Discussion: The Underground Guide with Chris "Baryonyx" Behrens
By
Canine,
Posted on: 2011-09-16 15:53 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I never knew that the Underground had been built for the purpose of hiding Tyrant's crimes from the people of Praetoria - I alwasys thought it was more like a maintenance network to keep the overground parts of the city looking as pretty as possible?
It's also sensible to call Statesman the "apparent leader of Primal Earth's forces" - as I'm pretty sure that Recluse wouldn't agree to that description - or even Prometheus 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Rather a helpful guide regarding a few of the more obscure parts of the trial that are tricky to pick up on when you're busy trying not to be squished by the mobs.
The trial's slightly longer than a Keyes in my limited experience of the three I've been on so far.
However.....
<grin>
Acquired tonight (well, last night, technically, since it's now Saturday morning....). Congrats to the team on Union who managed a run with all 5 badges acquired.
Take Clarions... lots of Clarions, and a few Breakfrees, too. There are lots of heavy grade mezzes in there, Stuns, holds and confuses.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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Or Nemesis.... or the Center.... or Reichsmann....
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's also sensible to call Statesman the "apparent leader of Primal Earth's forces" - as I'm pretty sure that Recluse wouldn't agree to that description - or even Prometheus
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I don't like the story/premise of the whole trial.
"We must find Vanessa DeVore and escort her safely out of the Underground."
"We will need to go through this still locked and fully guarded door to do so, and this big war walker, and the fighting IDF and DE, and another big war walker...twice, and these traps, and then the avatar of hamidon....all to find Vanessa DeVore who is perfectly fine and still herself and not some DE monstrosity."
1) How did she get through there alone and uninfected by the DE and alive?
2) If she went some sort of alternate route to end up on the other side of the avatar then why can't we?
3) If there is an alternate route then why isn't it infested just as bad since the avatar would likely surround itself on all sides with the same amount of protection as well as IDF attacking from all sides?
4) The chances of trying to meet up with a person who is also in motion and having this deadly force infesting the area between, just by chance, are astronomically low.
How can they possibly explain this trial's story?
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That bugs me about game design.|
Originally Posted by Canine
Rather a helpful guide regarding a few of the more obscure parts of the trial that are tricky to pick up on when you're busy trying not to be squished by the mobs.
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They make all these gimmicks, which are necessary to win(despite players supposedly, as far as story, being as strong or stronger and not being invincible without certain gimmicks that need to be done before they can be defeated; "Mary Sue" NPCs again anyone?), and the gimmicks are hard to, or nearly impossible, to pick up during the fight so you can win.
This expectation that every player must read a strategy or fail the first run(despite the story implications of failure meaning failure forever), just to complete content, is annoying at best and not fun at worst.
It just doesn't make much sense and isn't much fun when you need to really work hard before a run, or after a failure or several, to succeed.
What ever happened to learning during the fight instead of "omginstadeath!" gimmicks?
I know. suspension of disbelief is key to the game story and fun, but we're supposed to be superheroes, incarnates in fact. We're supposed to be rivaling the power of Lord Recluse and Statesman and Emperor Cole(soon at least) and even Hamidon, but we still need 12-24 incarnates to take down one supposedly "non-incarnate" AV(Siege/Nightstar are not incarnates for one example).
That just doesn't seem right.
If we're really supposed to be more powerful than level 1, and "more powerful than Statesman", then why do the mechanics make us look even weaker?
Yes, I enjoy the game, but I am not such a fan of the type of "Emperor Cole speed run, PST" and possible "farming Emperor Cole, PST, price 100 mill" gameplay just for the rewards after you beat it once for story and twice for fun and a third time for friends when we're not allowed to ever be able to legitimately solo the big bad guy to truly say "I'm just as powerful/more powerful".
Which would ruin the game faster? requiring multiple runs for rewards or fostering actual story immersion with solo battles, one incarnate player against one incarnate NPC?
