I completely agree with everything in this thread. I think a -Damage or -range component would make Grav a really unique and more fun set to play on top of the -SPD. -SPD is great but doesnt do much if the enemies are still shooting at you. The animation times could definitely use a little tweaking. Other than that its not a bad set, I think the visual FX are some of the coolest looking but that's just me. 
Leave my grav alone
I'd like to see Propel have an AOE aspect to it. It is just silly that you can hurl a car at a bunch of mobs and only hit one of them!
A fix of gravity is indeed long overdue.
Malakim
-Playing since COH beta and still love the game!
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You're opposed to making the set BETTER? I don't think they would ever change the actual powers but they could definitely make them better. Take energy aura's conserve power for example. They made it better by adding a heal and +regen component to it but left existing functionality alone. The same could be done to grav to give it a little more appeal IMO.|
Originally Posted by MAD UMLAUTS
Leave my grav alone
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See http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=252353
This exact thread is in the dominator forums as well. Maybe the dev's might get a hint..
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I think these changes (minus the power selection swap, they just don't do that sort of thing), would go a long way to fixing Gravity. I'd also like Wormhole not to pre-notify critters. None of these violate the cottage rule. (Though I understand that animation changes are non-trivial to do. The rest are less problematic as far as dev/programmer time.)|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
I disagree, OOB. I think Gravity could be (and should be) brought up to speed fairly easily.
Shorten the animations on Propel and Wormhole, both to around 1.5 seconds. Swap Wormhole and Dimension Shift in order of power selection. Up the radius on Wormhole to match other area stuns. Give Lift a 1.3-ish Damage scalar like Gravity Dominators and Mind Controllers get. You now have a set which shines in single target damage, and is no longer too far behind in area control. Ideal for solo Controllers or a more aggresive/less support role in teams. |
Didn't Castle say that Gravity's animation times were being looked at shortly before he left?
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While I think it's highly unlikely (particularly given that they opted NOT to swap Energize/Lightning Reflexes for villains when they updated Electric), they have in fact done it in the past, when they moved Tanker Taunt powers to level 10.|
Originally Posted by Pattern Walker
I think these changes (minus the power selection swap, they just don't do that sort of thing), would go a long way to fixing Gravity. I'd also like Wormhole not to pre-notify critters. None of these violate the cottage rule. (Though I understand that animation changes are non-trivial to do. The rest are less problematic as far as dev/programmer time.)
Didn't Castle say that Gravity's animation times were being looked at shortly before he left? |
Really I think the power level swap is one of the most important things Gravity needs. Having to wait 26+ levels for your only real AoE control option just doesn't work.
I'm not sure they can prevent Wormhole from pre-notification unless they set the whole power to not notify mobs, removing the time delay on the stun would help though.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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I agree with all this, espically turing Propel into a AOE.. I think Dimension Shift needs to be reworked all together.. maybe turn that to a AOE Propel and keep single target propel for only small items to toss (Lamps, etc) and big stuff (Cars, statues, etc) for the AOE propel |
Originally Posted by Infini
What if Propel were at Targetted AoE? I mean sometimes you're tossing cars at something. Surely a car would hit more than one thing in a mob. They could even keep the activation time as is if this were the case. Doesn't have to be a large AoE, either. 10-12ft?
Dimension Shift needs to be changed, at the very least. I've seen here on the forums the various suggestions for a change. My favorite being a pseudo pet patch that has a random chance to apply various mez effects on targets in the field. Or perhaps a 'polarity shift' for Singy depending on where you are. If you're within Melee range, Singy would act as he does now - repelling foes who come into range. Outside of melee, what if Singy's repel turned into a taunt? Gravitational forces pulling foes towards the Singularity. |
That would be within the theme.. then again I am biased I hate dimension shift as is currently.
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The whole -range thing sounds awesome but i like grav as it is since i only pvp with that powerset. And as others disregard pvp i disregard pve. Lolpve.|
Originally Posted by Syndace
I completely agree with everything in this thread. I think a -Damage or -range component would make Grav a really unique and more fun set to play on top of the -SPD. -SPD is great but doesnt do much if the enemies are still shooting at you. The animation times could definitely use a little tweaking. Other than that its not a bad set, I think the visual FX are some of the coolest looking but that's just me.
