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Originally Posted by 8-J
I understand that programming pets AI so they will just stay in one place when you want them to is probably a technical nightmare, but what about just giving the MM the ability to put an Immobilize effect on them, say magnitude 2 bazillion? No matter how their AI works, they will quite certainly stay put if they are immobilized.
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http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mastermind_Strategy
You can use the existing MM controls to tell each individual pet exactly where to stand.
Something else I have to re-learn... all of my MM binds 
But yes, the goto command can be used on all of your pets, a certain type of pet, or individual pets. Goto there and go Passive = what you want (AFAICT).
Yes. Goto is helpful, but sometimes I just want them to really really stay, like tell them to stand there and make sure they know I mean it. Like, perhaps in a way that even my Thugs MM's Bruiser might understand?
You're not traveling outside of the tether range, are you? There's some sort of server limit to how far away you can travel from a pet before it auto-respawns closer to you. If that's what you're talking about, I think changing it would be non-trivial (might increase server load or somesuch).
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Yes, unfortunately they don't STAY there. As soon as they see something to attack they charge off into melee range. since fixing the stay command is apparently not possible without rewriting the pet AI allowing us to immobilize them would be a possible solution.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
You can use the existing MM controls to tell each individual pet exactly where to stand.
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It's what the OP wants for some values of what the OP wants. "Stay there" is not absolute; if you get a particular distance away from them they'll respawn to be nearer to you, and I think when that happens they revert to Follow mode automagically. This is non-optimal if you're (say) parking them in the corner of a giant outdoor hunty-hunty map so you can go looking for the one guy you actually need to kill to GTFO.|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
But yes, the goto command can be used on all of your pets, a certain type of pet, or individual pets. Goto there and go Passive = what you want (AFAICT).
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My usual field expedient to that is to dismiss them and resummon them when I need them. That can be non-optimal if you have all six, plus the two augmentation powers, and the Freaks are ripping your face off 'cause you accidentally landed too close to the "... and Guards" part of the mission objective? But I freely acknowledge that is an "addressable with a steaming mug of pay attention" problem. :)
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That sounds more like you're leaving them in Aggressive mode than the aforementioned respawn/range-limit problem.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes, unfortunately they don't STAY there. As soon as they see something to attack they charge off into melee range. since fixing the stay command is apparently not possible without rewriting the pet AI allowing us to immobilize them would be a possible solution.
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No, it's just hyperbole. By "as soon as they see something to attack" I actually meant "as soon as something registers on their threat tables as a valid target" I just think the first sounds better.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
That sounds more like you're leaving them in Aggressive mode than the aforementioned respawn/range-limit problem.
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Basically if they are in defensive/stay mode when they decide to attack something they will almost always opt to charge into melee range. They will generally make ranged attacks first if possible but as soon as those are recharging they will ignore the stay command in favor of moving to use their melee attacks.
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Oh. Well, yeah, you're gonna want Passive/GOTO for that, not Defensive.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Basically if they are in defensive/stay mode when they decide to attack something they will almost always opt to charge into melee range.
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I don't know if this is really addressable on a large scale. It's sort of built into the Archetype that Masterminds are expected not to park their henchmen somewhere and wander off without them. Just look at Supremacy. There are times when it's handy, yeah, but it's an off-label application, as they say in pharmacological circles.
I can safely validate that 'Stay' and 'GoTo' are as much use as a chocolate kettle.
On the surface of the sun.
Only in Passive does it actually work. Otherwise? Ho to melee range and Brawl, even for robots!
*SIGH*
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The Red Revanchist routinely gets annoyed with her Spec Ops guy for that. His rifle is fancier than hers is, it cost a fortune, and the best he can think to do is hit people with it? Why am I bother hiring mercenaries if this is best they can do? Bozhe moi.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Otherwise? Ho to melee range and Brawl, even for robots!
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I think the point you're missing is that we don't want to park our pets and wonder off on our own. We want to park our pets in a position where they can safely make ranged attacks while we work to keep the enemies at range.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Oh. Well, yeah, you're gonna want Passive/GOTO for that, not Defensive.
I don't know if this is really addressable on a large scale. It's sort of built into the Archetype that Masterminds are expected not to park their henchmen somewhere and wander off without them. Just look at Supremacy. There are times when it's handy, yeah, but it's an off-label application, as they say in pharmacological circles. |
For example suppose I'm on my Bots/Traps and fighting a DE Greater Devoured. Now GD's have Footstomp which will decimate any pets in range when they use it. The ideal solution would be to immobilize the GD with Web Grenade, park my bots at range and let them pound on him. The problem is I can't do that, even with stay the bots will all charge into melee, even the Protector Bots who don't even have a melee attack. The end result is that the GD uses Footstomp and turns my bots into scrap metal.