If you ask me, group content should be full on open battles, like the Rikti or Praetorian invasions and some giant monsters or an archvillain for each player(like the Posi part 1 TF with the shadow/clone guys), while signature archvillain/hero content should be solo stories where the player proves their superiority in an epic one on one fight for the ages.
It just doesn't make sense that players are told, in the NPC dialog, that they "will become more powerful than statesman or Lord Recluse or Emperor Cole or Rularuu or Hamidon" and then we come to face a generic "War Walker" AV and we need 12 people to take it down.
We haven't even had a hint of facing Emperor Cole directly, but I wouldn't be surprised if it requires a few gimmicks("without which failure is guaranteed") and 24 full incarnate players, just to barely defeat him to where he can talk before he is finished.
That is not going to be very "epic" if we end up still being much less powerful than the big signature guy, despite the world of City of Heroes being predicated upon the characters, both player and NPC, having access to the same sources of power and the same amounts of power.
For example, we were given the Incarnate System as a sort of "way to become as powerful as Statesman" to "emphasize the importance of the player instead of the (Mary Sue) signature characters".
If they're going to keep the challenge level intact, so groups are required, all the way to the tip-top of the villain/heor heap....then we're going to end up feeling a lot less powerful than we did when at level 1 when we finally "need a lot of help to beat 'solo Emperor Cole' and 'solo Hamidon' ".
I think this punch-line is apt right now:
"In Soviet City of Heroes....Emperor Cole solo you!"
(insert AV/GM/Hero of your choice in place of "Emperor Cole")
I feel less like a superhero with every "new challenge" and more like an ordinary foot-soldier.
Edit:
What is this game? "City of (that big competitor)"?
It's starting to look that way with all the "raiding" just to defeat one guy who we should be just as powerful as, and thus able to solo, by the time we are able to face him.
Edit 2:
"In Soviet City of Heroes....generic elite boss one-shot you!"
This is also apt.
I agree, the Incarnate content should have been completely scalable. Run it with 24, run it solo, run it with a team anywhere in between, whatever you find most fun and rewarding. Challenges and rewards would scale also, of course, with teams of 24 facing the most challenge and getting the most reward and solos getting the least of each.
In the future, who knows? Right now it's all about forced teaming and cheat mechanics.
I like to think of it as the Well actually tricking you. You think you're more powerful, but you're actually weaker. That's what the Incarnate Trials feel like.
But hey, Signature Story Arcs just might be the thing to get those who don't like the iTrials out of them and progressing at a halfway-livable rate, once enough of them are released to get a good amount of Incarnate Rewards every week.
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I don't know about low rewards. I think the group rewards are already too slow.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
I agree, the Incarnate content should have been completely scalable. Run it with 24, run it solo, run it with a team anywhere in between, whatever you find most fun and rewarding. Challenges and rewards would scale also, of course, with teams of 24 facing the most challenge and getting the most reward and solos getting the least of each.
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I definitely don't want to see anymore "dailies" where we can't get a reward more than once per day. Those are annoying, to say the least.(weekly? that sucks completely)
I think it is far better and more interesting to solo the story and save groups for "ZERG!"(or at least something that doesn't depend on everyone listening).
It's definitely more epic, and still plenty challenging, with an AV for each person, like the Positron TF or those doppelganger tips(while solo).
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Actually, we're fighting the Wll too, not just Tyrant and the loyalists - the power of the Well is not the same as the will/mind of the Well - the path we're taking bypasses the contolling part of the Well, but still gives us access to the power of the Well.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
I like to think of it as the Well actually tricking you. You think you're more powerful, but you're actually weaker. That's what the Incarnate Trials feel like.
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| But hey, Signature Story Arcs just might be the thing to get those who don't like the iTrials out of them and progressing at a halfway-livable rate, once enough of them are released to get a good amount of Incarnate Rewards every week. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They're empowered by Tyrant through the Well - all the loyalist AVs are now cosmic level threats because of the power Tyrant has given them,a nd even his normal stormtroopers and war robots have gained new levels of power from him - while Tyrant himself has a level of power from the Well that we've never seen before.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
but we still need 12-24 incarnates to take down one supposedly "non-incarnate" AV(Siege/Nightstar are not incarnates for one example).