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Only thing i'd want is a faster animation on the single target hold really.
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I agree about Dimension Shift . . . Every time I have tried an Intangibility power, I have hated it.|
Originally Posted by Chrome_Family
I agree with all this, espically turing Propel into a AOE.. I think Dimension Shift needs to be reworked all together.. maybe turn that to a AOE Propel and keep single target propel for only small items to toss (Lamps, etc) and big stuff (Cars, statues, etc) for the AOE propel
That would be within the theme.. then again I am biased I hate dimension shift as is currently. |
I always thought that Propel should be a narrow cone. Think about it logically. If a big object appears near the caster and then travels to hit a foe at a particular spot, wouldn't it hit other foes in its path along the way? And then that would justify its long cast time.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Heck, even doing something as "small" as a 8ft radius Target AoE (ie. melee PBAoE sized) would be tremendous improvement, particularly given the Knock.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I always thought that Propel should be a narrow cone. Think about it logically. If a big object appears near the caster and then travels to hit a foe at a particular spot, wouldn't it hit other foes in its path along the way? And then that would justify its long cast time.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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The dev's do not like modifying existing powers that would mess with current builds, and instead will make additive changes that benefit the strengths of that set. This is what Synapse was talking about with the energy aura changes if I read his post correctly.|
Originally Posted by MAD UMLAUTS
The whole -range thing sounds awesome but i like grav as it is since i only pvp with that powerset. And as others disregard pvp i disregard pve. Lolpve.
Only thing i'd want is a faster animation on the single target hold really. |
When it comes to gravity think about what its strengths are. General hard control every set has and lots of -speed. The concept of gravity is to keep that enemy in place where it stands right? Thus -speed. This applies to both pvp and pve. So if you wanted to make the set better by adding damage mitigation while keeping its existing functionality a -range or -damage component seems logical to me. If an enemy is stuck in one place, adding one of these will also reduce incoming damage. Others have mentioned a larger radius and/or shorter animation time on propel which seems like a good idea too.
On top of the standard hard control ice has -recharge to reduce frequency of retaliation, mind and plant have confuse to redirect incoming damage entirely, illusion has unaffectable pets for distraction, fire has added damage and more pets to knock out enemies faster, and elec has end drain to prevent enemies from attacking at all. So for gravity -speed by itself does not do much except keep enemies in place if you need to run out of range. By adding another component to reduce incoming damage you can effectively make the set better.
Overall I agree with you about leaving it be, but I also agree with others that it needs some love. Grav is fine on it's own and makes a great single target set with a great pet. However it's strengths could be improved upon and make leveling and gameplay more on par with other sets with an added component to the -Speed. I think a moderate range or damage debuff is a great way to go and would let grav bring more to the table in both pvp and pve while not messing up any current builds. It would make your grav even better in pvp! *shrug*
I've been leveling a grav/time and even at level 25 I can control single targets well but it I feel it is missing that extra knack and aoe other sets have.
Man.. this is what happens when I get bored at work. Excuse my rambling
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I agree about Dimension Shift . . . Every time I have tried an Intangibility power, I have hated it.
I always thought that Propel should be a narrow cone. Think about it logically. If a big object appears near the caster and then travels to hit a foe at a particular spot, wouldn't it hit other foes in its path along the way? And then that would justify its long cast time. |
My only sort-of objection to making it a cone is if they also changed the IO sets it takes. From a power gaming perspective, single target attacks IO better than AoE ones, in general, because the ST can be used for either high ranged defense or high recharge, and AoE powers are mainly useful for only recharge. A few powers have gotten around this rule though--mainly Jolting Chain and Lightning Storm.
If they did make it an AoE though and left it taking single target, that means you could slot it with hold and a superior damage proc normally excluded from AoEs (the ranged AoE purple proc is a chance for knockback instead of damage).
There are several main issues I have with the set.
