and no-one else knows a lick about engines), or that everyone who possess such said skill is unable to apply it (three people can fly a chopper, but the other two are unconscious). So long as the story gives said character an opportunity to prove competent and she DOES prove competent, I'm almost entirely satisfied.
My problem with female characters in action movies is they're baggage, at least more often than not. They don't contribute anything, they pose a liability and they're the effective equivalent of a very heavy duffel bag, weighing down the much more competent hero. So long as a female character proves she's competent at at least ONE thing that someone else couldn't have simply gotten up and done better and she doesn't spend the rest of the story being useless... Eh, I wouldn't complain
I guess that... Kind of counts for Trinity, but again... I struggle to think of what she accomplished that was actually integral to the plot. Blowing up a power station, I guess, but even the need for that is contrived, just to put her in harm's way. Yes, she outran an agent, but that accomplished nothing other than keep herself alive... OK, that kind of counts, since it was awesome
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
...at this point aren't we just arguing in favor of deeper characterization all around, or ensemble casts?
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I happen to think that female characters in action movies tend to have it worse than most, but yeah - better characterisation for everyone is the ideal solution.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
First of all Sam I want to let you know how much I enjoy reading your posts. We don't always see things eye to eye but I like how much energy you put into your characters. Passively observing other people's characters is a huge draw for me in this game. I think that you and I have almost polar-opposite design strategies for characters, but I respect where you are coming from with your designs and love seeing explanations of their backstories and how you came up with them.
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It's what makes the game so much fun, at least from my perspective.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I happen to like the non-US version better.
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In general, I hate downer endings. They waste my time while accomplishing nothing, they rob me of a satisfying conclusion and they're always, but ALWAYS, depressing and unpleasant. Considering I watch movies, read books and play games for fun, something which leaves me bitter and depressed is decidedly not something I want to devote time, let alone money, to.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm not really sure what point I'm making or if I am making any point. But at least I do think interpretations of when a character "deserves" to die are different in different markets.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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On the subject of The Descent, from Wikipedia:
Filmmakers originally planned for the cast to be both male and female, but Neil Marshall's business partner realized that horror films almost never have all-female casts. Defying convention, Marshall cast all women into the role, and to avoid making them clichéd, he solicited basic advice from his female friends. He explained the difference, "The women discuss how they feel about the situation, which the soldiers in Dog Soldiers would never have done."
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
ok, not wading deeply into this topic, as there are a lot of land mines, but a somewhat related anecdote. I just finished a rather fun ds metroidvania type game today, and once the credits rolled, just like pretty much every game i have beaten where i know enough about the language to discern the genders of those who make the game, only one female outside of the legal and external management staff. funny part is this game had a non-sexualized female lead AND, in a somewhat unusual development, a female villain, who was kind of a subversion of some common gaming tropes(its noted she wears nearly the same dress as princess peach). Now they had better be non-sexualized, since both are pre-teens. I have noticed this in some major release games, like 95% guys, and these are the "triple a"(note, i !@#$ing hate that self aggrandising, self promoting bs term) multi-million sellers. Cant imagine that doesnt affect how things get portrayed.
Kinda neat we have cheryl, war witch, the fx artist with the coolest name ever and a few other female developers whose names im forgetting in the actual steel of the game, rather than external non gaming ends of it.
An action film (with a female in the lead role) that i enjoyed, was Doomsday
Could also be described as a "British" Mad Max...
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I would say that it is more because they want to differentiate themselves from the "American" style, which can be pretty much over the top for the succesful movies.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'd say different markets are more tolerant towards undeserving deaths. European audiences, from what I've seen in my fellow countrymen, at least, seem much more enthralled with damn unpleasant brutality if it reflects the unfairness of real life than they are with the kind of escapist entertainment I personally crave. For this reason, I'll almost ALWAYS pick the "American" style of ending a story, just because Americans know how to end a story with a strong, satisfying bang, as opposed to the glum, melodramatic peter that makes me completely unable to watch any movie made in my own country.