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| We haven't even had a hint of facing Emperor Cole directly, but I wouldn't be surprised if it requires a few gimmicks("without which failure is guaranteed") and 24 full incarnate players, just to barely defeat him to where he can talk before he is finished. |
In other words, Tyrant might defeat Tyrant - his insane lust for power and control could lead him to try and absorb more power than even he could handle - which would be a neat end to the corruption of power theme in his backstory - the man who wanted ultimate power would be destroyed by ultimate power while trying to achieve ultimate power.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
It's still not fun to feel weaker on an incarnate trial with incarnate boosts then on the old level 50 content, which still has incarnate characters to fight in Statesman and Lord Recluse.
It's not a very good way to make players want to do the content....for fun.
The way it is, people just do the content for the rewards and then say "never again will I play that annoying crap".
I know I don't give a crap about the incarnate content, other than the nice alpha unlock arc(which I wish I could flashback to, but I don't think I can).
I hope to someday solo the big bad guys: Emperor Cole, Rularuu, Hamidon and maybe even the Well.
Edit:
The funniest thing is that the devs apparently haven't recognized this desire among a lot of players despite all the "I epically soloed this GM/AV/Hero" posts in the forums and the amount of times people test their characters through this "ultimate difficulty".
Obviously, people want to be "THE hero" that takes down "THE ultimate enemy".
Yes, people enjoy big fights with many allies and even more enemies, but I bet very few ever enjoy needing a bunch of allies to take on a single AV.
Again...."In Soviet City of Heroes....Statesman solo you!"
(intentionally used the most hated "Mary Sue" in the game)
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Not the people who enjoy the Trials |
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
The way it is, people just do the content for the rewards and then say "never again will I play that annoying crap".
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| I hope to someday solo the big bad guys: Emperor Cole, Rularuu, Hamidon and maybe even the Well. |
This is an MMO - there will always be threats that can only be defeated by teaming.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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1) I enjoyed them, the first time, and the time after that when I actually could enjoy the story because I wasn't desperately trying to figure out how to win, but 50 times later and....I'm just a "little"(sarcasm of course) sick of it.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not the people who enjoy the Trials
Not gonna happen This is an MMO - there will always be threats that can only be defeated by teaming. |
If I wanted to raid every day for months then I would go to that competing game with over 10 million subscribers.
I'm still here though so obviously that isn't high on my list of "fun things", nor is it even on that list.
2) Yes, groups are great for "one small group against an army", but they lose their luster when "generic human bad guy #56" can only be defeated by 4-8 of us, or 12-24 or 30-40(Hamidon). (Edit: ....or only through a gimmick that you have to do or the bad guy is invincible, despite our players not being invincible ever.)
I'm not saying "do away with group content"; I'm saying "make content logical and fun".
Groups, either official or unofficial, should be required to get to the big bad guy, like beating through the army guarding him, but then the final bad guy should be soloable and soloed by each person.
This is sort of like what Guild Wars 2 is planning with their grouping, and like an old game called Tibia does with 4-person limiting quests locked behind areas of enemies that take much more to get through.
That way you preserve grouping and soloing and story and immersion and fun.
The game would be so much more fun if only it was logically designed to be so.
Fun games make more money as well, especially those that allow both grouping and soloing with scalable content rather than the "I can't ever find a group during my play hours because I play at night" or "I can't find a group on my empty server" or "I can't find a group for this unpopular content".
Relying on groups for everything without making everything absolutely equally rewarding and fun and populated(because doing so is impossible) will always result in problems.
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1) Vanessa is an incredibly powerful psychic. The DE fair no better against psychic trickery than anyone else. [SPOILER] And she didn't. She does not survive her encounter with the Avatar. [/SPOILER]|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I don't like the story/premise of the whole trial.
