Dragon Masterminds


Broken Voltage

 

Posted

im sure everyone would love the idea of having dragons, but the main reason im suggesting it is because of the noticable lack of any flying minions, sure minions can hop a ride on group fly, but i can put money of the fact that if there was a dragon summoning set, it would be the most used. And yes it would be similar to demons, but not everyone wants to be going around using a whip, and demons are alittle dark, and with the new seed of hamidon in the skies, i think its about time for a more natural flying pet.

the 1st set of dragons can have a claw attack like demons, but they attack using there feet/claws and maybe tail whips, also their arms can be the wings

when they get powered up they can have Fire Breath (in various forms) and some other form of ranged fire attack (id suggest fire ball just for the looks)

the next summon set can be armored dragons, metal plates. they can have small t-rex like arms.

and the last dragon.. idk, ether be bigger than the others and have full arms that can walk on all fours, or be upright and look like a dragon knight. (i perfer the on all fours just for the looks)

im not sure how the buffs work, so the devs would need to devide the power ups.

and when they are summoned they can swoop down from above and land.


 

Posted

Comments that I would have made in the OTHER thread about this:

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Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick View Post
im sure everyone would love the idea of having dragons...
Yeah, I am SURE that this is inaccurate. I for one, think dragons should be kept in Fantasy games where they belong. (Fing Fang Foom not withstanding, but of course, he is a stupid character with a stupid name.)

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Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick View Post
just to point out, a dragon is more realistice than a demon, dragon, living creature, demon, dead skull headed creature with no skin and comes from under ground...
Explain to me how ANY mythical beast is more realistic than any OTHER mythical beast? Oh, that's right... you can't, they are all equally improbable. Also, did you just say that dragons are more realistic than dragons (emphasis mine)... jigga what?



 

Posted

My biggest issue with this idea (aside from you dragging fantasy into my Superhero game) is that Dragons of any level of coolness whatsoever are HUGE... as they should rightly be. As such, this would not work as a MM set unless they are Drakes, or some sort of flying lizard and NOT out and out Dragons.

Now, if there were some in-story reason why there should be a Dragon-like enemy, I am not as opposed to that idea... but a Dragon MM set is just a plain /unsigned from me.

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Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick View Post
and when they are summoned they can swoop down from above and land.
Which will look WONDERFUL in all of the many, many indoor maps this game uses. Bordering on the idiocy of the Bruiser riding in on a motorcycle in a sewer, or Sky Skiffs in the Terra Volta Respec map. I think this game has enough bizarre things like this, adding MORE is not the answer.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
Explain to me how ANY mythical beast is more realistic than any OTHER mythical beast? Oh, that's right... you can't, they are all equally improbable. Also, did you just say that dragons are more realistic than dragons (emphasis mine)... jigga what?
well for one, dragons can just be dinosaur relitives, take away the fire and they are just as plasable.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
Which will look WONDERFUL in all of the many, many indoor maps this game uses. Bordering on the idiocy of the Bruiser riding in on a motorcycle in a sewer, or Sky Skiffs in the Terra Volta Respec map. I think this game has enough bizarre things like this, adding MORE is not the answer.
and yet robots being dropped from above in a cave is completly resonable, why not cool down on the dislike and look at both sides when you say something


 

Posted

and to be blunt, just cause you dont like it doesnt mean a majority of others agree with you, city of heroes is about customisation, and the freedom to do it.


 

Posted

not likely to happen.

For starters, there are no non-humanoid skeletal systems in the game. Creatures such as the Arachnos spiders are effective cheats animated around an "invisible" bi-pedal frame.

Now, that being said, there are some pretty effective tricks that can be pulled off with only a bipedal frame. Demon Summoning, for example, demonstrates that a bipedel skeleton doesn't always have to animate like a Bipedal Humanoid. The use of a Tail Rig on Demon's also removes the possible barrier of too many "action parts" through the use of wings.

However, we then get into other problems... such as the fact that there is no Artificial Intelligence in the game. All NPC characters have a rudimentary series of scripted events they work though. These limited "action scripts" are why NPC's can do things teleport through walls, something players cannot do. This is also why some enemies will suddenly take off running or flying. There is very little, if absolutely none, contextual information being fed to the NPC on the player's actions.