1) The graphics are hard to see. Its challenging at times to actually see what is held or immobilized. Every other set I have played has a very obvious graphic that shows me what is held or immobilized.
2) Why does Minds Levitate do a LOT more damage that Lift when they are the same exact power ?
3) Dimension Shift is an utter crap of a power. It should be removed and replaced with something that is useful. Many have suggested an Ice Slick type powers whose effect makes mobs bounce up.. like an Anti Gravity field..
4) Gravity IMO should have an AoE immobilize that cancels all knockback and repel and for jusy 8 seconds. That just makes sense to me.
5) Propel.. Useless animations that IMO were all about looking cool and not actual gameplay.. Takes too long to animate and usually hits target after its already dead. Range is too short for its animation time. Should be 80. not 60. For the length of time it really should be a small cone effect..
6) Wormhole. Overly complicated TP power which stuns enemies AFTER they come out of the Wormhole allowing them to shoot the crap out of me before they get stunned.. yes thats what I want.. a post mez power.. that needs to be fixed badly.. Its should work more consistently on bosses.
7) Sadly... the Warshade has better Gravity themed powers than the Gravity Controller.. This Saddens be greatly...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Except Mind Control (of course) ...|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Every other set I have played has a very obvious graphic that shows me what is held or immobilized.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
2) Why does Minds Levitate do a LOT more damage that Lift when they are the same exact power ?
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
3) Dimension Shift is an utter crap of a power. It should be removed and replaced with something that is useful. Many have suggested an Ice Slick type powers whose effect makes mobs bounce up.. like an Anti Gravity field..
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
5) Propel.. Useless animations that IMO were all about looking cool and not actual gameplay.. Takes too long to animate and usually hits target after its already dead. Range is too short for its animation time. Should be 80. not 60. For the length of time it really should be a small cone effect..
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
6) Wormhole. Overly complicated TP power which stuns enemies AFTER they come out of the Wormhole allowing them to shoot the crap out of me before they get stunned.. yes thats what I want.. a post mez power.. that needs to be fixed badly.. Its should work more consistently on bosses.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
7) Sadly... the Warshade has better Gravity themed powers than the Gravity Controller.. This Saddens be greatly...
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
First thing I would do is reorder the powers..
It should go..
1. Crush (level 1)
2. Gravity Distortion (level 1)
3. Crushing Field (level 2)
4. Lift (level 6)
5. Propel (level 8)
6. Dim Shift (level 12)
7. Wormhole (level 18)
8. Gravity Distortion Field (level 26)
9. Singularity (level 32)
Altering the powers to be set in the above order not only helps controllers but has a drastic effect on Dominators. This allows for people to skip Lift and Crush should they decide to do so, as of right now you are forced into taking Lift or Crush which is fine for controllers but largely redundant for Dominators. This is something all other control sets but Gravity and Mind have as options. Neither gravity nor mind can take the single target hold as their initial power pick. That first pick of a ST hold option opens up more potential build options in a very subtle manner and improves both controllers and dominators. So its a good bang for your buck.
Moving Crushing field earlier into the set also opens up additional build options for controllers and Dominators. This also makes the powers standard for the first three intitial picks.. ST immob, ST hold, AOE immob. Fire, Earth, Ice, and plant all follow that pattern as immob/hold sets. Gravity should keep with that pattern, there is no reason it should break that pattern.
The Dimshift/Wormhole/GDF.. is about improvement of control. AOE Holds are the peek of control as they limit both movement and attack and should come later in the set. They also have very long recharge times and short durations.. they are not a main form of control but rather are sudden bursts of control for when things go south. You need your bread and butter control powers first.
Wormhole and Dimshift are problems with the set. Dim shift does too little or too much being a phase power, its loved by some, hated by others and feared by many who don't understand it. Wormhole as a power does too many things. Wormhole teleports, knockbacks and distorients all in one power. These two powers cause gravity to have good control solo but poor control on a team as you don't need a phase all that often, and relocation of the mobs isn't always useful to the team. Either power used at the wrong time can make for a poorer play experience not only for the player using these powers but for the team that they are on as well. These two powers are the reason gravity is seen as one of the worst control sets in the game simply because they are hard to use powers and the hardest thing to accept as a player is when NOT to use your powers, which is backwards when coming from other control sets and other ATs as well. It needs more team friendly powers.
