Generally the first thing you'll hear, and hear often, is this:
SLOT END REDUCTION IN YOUR ATTACKS.
They burn more END in most cases than your toggles. Of course, don't IGNORE your toggles. And use only the ones you need - hitting an all SM/Lethal group? Then why are you running Energy defenses? Shut it off! And definitely make sure to shut off, oh, little things like travel powers. (I'm bad at that. "No, I was sure I switched to CJ.... oh, hello SJ, why are you still running?")
Other than that - I'd say having someone look over your build would help.
I know one of the main reasons that my end runs down, is I leave sprint on - and am too cheap with my slots to let it have an end reducer in it.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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I'm just scared to sacrifice damage. Because the two I have the main problem on are my PVP guys. Especially with people with massive regen powers
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Generally the first thing you'll hear, and hear often, is this:
SLOT END REDUCTION IN YOUR ATTACKS. They burn more END in most cases than your toggles. Of course, don't IGNORE your toggles. And use only the ones you need - hitting an all SM/Lethal group? Then why are you running Energy defenses? Shut it off! And definitely make sure to shut off, oh, little things like travel powers. (I'm bad at that. "No, I was sure I switched to CJ.... oh, hello SJ, why are you still running?") Other than that - I'd say having someone look over your build would help. |
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@Inconclusive
If you aren't on IOs, get on IOs. More of them. MORE IOs MORE MORE MORE.
Endredux is good. Accuracy and damage are also good, but you need a mix; you have to be able to use your powers, so you have to get their endurance lower. But, at least in PvE, if you do a ton of endredux and nothing else... You are worse off, because you're still missing and doing lowish damage.
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I don't see why you can't have 3 slotted damage and an end reduc in there as well. All the more so if you are looking at getting sets. (thinking) The only sets I could really think as being an end drain would be Stone and SS due to the Rage crash. If you don't use Mid's you should. Go here and get it. Also use the Titian Sentinel link so you can log into the game, tab out, and then use the utility feature to export your build into Mid's form. This way you can post what your build currently looks like.
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Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
I'm just scared to sacrifice damage. Because the two I have the main problem on are my PVP guys. Especially with people with massive regen powers
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Your damage is constrained by ED limits anyway. If you're using IO sets, you can easily get all the damage and recharge you can handle, but still get some endurance reduction. You may need to focus on the IO effects rather than the set bonuses (i.e. frankenslotting) but it's easily doable.
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The Mentor Project
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If I do nothing else with slotting (SOs,) it's 2acc/3dam/1end. Or, on IOs, something along the frankenslotted lines of 2acc/dam 1 dam/end 1 end/rech (or some similar mix) especially when looking at 40+. |
Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
I'm just scared to sacrifice damage. Because the two I have the main problem on are my PVP guys. Especially with people with massive regen powers
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You don't sacrifice much of anything, really.
Besides, how much damage are you doing if you don't have END to attack?
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In this case, that's actually bad advice. Heightened Senses provides defense to all damage types except Psi. The defense to S/L is lower than the other types, but is still there. It also gives +Perception, which is very important in PVP, which is apparently what he wants this for.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And use only the ones you need - hitting an all SM/Lethal group? Then why are you running Energy defenses? Shut it off!
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My personal advice: Don't chase Recovery bonuses alone. Get +Max Endurance as well. If you're recovering 1.0%/sec on your base endurance, that's 1 End/sec. If you've got the two +End accolades (+5 End each), that same recovery gets you 1.1 End/sec. Add 20% in set bonuses, and now it's 1.3 End/sec. On top of that, you have more Endurance to spend on attacks.
I can't give specific slotting advice for a tank, but for Scrappers and Brutes, getting Willpower over 4.0 End/Sec recovery isn't difficult. And if you're still running out of End at that point, you seriously need to slot endurance in your powers, both attacks and toggles.
As far as making sure that your attacks are slotted for damage goes, take a look at this, just as an example (I don't have Mids' at work, so I can't give exact numbers):
Open Mids'. Select any powersets you want. Choose a Single Target melee attack (Brawl, if you chose something without one). Put six slots in it. In the first four, slot Kinetic Combat (all but the proc). In the last two, slot the Triple and Quad from Mako's Bite. Make sure pop-ups are turned on, and mouseover the attack. Three of Accuracy, Damage, Recharge and Endurance will be red, meaning they've hit the highest effects of ED. The other attribute will be yellow. All together, you've got roughly the equivalent of 11 SOs slotted in one attack, and you get a couple nice bonuses too.
@Roderick
I may be weird, but I've almost never had to slot end reductions in my attacks. Generally, just putting them in my more expensive toggles has been enough.