"We must find Vanessa DeVore and escort her safely out of the Underground." "We will need to go through this still locked and fully guarded door to do so, and this big war walker, and the fighting IDF and DE, and another big war walker...twice, and these traps, and then the avatar of hamidon....all to find Vanessa DeVore who is perfectly fine and still herself and not some DE monstrosity." 1) How did she get through there alone and uninfected by the DE and alive? 2) If she went some sort of alternate route to end up on the other side of the avatar then why can't we? 3) If there is an alternate route then why isn't it infested just as bad since the avatar would likely surround itself on all sides with the same amount of protection as well as IDF attacking from all sides? 4) The chances of trying to meet up with a person who is also in motion and having this deadly force infesting the area between, just by chance, are astronomically low. How can they possibly explain this trial's story? |
2,3) It is possible for a single person -especially one as powerful and resourceful as Vanessa DeVore -to move through areas unnoticed while a full league of 20 (give or take) heroes clodding about blowing up everything in their path. Large groups attract attention. It's also possible that Vanessa's travel through the are alerted them to the presence of outsiders, so they are on higher alert.
4) We aren't meeting her by chance. We are following her. Desdemona is leading us straight to her as she can sense her location and follow her.
I don't think either of those are stretches that would break the willing suspension of disbelief.
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It's still hard to believe.|
Originally Posted by CarminaGadelica
1) Vanessa is an incredibly powerful psychic. The DE fair no better against psychic trickery than anyone else. [SPOILER] And she didn't. She does not survive her encounter with the Avatar. [/SPOILER]
2,3) It is possible for a single person -especially one as powerful and resourceful as Vanessa DeVore -to move through areas unnoticed while a full league of 20 (give or take) heroes clodding about blowing up everything in their path. Large groups attract attention. It's also possible that Vanessa's travel through the are alerted them to the presence of outsiders, so they are on higher alert. 4) We aren't meeting her by chance. We are following her. Desdemona is leading us straight to her as she can sense her location and follow her. I don't think either of those are stretches that would break the willing suspension of disbelief. |
1) Why would she run into conflict where death is much more likely when she is trying to escape capture/death? That's a rather dumb tactical move for somebody supposedly smart.
2) I didn't say the meeting her was by chance, but it seems random chance that you happen to be going through the one part of the tunnels that is infested by Hamidon so massively.
3) Ok, she's so much more powerful than players that she can go completely unnoticed and unharmed(at least to the end nearly) through a war-zone and through a SEALED AND LOCKED door. She didn't open it or they would have opened fire and at least noticed her.
I don't like more examples of "players are so normal compared to the godly NPCs" "Mary Sue" crap.
My point was the whole thing depends on highly unlikely circumstances(even for CoH's world), an NPC again(or two considering Desdemona's immunity and necessity) being much more powerful than players and Vanessa and/or the players carrying the "idiot ball" that is the only way either would be so stupid as to not think of a better way to go than waltzing into this horrible situation.
After all, how could she hide from all those IDF and DE and pass right through their security barrier and not be able to hide from the other forces(PPD and seers?) chasing her?
Something does not add up.
"I'm going to hide from my pursuers by going through more well-trained and skilled members of the same force. They'll never find me even though their subordinates can."
I know, we can't expect them to make everything logical, but it gets tedious and annoying when we're forced to play idiots and adhere to gimmicky mechanics that make NPCs obviously a lot stronger/invincible while us players are never able to attain invincibility even through gimmicks.
Seriously, look at Dr. Aeon with his drones that give him a shield that you can't damage him through. We never have that option. We get a powerful shield but it has to be balanced so that we never reach that power level, such as not allowing us to attack.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
It's still hard to believe...snipage...Seriously, look at Dr. Aeon with his drones that give him a shield that you can't damage him through. We never have that option. We get a powerful shield but it has to be balanced so that we never reach that power level, such as not allowing us to attack.
Tell me, when has a single super hero ever taken down say, Galactus when he attacked earth the few times he did. No, it took most of the known super heroes on the east coast to do that.