These scripting limitations already affect Mastermind Pets: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_No...itect_Overview

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recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
These scripting limitations pose a huge technical hurdle for a "flying pet". Contextual information on the status of the player such as flying / hovering would need to be passed to the pet. Contextual information on the enemy such as flying / groundbound would also need to be passed along to properly synch up Mastermind Pet positioning with Target positioning... neverminding that Mastermind positioning on the ground in just two dimensions is random.

This brings up another technical hurdle: Positioning

Players can use the GoTo command and other functions to direct their pets to any specific location. However, the reticule system in the game currently has no allowences for depth control. When the player places their reticule in an open space for a targeted power such as Rain of Arrows or Teleport the reticule is always set to maximum distance. There is no method that I am aware of to shorten the distance the reticule activates to when placed in open space.

This tech limitation is a major hurdle to the prospect of a flying pet. Not only does the player have to deal with a 3rd dimension, they don't have control over how that third dimension operates.

* * *

Now, to go ahead and nip this in the bud, no, animating the dragon pets to always look like they are flying when they are not actually flying is not an option. Here's what Tunnel Rat had to say on the subject of animating wings in non-flight modes: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...2&postcount=28

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I desperately wanted to have an option to turn the wings off in non-flight mode, but was unsuccessful in implementing it properly. Basically, the wings would get “left behind” the character when Flight was turned off. It was glaringly obvious, even in the short time the effects took to die out. Fixing this introduced another problem; spamming Flight would cause multiple sets of the wings to stack on each other, creating a particle overload and dramatically dropping frame rate.

It’s something I’ll continue to look into, but unfortunately there is currently no way to get this option in and have it look pretty and functional.
So, thanks for the idea Ravenick.... but without some major modifications to the underlying engine and animation systems, it is not going to happen.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick View Post
and yet robots being dropped from above in a cave is completly resonable, why not cool down on the dislike and look at both sides when you say something
No it doesn't look reasonable. That's the point. Thirty Seven is saying we need less of that silly looking crap.



Edit: Oh and for reasons stated above, /unsigned


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
No it doesn't look reasonable. That's the point. Thirty Seven is saying we need less of that silly looking crap.
Given the originally proposed C.o.T. redesign... I think our hopes for less silly looking content were already dashed upon the rocks of Korean Popularity.


 

Posted

All Super Heroes does have fanasty in it so what the hell go for it, We got Greek Gods, Vikings, Magical Weapons, Wizards and Mages and Demons I say go for it, I want this a lot.


Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.

Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFIame View Post
All Super Heroes does have fanasty in it so what the hell go for it, We got Greek Gods, Vikings, Magical Weapons, Wizards and Mages and Demons I say go for it, I want this a lot.
Doesn't matter what you want, there are technical reasons why this won't happen. Maybe in CoH2.


 

Posted

if we tell the devs they cant do something, then what chance is there that they will even try. in the future there could possibly be dragons.

characters have wings
robots have a flying animation

it can be done, it just takes time


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
My biggest issue with this idea (aside from you dragging fantasy into my Superhero game) is that Dragons of any level of coolness whatsoever are HUGE... as they should rightly be. As such, this would not work as a MM set unless they are Drakes, or some sort of flying lizard and NOT out and out Dragons.

Now, if there were some in-story reason why there should be a Dragon-like enemy, I am not as opposed to that idea... but a Dragon MM set is just a plain /unsigned from me.


Which will look WONDERFUL in all of the many, many indoor maps this game uses. Bordering on the idiocy of the Bruiser riding in on a motorcycle in a sewer, or Sky Skiffs in the Terra Volta Respec map. I think this game has enough bizarre things like this, adding MORE is not the answer.
Hey I am good friend with a Dragon, people play dragon toons all the time, this can work if the Dragons are humanoids and if you don't think Fantasy is part of a Super Hero Culture, you are wrong. Warlocks, Wizard, Witch Doctors, Greek/Norse gods, Cyclops, Minotaur, Demons, ghosts and Zombies! All of this is Fantasy Story's and Mythology and Mythology is use alot in DnD and other nerd Cluture Stuff, face it you playing a Nerd game Expect to see this stuff in this game and others.