Speaking of which, give some thought to where you're putting those end reductions. Since they have diminishing returns, your second end reduction in a given power is going to be less effective than your first. Rather than putting two end reductions in a single power, you might want to put one each in two powers. It depends on the cost, of course.
Another thing: if you have characters with Acrobatics to protect against knockdown, if you can work some Knockback Resist IOs (from Steadfast Protection, Karma, and/or that universal travel power set) into your build (Combat Jumping or Hover are a good place for a Karma, for instance, and you could put the one from the universal travel power into an unused vet reward sprint), you won't need it, which is a little bit of End saved right there.
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Enhancement Diversification will NOT kick in on the second SO of the same type, and a third will have minor reduction (You'll get about 90% enhancement from three 33% SOs, IIRC). Even with level 50 single aspect IOs, I'm pretty sure you can slot 2 without any loss to ED (the third will be hit far harder than the third SO was though).|
Originally Posted by Robotech_Master
Speaking of which, give some thought to where you're putting those end reductions. Since they have diminishing returns, your second end reduction in a given power is going to be less effective than your first. Rather than putting two end reductions in a single power, you might want to put one each in two powers. It depends on the cost, of course.
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Edit: After review, I realize that I was mistaken with regards to IOs. Two single aspect IOs of level 30 or lower will be unaffected by ED. Up to level 40, the second will have minimal reduction. Level 45 and 50 will have much more noticeable reductions, but a third will still be needed to reach the maximum level of ED reductions.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification should have all the details you need, should you want an in-depth explanation.
@Roderick
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... which would make it a toggle he needs, thus one not to shut off. :P|
Originally Posted by Roderick
In this case, that's actually bad advice. Heightened Senses provides defense to all damage types except Psi. The defense to S/L is lower than the other types, but is still there. It also gives +Perception, which is very important in PVP, which is apparently what he wants this for.
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Don't make me throw a poodle at you. I have them slotted for range. >.>
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1.32 E/s actually, as Recovery is a percentage of your Max the 1.1 and 1.2 are multiplied. So adding +END and +Rec makes adding the other as well more valuable.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
My personal advice: Don't chase Recovery bonuses alone. Get +Max Endurance as well. If you're recovering 1.0%/sec on your base endurance, that's 1 End/sec. If you've got the two +End accolades (+5 End each), that same recovery gets you 1.1 End/sec. Add 20% in set bonuses, and now it's 1.3 End/sec. On top of that, you have more Endurance to spend on attacks.
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To the OP...
- You aren't running Focused Accuracy by any chance are you?
- Are you using a Targeted AoE attack regularly to get more Ranged damage in PvP?
- Are you leaving a travel power on?
- Search your build for attacks that use a lot of END. Clobber, for example, is a real pig. I use an approximated cycle time for my attacks based either on logs or rough estimates from a theoretical attack chain and use END/est cycle time for each as a quick way to find those that might benefit from, say, having an EndRed instead of a proc. Yeah, adding proc damage can be nice, but it's useless if you can't use those attacks.
- You have at least two places to put a P Shifter +END proc in a WP build. Those help overcome ED cap limits on +Rec sources.
- Per the above suggestion I first responded to: Get the +10% END from Accolades and look into ways to get more +END since on a WP both Stamina and QR will be raising its value.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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I missed this on my first read. I'm guilty of this one too, which is another reason I love Ninja Run - it gives me a visual cue that it's still running. I think that Super Jump has a visual effect, but it's masked by auras and powers and buffs and thirty million explosions going off beside you. Ninja Run drops you into a crouch between every attack, and flips you on every jump.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(I'm bad at that. "No, I was sure I switched to CJ.... oh, hello SJ, why are you still running?")
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| Don't make me throw a poodle at you. I have them slotted for range. >.> |
@Roderick
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Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
I'm just scared to sacrifice damage. Because the two I have the main problem on are my PVP guys. Especially with people with massive regen powers
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It has to be said - if you are running out of End you ARE sacrificing damage.
Also what is your slotting for both end recovery powers
If you are desperate you can always pick up Conserve Energy from your epic
Keep an eye on your combat stats - in particular your end recovery and the end usage of all your attack chain+toggles - if that is greater than your end recovery you risk running out of end and need to either increase your recovery (add another EndMod, set bonuses,accolades, external buffs) or reduce the end usage of your other powers. (EndRed, set bonuses or turn something off)
Also Roderick
ED will affect the second SO - its almost negligible but it does exist - its just enought to go through the first threshold so gets reduced to about 98 or 99% effectiveness, the third one gets hit much more so - drops to about 93%, the 4th about 10% and after that you only get a couple of %
Oh and the Throw Stick temp works great at avoiding the Poodles
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
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Schedule A SOs give 33.3% each. ED starts to take effect at 70%. If you're dealing with over-level SOs, then yes, ED starts to hit you. But for simplicity's sake, I was using even-levels.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
Also Roderick
ED will affect the second SO - its almost negligible but it does exist - its just enought to go through the first threshold so gets reduced to about 98 or 99% effectiveness, the third one gets hit much more so - drops to about 93%, the 4th about 10% and after that you only get a couple of % |
@Roderick
The only thing I will add is watch your recharge.