Break up wormhole into two seperate powers. For years people have said they wanted a reverse knockback sort of effect added to the set.. something that draws targets to a specific point sucking them. I have an idea to make that possible.. Wormhole summons an invisible pet(pets) that teleports a group of mobs to its location and traps them into a knock up field ala earthquake/ice slick or it could just teleport the mobs into a knock up field. The point is to make the power into a teleport and knock up/down power that mimics sucking/attraction aspect of gravity as a force. This keeps the flavor of wormhole while at same time making it much easier to use.. it would largely work by setting down on a targeted location and then the pet would take the rest of things from there teleporting mobs into its knock up field. The player wouldn't get shot for using the power as all argo would go onto the pet that was doing the actual teleportation and sucking the mobs into its field of effect. It would keep the teleport and knock up powers so could take those sets and would be a 90s recharge, 30 second duration. Its a bit like illusions fear power.. summoning a pet that causes a fear effect for you.
Dim Shift would then lose its Phase and Immob but is turned into your typical AOE disorient effect making it a bread and butter controller for the gravity controller. Again improvement to the overal power and overall set.
Lift/propel.. This is a hard one and I'd personally not touch them. Changing lift into levitate could potentially break gravity in terms of single target damage. One of the reasons that lift is the way it is.. is because gravity has propel in it. If propel didn't exist as a power then I could see lift and levitate being the same power but it wasn't oversight on the dev's part but part of the initial design of gravity going all the way back into beta. You drastically increase the damage of lift by making it levitate and at the same time the usefulness of Propel in providing that oomph of an attack lessen. Lift as levitate would be up faster then propel, do compairable damage to propel, and have a much faster animation time then propel. Why have propel at that point? Altering propel into an AOE or even a Cone would alter its IO sets as has already been said but again could break controllers in terms of damage. Ultimately as a controller or a dominator you don't need either of these powers as neither radically improves control and the damage aspects of these powers has been decreased with the inclusion of ST and AOE damage powers in the epic powers, let alone the assault powers for dominators. Potential does exist to make lift levitate and propel into a targeted AOE power.. but it may break gravity controllers.
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I agree here...|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
^^^^
But id make a few more changes to wormhole; Increase the Teleport magnitude on Wormhole to affect bosses Change the KB magnitude to be KD |
Only other thing I'd "like to" see is...
Change Dimension Shift into an AoE Lift power...it's something different and at least it has a better chance of being picked/used instead of DS which hardly ever gets used
Hey, they took out the team recall power early on, so why not take another power out of the original Gravity powerset?
I have a lvl 50 Grav/Therm btw...I like the set but...yeah, "small" changes like have been mentioned would be nice.
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Clearly you're all wrong. Gravity is fine, you guys just don't love it enough and see just how special it truly is.
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Originally Posted by Montaugh
1. Crush (level 1)
2. Gravity Distortion (level 1) 3. Crushing Field (level 2) 4. Lift (level 6) 5. Propel (level 8) 6. Dim Shift (level 12) 7. Wormhole (level 18) 8. Gravity Distortion Field (level 26) 9. Singularity (level 32) |
Since we're on the subject: if the game were originally designed the way it now functions, every single Control powerset would have had its pet and AoE hold power flipped in order. The long wait to become soloable is, to me, one of the most frustrating aspects of Controller design in general.
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Like Special Olympics special?
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Clearly you're all wrong. Gravity is fine, you guys just don't love it enough and see just how special it truly is.
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Right now, I can use it to remove a group of enemies (say, another patrol, or an ambush) while I and/or my team finish up what we're working on. As an ally Phase Shift, we wouldn't be able to fight *anything.* (And if it's got a radius, which most do, you could end up leaving people outside of it who then find themselves fighting *far* more than they can handle... and possibly removing some pets from masterminds.)