Oh how many of the West Coast Avengers were needed to take the Hulk out when he was enraged beyond belief? All of them, with Iron Man finally knocking him out after shunting all his power to deliver a knockout blow.
How many super heroes of X-Men did it take to defeat Apocalypse that included all his minions, one of which was Angel who himself was nearly as powerful as Apocalypse. Answer, every single one of them.
My point? The elite super villains always required a team of heroes to take them out. This is the premise of what we see in City of Heroes. You complain that you cannot take out Tyrant? Did you face him in the story arch to rescue Statesman? Did you defeat him there? You weren't alone though, Manticore was with you, with or without a team. Did you take out Siege in the other story arch by yourself without a team? No because it is impossible to defeat him with a lone hero.
This is how Marvel and DC for that matter have had their universes set up since the dawn of super heroes, Superman aside, a single hero just isn't strong enough to defeat the ultra elite super villain without help or some kind of gimmick.
Accordingly, from what I am reading from your complaint, is that you want the basic premise of a super hero/villain universe changed so you can take your toon and take out a ultra elite super villains like Emperor Cole, Rularuu, Hamidon and maybe even the Well. What about being able to solo against say...Statesman or Recluse with their full incarnate powers using your incarnate powered super hero. Should you be able to do that?
I had an answer for any of my gamers who had a character become that powerful, my newest NPC. You want to have a god-like toon, so be it. Just don't expect to play it anymore because it so powerful it can take out Hamidon or Rularuu by him or herself.
Fortunately, the devs will never allow that to happen because it will completely unbalance the game turning it into a mega-power game of who has the greatest power. One that I would stop paying my hard earned money for because someone could not accept the games reality of what makes up a super hero and the ultra elite super villain.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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1) Forget comics!|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Tell me, when has a single super hero ever taken down say, Galactus when he attacked earth the few times he did. No, it took most of the known super heroes on the east coast to do that. -SNIP- [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=white]My point? The elite super villains always required a team of heroes to take them out. This is the premise of what we see in City of Heroes. You complain that you cannot take out Tyrant? Did you face him in the story arch to rescue Statesman? Did you defeat him there? You weren't alone though, Manticore was with you, with or without a team. |
I never ever said anything about the game "not adhering to comics traditions".
A) Comics can write in an ant taking down the Hulk if they want. They allowed Janet Pym/Wasp to take him down on at least one occasion I remember well.
B) This is a game that has to make sense.
2) They can have the "grand cosmic enemies" like the Hamidon if they want. Those do make sense when they eschew certain things like intelligence for raw power.
BUT, they have far too many "ordinary humans" that "become gods" all too easily and thus require gimmicks and an entire team.
3) Emperor Cole is an incarnate.
Our characters are incarnates.
They are supposed to be on equal footing when they finally clash. We're supposed to be "as strong or stronger then Emperor Cole".
4) Forget comics!
They do not have to be logical because the whole world is never portrayed and mathematics doesn't run the comics.
The game has to abide by logic, especially when it allows "an ordinary citizen" to become " a superhero/villain".
It's stupid to say "oh this ordinary guy can attain that level of power but players can't ever attain that level of power because we say so for no good reason".
Ever hear of the term "Mary Sue"? It's a character that has been given godly power and intelligence and everything so that they can never lose or appear weak.
People hate that for good reason. It's boring and annoying and sucks when your own character is not the "Mary Sue".
If the game isn't fair and balanced for both players and NPCs then there is no balance or fun or challenge. It's just "another sack of health to whack for 10 minutes", "and another....and another....".
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Not directly, but you indicate your displeasure for not being able to do what super heroes, even in comics, are unable to do, take on and defeat even the elite of the elite super villains.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
1) Forget comics!
I never ever said anything about the game "not adhering to comics traditions". |
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
A) Comics can write in an ant taking down the Hulk if they want. They allowed Janet Pym/Wasp to take him down on at least one occasion I remember well.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
B) This is a game that has to make sense.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
2) They can have the "grand cosmic enemies" like the Hamidon if they want. Those do make sense when they eschew certain things like intelligence for raw power.