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But I find the more "realistic" US or UK/EU action movies are also very enjoyable, even though they end on a "high", and are more "down to earth"... Dog Soldiers (ends with a bang... literally), 28 Hours/28 Days Later end on a "what if" note...
Hell, even Sunshine... although it ended "successfully", still had a massive down note on it as well...
I guess that this is what happens if you let UK directors in on the action (Resident Evil and P W Anderson films are excluded from this, although they themselves are more "American" orientated films, than typical of UK films).
Edit: I also find it actually very repulsive that a film should have two different endings... especially if one ending is *purely* for the largest market.... i can understand it if the "proper" ending was for the mass market, and then due to other circumstances it was changed for "smaller" regions (normally based on what they allowed to be shown). But the Descent changing its ending is strange as it was more due to "try to make more money" instead of "staying true to its goal"
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Judging from the trailer, this could be very much what I had in mind. Judging from the trailer, that's also exactly the kind of movie that terrifies me, because I just don't trust screenwriters to not go for the easy cheap-shots. But I'll take your word for it and see about tracking this thing down. Seems like a solid work.
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
An action film (with a female in the lead role) that i enjoyed, was Doomsday
Could also be described as a "British" Mad Max... |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Judging from the trailer, this could be very much what I had in mind. Judging from the trailer, that's also exactly the kind of movie that terrifies me, because I just don't trust screenwriters to not go for the easy cheap-shots. But I'll take your word for it and see about tracking this thing down. Seems like a solid work.
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Videodrome (1983) does NOT have a strong female lead, at least not exactly. The main female character actually violates some of the stated rules. However it covers a lot of the same themes we've been talking about. If you watch it, its helpful to try to view it as a period piece set very distinctly in its own timeframe.
A less sci-fi movie you may want to look for is also Network (1976). I was really bored with this one for the first thirty minutes or so but stuck with it. I'm glad I did.
Hedwig and the Angry Inch (2001) is one of my favorite movies ever. The lead is not technically female, it is not an "action" picture, but it is to some extent a fantasy, even if a fairly gritty one. It's largely ignored by the mainstream but beloved by the "substream" if such a stream can be said to exist.
In reference back to the costume editor, if the developers ever go back through classic 80s movies for examples to include in the costume editor, some of the effects from this movie would be perfect. [When I originally wrote this I was referring to Videodrome and not Hedwig, but if we could get Hedwig's hair that would be incredibly awesome too.
][EDIT: Throwing in another for you, can't believe I didn't think of this before. The TV series Damages, at least season 1. It's not action-chick but its definitely about female characters moving the world.]
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Excellent movie. Wish I could have seen some of the short theatre they workshopped before they knew it would become a film. Growing fan of small house contemporary theatre.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Hedwig and the Angry Inch (2001) is one of my favorite movies ever. The lead is not technically female, it is not an "action" picture, but it is to some extent a fantasy, even if a fairly gritty one. It's largely ignored by the mainstream but beloved by the "substream" if such a stream can be said to exist.
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When I think of strong female role models from TV and movies, I always think of Zoe from Firefly/Serenity. She's tough, competent, loyal and cool under pressure. She's also, IMO, a rare example of a woman who's shown as sexual and attractive without being sexualized. One episode of the TV series even has her, in a reversal of traditional gender roles, rescue her husband from captivity.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
My problem with female characters in action movies is they're baggage, at least more often than not. They don't contribute anything, they pose a liability and they're the effective equivalent of a very heavy duffel bag, weighing down the much more competent hero. So long as a female character proves she's competent at at least ONE thing that someone else couldn't have simply gotten up and done better and she doesn't spend the rest of the story being useless... Eh, I wouldn't complain
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Granted, ensemble projects are quite different from media where there's a lead character of some kind, but the example shows that it's at least possible to create a well-rounded, attractive and likeable female character who isn't just a living blowup doll or a helpless princess in a castle.