Now there are work around, for example my tactic here is to immobilize the GD and then use provoke to make him attack me, as long as I remain at range he won't use footstomp even if my bots are in melee. Still it would be nice to have an alternative solution where I can make my bots remain away from him.
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Ah!|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I think the point you're missing is that we don't want to park our pets and wonder off on our own. We want to park our pets in a position where they can safely make ranged attacks while we work to keep the enemies at range.
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Well, short of the code jockeys removing their melee attacks altogether, which I doubt would fly, I don't see how you're ever going to be able to prevent that from happening altogether. They have the attacks, they're going to try to use them when the others aren't available. You can prevent them from performing the melee charge by switching them to passive mode when they've used their ranged attacks, then back to aggressive/defensive when they've had a chance to recharge.
Again, I suspect requiring that kind of direct management to optimize performance is a deliberate part of the archetype's design. Over the years the designers have shown a marked aversion to any sort of "autopilot" mode - hence the restrictions, for instance, on what can be done with macros, the limitations on powers being put on auto, and so forth.
TLDR: I agree it's a pain, but I suspect it's a pain on purpose.
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Well what would be nice is if "Stay" meant "Stay". Essentially an AI setting that means they only use powers if they are already in range rather than moving into range |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Well, short of the code jockeys removing their melee attacks altogether, which I doubt would fly, I don't see how you're ever going to be able to prevent that from happening altogether. They have the attacks, they're going to try to use them when the others aren't available.
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to use a power.
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| Again, I suspect requiring that kind of direct management to optimize performance is a deliberate part of the archetype's design. Over the years the designers have shown a marked aversion to any sort of "autopilot" mode - hence the restrictions, for instance, on what can be done with macros, the limitations on powers being put on auto, and so forth. |
We aren't asking for an autopilot mode but the ability to put more effort into controlling our pets if we want to. Currently our only (useful) commands in Aggressive or Defensive mode are "Attack my Target" and "Follow". Trying to use "Go To" or "Stay" to take a more active role in their positioning is pointless since they completely ignore it. Providing some means to actually control their positioning in combat would be less "autopilot" than simply putting them into Follow/Defensive and charging into the middle of a mob.
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| TLDR: I agree it's a pain, but I suspect it's a pain on purpose. |
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Actually that wouldn't work either. Some pets have no melee attacks whatsoever (not even Brawl), and they still attempt to emulate a certain memetic berserker from another game.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Well, short of the code jockeys removing their melee attacks altogether, which I doubt would fly, I don't see how you're ever going to be able to prevent that from happening altogether.
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I'd like this so that I can force them to use ranged attacks on an enemy and NOT CLOSE with them.
right now, you can't command "Attack at range" you can only command "attack" or set them on aggressive or defensive and they'll attack themselves...
yeah, after the fight, they'll walk back to the place you commanded them to go...but they don't stay there for the fight
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Actually though it came across butchered the guy really seems to have a workaround for the pet movement issue. If we had a command that applied an unresistable toggled immobilization to our pets we could easily get them to stay at range because they could not run. The only issue i see with this is that i dunno if they can separate the immob from knockback protection. They might be built together. THEN AGAIN if this ability also applied the exact opposite amount of kb anti-protection (lol) it would equate to working as we would like it to.
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That shouldn't be a problem. Immobilize and Knockback protection are completely separate.|
Originally Posted by Soul_System
The only issue i see with this is that i dunno if they can separate the immob from knockback protection. They might be built together.
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As for the overall suggestion, if they can work a high level immobilize into the Stay function I'd considerate it adequate if they are working on actually fixing the commands shortly after (Then removing the immobilize).
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
I was just going to suggest that adding a Mag 100 immobilize might do the trick but I see someone beat me to it. That is how powers like Rest keep players from running around and why Turrets and Lightning Storms dont chase you.
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You've never played Gravity Control, have you? I've got three with that set, and know from lots of experience that while most immob powers have a -KB effect, the two effects are not even slightly tied to each other.
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Originally Posted by Soul_System
The only issue i see with this is that i dunno if they can separate the immob from knockback protection.
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I was just thinking with the time set i'd finally mess around with the last controller primary I've not messed with much. It is indeed gravity :P. I'm just so used to seeing -kb on immob and having overzealous controllers preventing me from mitigating dmg lol :P.|
Originally Posted by FlashToo
You've never played Gravity Control, have you? I've got three with that set, and know from lots of experience that while most immob powers have a -KB effect, the two effects are not even slightly tied to each other.
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P.S. I rolled a grav/stun dom and am having alot of fun abusing the knockup/knockbacks hehe
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I understand that programming pets AI so they will just stay in one place when you want them to is probably a technical nightmare, but what about just giving the MM the ability to put an Immobilize effect on them, say magnitude 2 bazillion? No matter how their AI works, they will quite certainly stay put if they are immobilized.