Do the Devs remember Hero Corps?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-25 11:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I think that's less of how the Crey are being written now. And where they went to as time progressed.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm talking about what they represent now. It's quite possible they started out with altruism in mind. It's been about seven years since I last read that history, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy. But as I understand the controversy around them, it's that heroes are getting rich fighting crime, so it's never really certain where their loyalty lies. Would they sacrifice profit for heroism or would they do the other way around?
Either way, with Crey's taint, they're pretty much a shady organisation now, and that's the kind of storyline I'd expect to see. Then again, when their headquarters gets bombed AGAIN... Who knows? |
The story arcs you run with them are about exposing them. They've been exposed. Now they do things differently.
But I could be wrong.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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"Time" in City of Heroes progresses with levels, at least for the most part. At level 1, we see the Circle of Thorns as just a magic cult that Baron Zoria founded in the 1950s. By level 40, we know that they're what's left of the ancient Oranbegans. At level 30, everyone thinks that this Nemesis Army we're seeing is led by just a copycat of Nemesis, not the real deal. By level 40, we know that the real Nemesis is back. At level 40, no-one knows much about the Malta Group, to the point where people don't believe they exist. By level 50, law enforcement and government agencies are aware of them and, in Crimson's words, "Now they'll have to worry about more conventional threats."|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I think that's less of how the Crey are being written now. And where they went to as time progressed.
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City of Heroes has a time line that's pretty much set to evolve as you go through the levels, and yet very few new additions really do much to integrate themselves within that timeline. We have nonsense like Vanessa DeVore being the well-known leader of the Carnival as early as level 40, while this isn't actually revealed in-story until Harvey Maylor's first mission at level 45+. Not only does this serve to rob new players of the experience of exploration we went through when we first joined now that all the game's secrets are supposed to be public knowledge, but every time the developers contradict their own stories, they render existing story arcs - good ones, quite often - as tripe that makes no sense. I'm sure Angus McQueen feels really silly these days, constantly sending heroes to stop the second Rikti invasion THAT ALREADY HAPPENED THREE YEARS AGO!!!
Ahem...
Writing stories in continuity is hard, I don't question that. But the solution to this is to try harder, not to just damn continuity and let God sort it out. Because He won't. And we'll be left with a whole bunch of contradictory stories that don't tie together into any logical progression of events.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Haven't run the arcs in awhile, but isn't it every time they get exposed the Countess just manages to evade it all and has a team of lawyers and spin doctors change the whole thing in the public's eye so they don't seem bad? Even when you go to arrest her she manages to get free.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I think that's less of how the Crey are being written now. And where they went to as time progressed.
The story arcs you run with them are about exposing them. They've been exposed. Now they do things differently. But I could be wrong. |
Do the devs remember Hero Corp?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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There's still the open question as to whether Hero Corp is really a big scam in which the company uses its supers to clean up the ordinary crime and then imports its own super villains to justify the continuation of their contract with the city/country/whatever.|
Originally Posted by Quinch
Too complicated. He just needs a giant magnet.
But on the whole HC/Crey connection, it seems to me that there's potential for a great story there. Factions within Hero Corps, Crey subversion, internal investigations... I'm partial to the idea that Hero Corps is a "good guy" corporation that's in the process of being taken over by Crey as a puppet company. |
The Rikti War probably lent them some legitimacy, in that cities with Hero Corp contracts were more or less accidentally prepared to defend themselves against the invasion. I'd suspect that Hero Corp's advertising department plays heavily on that theme nowadays; especially in light of the "second invasion". Just when you thought it was safe to cancel your contract, *BAM*. Rebecca Foss couldn't have asked for better if she'd arranged it herself.
As far as that goes, it would be interesting to get a glimpse of the public face of the Paragon Protectors in light of the renewed Rikti hostilities.
In a way, the lore of the entire game is due for something of an overhaul.
I should double-check the current dialog of the Hero Corp Reps. With all of the changes to the "difficulty slider" it may not be so obvious any more that Hero Corp is accomplishing their job by manipulating the media to warp your hero's public image. It maybe that Hero Corp, from a game standpoint, has received a bit of a "whitewash".
In any case, I don't see them as a "good guy" company that naively ends up being manipulated into a Crey puppet. Best case is that Rebecca Foss actually believes in her ideals but, like a scientist who fudges his results to get a grant, for the greater good, she is willing to look the other way and overlook certain irregularities in the name of achieving the greater good of protecting everyone everywhere while making a living doing it.