Women can have a real muscle slider when I can have my buttcape, dammit.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
You know... Something funny just occurred to me, and that's really just me becoming aware of a specific personal bias:
Almost all of my Stalkers are women. Seriously. I have one who's not - a grey alien - and all the others just kind of are. Sure, some are aliens, some are robots, some are mutants and so forth, but they all have one defining characteristic - they're all small, skinny and light in physical appearance. The first time I became aware of this was when someone suggested that I make a giant mech character of mine Super Reflexes and my brain blue-screend at the prospect. Whaaat? But it's big and heavy and big and... Fast? Does not compute! *crash* *cold reset* So, what were we talking about?
It occurs to me that my brain is hard-wired to associate physical appearance with physical ability to quite a significant extent, as I mentioned earlier. What this results in is that if I want to make a fast, agile character, then I almost invariably create one that's small and light, and let's be honest here - the female model in City of Heroes is FAR superior at making small and light things than the male model is. If you try to make the male model too "light" it just comes off as deflated, and if you make a male character very small, he looks shrunk down more so than short. Not so for the female model. Females start FAR shorter than men to begin with and they don't lose as much of their verisimilitude when they're made skinny, though that's probably because I've grown to accept pop model "super-thin" as a legitimate body shape.
So... Yeah, I find myself making my Stalkers smaller, my Brutes bigger and my Scrappers somewhere in the middle. And I didn't even realise I was doing it
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know... Something funny just occurred to me, and that's really just me becoming aware of a specific personal bias:
Almost all of my Stalkers are women. Seriously. I have one who's not - a grey alien - and all the others just kind of are. Sure, some are aliens, some are robots, some are mutants and so forth, but they all have one defining characteristic - they're all small, skinny and light in physical appearance. The first time I became aware of this was when someone suggested that I make a giant mech character of mine Super Reflexes and my brain blue-screend at the prospect. Whaaat? But it's big and heavy and big and... Fast? Does not compute! *crash* *cold reset* So, what were we talking about? It occurs to me that my brain is hard-wired to associate physical appearance with physical ability to quite a significant extent, as I mentioned earlier. What this results in is that if I want to make a fast, agile character, then I almost invariably create one that's small and light, and let's be honest here - the female model in City of Heroes is FAR superior at making small and light things than the male model is. If you try to make the male model too "light" it just comes off as deflated, and if you make a male character very small, he looks shrunk down more so than short. Not so for the female model. Females start FAR shorter than men to begin with and they don't lose as much of their verisimilitude when they're made skinny, though that's probably because I've grown to accept pop model "super-thin" as a legitimate body shape. So... Yeah, I find myself making my Stalkers smaller, my Brutes bigger and my Scrappers somewhere in the middle. And I didn't even realise I was doing it |
Sounds muchly like my tank issue.
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It is, but for me, it's more of a Stalker issue - I just can't wrap my head around a big, bulky, awkward dude being a "stalker," since it doesn't really feel like he'd be very stealthy. That, and Stalkers actually lack most of the "toughness" powersets like Invulnerability and Stone Armour, though I guess Willpower still counts.|
Originally Posted by Nyx
Sounds muchly like my tank issue.
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Now that I know I'm discriminating against them, though, I'll have to make a big Stalker at some point. Fair's fair.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm not sure if it's a society thing, or a comic book culture thing, or a mixture of both, but the fact is that it is easier to believe that a smaller person can be super strong than it is to believe a larger person can be quick and agile. The examples of beefy guys in comics being graceful fighters are few and far between (Beast comes to mind, but he's not even that big). Comparatively, it's easy to believe that Rogue or Supergirl could punch a semi across town. In the case of the female characters, I guess it could be written off as society's conditioning overriding logic, but that doesn't explain why a large male character simply looks wrong being portrayed as fast and/or agile.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
*Blargh*
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The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
Take a gander at the NFL. You see +300lb. linemen with SUB 5 second 40 yard dash times. That is rather speedy, no?
OT: Tex, the array of characters in your sig brings a smile to my face and a slow clap of respect to my hands every time I see them. We gotta team sometime.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!