Throwing recarge at a build with endurance problems will make it worse by allowing you to use your high endurance (and most damaging) attacks more often. Get your endurance under control then add in recharge.
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Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
I've been on this game since 07 and I've STILL never found a way to completely control my end consuming characters. I've tried picking up set bonuses that added to your recovery yet I've had character get sucked dry after a few moments.
I pvp tank I have has not only stamina but the willpower stamina plus a couple bonuses and still gets drained quickly. I'm just looking for tips. |
you sure some therms just don't have a hard on for ya?lol
Do you have the same problems for pve or is it just pvp?
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My tank has the problem most of all. My scrapper has the same defensive set but can last a bit longer. I mean, in a straight battle my scrapper would be the first to get tired in a pvp match but he doesn't a crap load of damage. It's already hard enough taking down a regen with the damage I have. I'm afraid if I cut it anymore I'll have no edge. |
Originally Posted by Lucky666
you sure some therms just don't have a hard on for ya?lol
Do you have the same problems for pve or is it just pvp? |
I have IOs on both characters mostly sets on the scrapper but the Tank is just getting completely drained. He's a WP/SS tank. Maybe it's the use of rage, or maybe even the super uppercut. (Which I know uses a crap load of end every time you use it.) but he's drained within seconds. It's easier to show people rather than explain it so I'll just post a video of how fast he's drained.
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@Inconclusive
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Are you fighting a lot of Thermal, Cold Domination, Electric, Energy Aura, or Kinetics users? Because those sets have powers in them that drain your endurance. Anything Electric in particular will drain the hell out of you just by hitting you. If you see an Electric/Thermal Corruptor heading your way, prepare to say buh-bye to your end bar. And if you've ever fought an Electric/Electric brute, scrapper, or tank, the same. A good PvP build for one of them can fire Power Sink every 15 seconds or so, and they have a toggle that will keep hitting your end bar too. Not to mention the drain in their attacks (I HATE fighting those guys with a melee character) |
Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
I'm just scared to sacrifice damage. Because the two I have the main problem on are my PVP guys. Especially with people with massive regen powers
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If you're only having trouble in PvP it could be that you aren't actually doing anything wrong with your build, and are just being hit with a lot of end draining powers. And if you are getting killed because you're running out of end, well, their tactic is working then isn't it?
It's especially bad if you are playing a set that doesn't have significant end drain resistance. Electric is virtually immune to it, and Dark has very good resistance to it, but most of the other sets are vulnerable to it to some degree.
Are you using Hasten and Strength of Will frequently? Those both have end crashes too. Hasten usually isn't that bad, but it hurts if your build already has end problems.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Nah, just one on one battles against stalkers and brutes. They can out last me. I have pretty good regen on both characters, dying is not the problem. Just once my end is gone. I either become useless or I die from the toggles turning off.
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@Inconclusive
/casts Summon PVP Numbers Person
... since I don't recall at this point if the I13 (or any post-I13) changes did anything to END use/recovery/etc. I don't *think* they did, but I wouldn't put money down on it.
I'd also either direct you down there or suggest grabbing something like CIT (or, what do they call it now... Titan Sentinel) to export your build and post it. You should have better recovery than my Fire/SS and I've lasted a fairly long time in a 2v1 (mine being the 1) on him. (Then again, my MA/Regen Stalker tended to burn through it, too, when I stuck around to scrap - which was frequently, unless I was trying to be a distraction.)
Diminishing returns does affect recovery in PVP, but not by a large degree.
Edit: IIRC it affects max endurance bonuses, too.
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Show us your build? I run a LOT of toggles on my WP toons, and I never run out of endurance. Oh, I definitely agree with what Gaia said--If you're running out of endurance, you can't attack as much. That is obviously detrimental to your DPS. You might even detoggle. And that is poor for your health.|
Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
I have IOs on both characters mostly sets on the scrapper but the Tank is just getting completely drained. He's a WP/SS tank.
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Also, in addition to all these excellent suggestions for fixing your build, lets not forget the obvious solution--Cardiac alpha and Ageless destiny.
I've been on this game since 07 and I've STILL never found a way to completely control my end consuming characters. I've tried picking up set bonuses that added to your recovery yet I've had character get sucked dry after a few moments.
I pvp tank I have has not only stamina but the willpower stamina plus a couple bonuses and still gets drained quickly. I'm just looking for tips.
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@Inconclusive