Also Dude WTF Fantasy is in Super Heroes Comic all the time, Iron Man face off with a Dragon, Super Man I think as well and I no alot more did as well, so somebody don't no jack about Super Heroes.

Also Man there are Fantasy Base Maps been done before, Cimerora, Circle of thorns Maps, Everything in Croatoa, Shadow Shard and First Ward will have alot of nice stuff soon as well that deals with fantasy and Science.

I word like too see More Fantasy Stuff the Nither World, The Astral Plane, other Dimension, time traveling Zone like fight in WWll, Fight T-Rex in a Pre History Zone and going to the Abyss where the Demons are form.


Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.

Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Doesn't matter what you want, there are technical reasons why this won't happen. Maybe in CoH2.
Wouldn't really have to be CoH2...

Some of the technical limitations, such as the lack of Z-Depth reticule control and the animation of wings in non-fly modes, can / will probably be addressed in the normal course of game QoL development.

The biggest hurdle is the lack of contextual relation / Artificial Intelligence on the part of the MM pets. It might be possible to work around this particular hurdle with a "pre-formation" system allowing players to set the positions they want their pets to take in relation to a targeted enemy / group of enemies.

It's still a lot of work though... and for all I know... may ultimately be "functionally" impossible.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Doesn't matter what you want, there are technical reasons why this won't happen. Maybe in CoH2.
Unless you make the Dragons Humanoids, I mean people make dragons toons before and anything is possible. Have you seen the Seed of Hamidon also dude, that isn't a Humanoid Npc there man, so anything is possible, they just need to figure out how to make more none humanoids.

I believe anything is Possible and there are no limits, you just need too figure out how and that is all.


Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.

Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick View Post
If we tell the devs they can not do something, then what chance is there that they will even try? In the future there could possibly be dragons.
In the future there could also be no game.

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characters have wings
Please read what I copied above from Tunnel Rat. Just because Player's have wings does not mean those animations / riggings will translate to NPC's or behave properly on NPC models.

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robots have a flying animation
Actually you'll find that most critters in the game have an animation for being in Group Fly. It's something the animation team does in the name of game immersion.

Just because an animation exists for a power effect does not automagically mean that the object affected by that power is able to control or use that power.

Just because Robots, Demons, Ninja's, Undead, Lore Pets, and everything else have animations for being in flying modes... does not mean those NPC's using those animations and modes are fully functional in the same fully functional aspect of players using those animations and modes.

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It can be done, it just takes time
We aren't saying it cannot be done.

We are saying that it is a large amount of time and investment for what is, to be very clear, a very small payoff.

Let me be clear for myself here: My personal feelings on the presence of dragons as Mastermind pets is immaterial. What matters right now is the technology behind the game that would drive the behavior of a "dragon" pet.

Now, if you want to know my personal opinion on Dragons in CoH... I would just point out that one of the greatest SuperHero Manga's of all time... centered around hunting for little orange balls that summoned BFD's.

Big. Freaking. Dragons.

Speaking for myself, I don't want to see Dragon's Marginalized as mere "pets" subject to the whims of a player. If Dragon's were to appear in CoH, I want them to be massive Zone Events.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFIame View Post
Unless you make the Dragons Humanoids, I mean people make dragons toons before and anything is possible. Have you seen the Seed of Hamidon also dude, that isn't a Humanoid Npc there man, so anything is possible, they just need to figure out how to make more none humanoids.
Just out of wondering, how do you know that the Seed of Hamidon doesn't have a targeting system using a Bipedal Skeleton?

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I believe anything is Possible and there are no limits, you just need too figure out how and that is all.
And I believe that Gravity is a pretty finite limit. I also believe that Black is not White. Kind of interesting how "beliefs" go. You are free to believe that anything is possible and that there are no limits. That does not mean that anything is possible and there are no limits. The reality is this: not anything is possible and there are limits..