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This is the reason villains like Cole are called ultra elite super villains. They are not beatable without a large team of super powered heroes/villains to take them on. In Cole's case, and his minions (Seige, Nightstar, et al), by incarnate powered super heroes/villains.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
BUT, they have far too many "ordinary humans" that "become gods" all too easily and thus require gimmicks and an entire team.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
3) Emperor Cole is an incarnate. Our characters are incarnates.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
They are supposed to be on equal footing when they finally clash. We're supposed to be "as strong or stronger then Emperor Cole".
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
4) Forget comics! They do not have to be logical because the whole world is never portrayed and mathematics doesn't run the comics.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
The game has to abide by logic, especially when it allows "an ordinary citizen" to become " a superhero/villain". It's stupid to say "oh this ordinary guy can attain that level of power but players can't ever attain that level of power because we say so for no good reason".
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Ever hear of the term "Mary Sue"? It's a character that has been given godly power and intelligence and everything so that they can never lose or appear weak. People hate that for good reason. It's boring and annoying and sucks when your own character is not the "Mary Sue".
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
If the game isn't fair and balanced for both players and NPCs then there is no balance or fun or challenge. It's just "another sack of health to whack for 10 minutes", "and another....and another....".
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What you are saying is that any and all games before this one that has someone with more power than PCs (player characters) is wrong and should be revised so that all players are equal to the bad of the bad. That is what you call a god power game and nothing is more boring to play something where you ALWAYS win and challenge is non-existent. I'm sorry, I do not prescribe to that notion or mind set and thank goodness the developers of this game do not either. Otherwise, I can only speak for myself, NCSoft would not get my hard earned money. I'd venture many others, probably a majority, feel the same.
Nice try though, you based your argument on being politically correct (fairness and balance for all). That does not work in any game of this caliber, not even in playing Pokémon or Yu-Gi-Oh! On that note, I'll leave the last word for you to make.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
I feel that the game itself needs to get back to more challenges and not be based on easy way of attaining play. I know certain areas should have it, but it still needs to have challenges to attain when playing. Where's the fun. I too like a good story that makes sense and has that feeling of logic behind it. But i feel the game has gotten away from where it began from the beginning. I like to see more team play with still options in solo with our characters exhibiting that they are powerful when they take on challenges like in UG. If a 50 character is high in level with incarnates behind it then we as a group whether we are badge collectors or individuals who like to play just for fun see the essence of the game exhibiting challenges for higher 50s. Not looking pathetic and dying at every turn.
I like the new trials that have been brought onboard. Just like to see the essence of power exhibiting in character creation through these powers on incarnates. I know this probably has been addressed someway through the forums. Not griefing. Just wanting to see a happy medium for all to play.
Regarding "our" Incarnates...
It would be nice if our level shift(s*) actually reduced the number of players required to start a TF/SF by 1 per shift.
Additionally if they were then set to allow or block "Level Reduced" Incarnate abilities as a challenge option, it would help.
This would mean for example if an incarnate ability did say 300 damage normally, on a level 10 iChallenge TF/SF it would do 6 damage/level so 60 damage during the task, rather than be unavailable as now.
Note:
* Level Shifts not iTrial Shifts, ATM only a Tier 3+ Alpha has it.
Level Reduced as in iAbilities: TF/SF Level * (iAbility/50)
Nuff Said...
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Join Chris "Baryonyx" Behrens as he walks us through the different stages of Issue 21: Conergence's new Incarnate Trial: The Underground! If you haven't had a chance to take a look at this new trial, this is the perfect opportunity to get a leg up and prepare yourself for the challenges to come! The guide provides an overview of not only the powers of the various enemies (and friends) you'll encounter in the Underground, but it will also give you tips on how to avoid enemy fire, and ensure that your allies survive to tell the tale!
Take a look!
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