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
Comments that I would have made in the OTHER thread about this:

Yeah, I am SURE that this is inaccurate. I for one, think dragons should be kept in Fantasy games where they belong. (Fing Fang Foom not withstanding, but of course, he is a stupid character with a stupid name.)

hey now. the x men have that tiny dragon, the fantastic four had dragon man, who admittedly was an alchemically enhanced living robot, but they did cross dimensions to one filled with dragon riders. and if we get into asian themed heroes and manga, well, lets just say i can go on.

technically i dont see this happening for reasons mentioned here. also, mastermind seems like a weird fit, usually in situations where humans are put in control of dragons, they take one single one as a mount/companion, depending on the intelligence level of dragons in the mythos. but commanding multiple ones as disposable minions seems to diminish the usual majesty associated with dragons.


 

Posted

Dragons are my favourite legendary critters. That said, I don't think they're suitable for a whole Mastermind set. Perhaps the top tier critter in a set of mythical creatures, but even that seems unlikely to me.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake View Post
hey now. the x men have that tiny dragon, the fantastic four had dragon man, who admittedly was an alchemically enhanced living robot, but they did cross dimensions to one filled with dragon riders. and if we get into asian themed heroes and manga, well, lets just say i can go on.
Lockheed is the dragon from X-Men. Also, don't get me started on manga (it is perfectly fine as a media, but it is not one I really like mixed in with my western comics like X-Men, et al. Note, I am NOT saying that they don't mix, I am saying I don't like it when they do.).



 

Posted

so we should discount it because you don't like manga? ignoring that that door has been way open since issue 4, and the fact that it has is one of the reasons I stay, thats really shaky ground for a counter argument. bottom line is there are several established examples of dragons being used in comic books, dragons are not the exclusive domain of fantasy. in fact, look at pern and shadowrun, they fit in sci-fi and cyberpunk as well.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFIame View Post
Hey I am good friend with a Dragon, people play dragon toons all the time, this can work if the Dragons are humanoids
That isn't cogent to the point of this thread. And the proposed dragons were NOT humanoid.

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and if you don't think Fantasy is part of a Super Hero Culture, you are wrong. Warlocks, Wizard, Witch Doctors, Greek/Norse gods, Cyclops, Minotaur, Demons, ghosts and Zombies! All of this is Fantasy Story's and Mythology and Mythology is use alot in DnD and other nerd Cluture Stuff, face it you playing a Nerd game Expect to see this stuff in this game and others.
While there are TONS of things that get tossed into standard comics all of the time, that doesn't mean I like all of it. Also, I will note that Mythology and the Supernatural are NOT what I mean when I say Fantasy. Fantasy is, to me, the classic D&D-styled adventure: dungeons, monsters, intrepid warriors. That type of fantasy is not the type of thing I want prominently featured in this game. Does it intersect? Hell yeah... but like Cimerora, it is in isolated pockets. The majority of CoH is 'modern' cityscapes and western comic-inspired heroes and villains. I quite like it that way.

Also, the fact that two things are 'nerd-ish' does NOT mean that I have to like both of them. I love my dog... and I love to have err... relations with my partner... but I would NOT love bringing those two concepts together.

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Also Dude WTF Fantasy is in Super Heroes Comic all the time, Iron Man face off with a Dragon, Super Man I think as well and I no alot more did as well, so somebody don't no jack about Super Heroes.
Yes, and those examples are of things that just shouldn't happen in comics. There is a reason I don't know about those... if I see a cover where Iron Man battles a dragon: I won't buy that one.

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I word like too see More Fantasy Stuff the Nither World, The Astral Plane, other Dimension, time traveling Zone like fight in WWll, Fight T-Rex in a Pre History Zone and going to the Abyss where the Demons are form.
Odd, because I don't see any of those things as Fantasy. I think we are operating on two very different definitions here.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake View Post
so we should discount it because you don't like manga? ignoring that that door has been way open since issue 4, and the fact that it has is one of the reasons I stay, thats really shaky ground for a counter argument. bottom line is there are several established examples of dragons being used in comic books, dragons are not the exclusive domain of fantasy. in fact, look at pern and shadowrun, they fit in sci-fi and cyberpunk as well.
When folks are arguing about preference... both sides of that preference are fair game. I am merely discussing my point of view, I am not saying the argument is invalid just because I don't like it. But if folks are allowed to argue they do like it, I am allowed to say otherwise.



 

Posted

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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake View Post
so the upshot is " I DONT WANNA!!" /stomp feet. right?
And that makes your argument, what? "I do like it so there?"