I don't actually believe that the "best case" represents the actual case, frankly.
I'm not sure if the devs remember it or not.
I think the previous poster nailed the way Hero Corps was originally meant to be portrayed. As several of the responses here imply, business in the comic book world is invariably evil. The existing information on Hero Corps seems to fall into this pattern. Those plaques couldn't shout "they encourage crime!" any louder if they had sound files attached. Further, remember that Crey was the primary antagonist in the pre-alpha days. It essentially controlled every faction, and I'm sure this would've turned out to be the case with Hero Corps. Probably, this notion eventually evolved into giving Crey the Paragon Protectors and their attendant story. I suspect that this is one reason Hero Corps was never developed further. We already have an "evil suits" faction (Crey), and most players seem to be believe our "hero" faction (Longbow) is also evil. I suspect that every time Hero Corps comes up in a meeting, someone says, "But we already have that covered."
Frankly, as you can probably tell from the tone of this post, I don't like the self-righteous tone of the anti-Hero Corps characters featured in the Hero Corps plaques, and I don't like the notion that every heroic organization in the game is really evil (with the exception of Vanguard, the one supposedly "unaligned" organization, which paradoxically is the one everyone thinks is "good"). I get to read the devs' pontifications on how "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!" in the neverending stream of Praetorian content. I don't care to get hammered over the head with "wanting to make money is evil," too.
Plus, I have a Hero Corps character, and I don't want to see her entire background invalidated the way my entire supergroup full of Praetorian Earth characters (created circa 2005) was when Going Rogue came out.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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If there are any irregularities happening in Hero Corp, they're at the upper management level. There's no reason at all that a rank-and-file employee of the company can't be just as idealistic as Statesman while wanting to make a living out of his talent instead of giving it away for free.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Plus, I have a Hero Corps character, and I don't want to see her entire background invalidated the way my entire supergroup full of Praetorian Earth characters (created circa 2005) was when Going Rogue came out.
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I can also how they could be "behind the scenes" irregularities. That is, Rebecca Foss and Kit Rafter could be 100% legitimate about their commitment and ideals. It could be that the corruption, if it exists, operates at a bureaucratic level two or three levels removed from their view. It might be that they are hopeless idealists who only believe that they are running the company when the true seat of power rests somewhere behind the throne, with the deliberately faceless VP's that do the day-to-day management of the corporation.
Then again, it may be simply be that Hero Corp is exactly what they claim to be and there is no corruption at all. Who can really say? If your hero works for a Hero Corp that is a legitimate company getting a bad rap, well, nobody can say that it isn't the case.
Duck for cover! It's Guy Perfect, the world's most pedantrous grammar Nazi!
People seem to be using "corp" and "corps" interchangeably, so I thought I'd point out which group is called which and what each word means.
Freedom Corps
Pronounced "core," is a military organization consisting of officers and enlisted personnel or of officers alone. Longbow is a division of Freedom Corps.
Hero Corp
Pronounced "corp," is a shorthand form of the word "corporation," and in this context refers to an organization that works for profit. They very much are mercenaries, except they work for a company rather than freelance.
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Well, that's the best way to handle any faction, of any alignment, but limitations of the game design and writing time tend not to allow for it. Witness the fact that every single employee of the Crey Corporation is trained for combat and attacks heroes and allied factions on sight. (And more puzzlingly, since every project Crey works on is underhanded, meaning they get thwarted by our characters, what pays for all those forcefields and freeze rays? Does Countess Crey have an endless supply of gold? Maybe that's what she's keeping in that cave she hides in.)|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
If there are any irregularities happening in Hero Corp, they're at the upper management level. There's no reason at all that a rank-and-file employee of the company can't be just as idealistic as Statesman while wanting to make a living out of his talent instead of giving it away for free.
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If the devs couldn't convince the player base that there could be Praetorian heroes who aren't members of the Resistance, I don't see how they could do a "villainous leadership" story for an otherwise heroic faction. Plus, what happens when characters do the arcs exposing the corruption? Doesn't that demand that all the non-villainous employees resign? See the problem?
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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As I recall, the backgrounders call the organization "Hero Corp," while the guys in the uniforms who adjust difficulty are called "Hero Corps Field Analysts." I have no idea which is "correct." Maybe the easiest thing is to say that the organization is Hero Corp, and its employees and directors are the Hero Corps, which really doesn't clear things up much.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Hero Corp
Pronounced "corp," is a shorthand form of the word "corporation," and in this context refers to an organization that works for profit. They very much are mercenaries, except they work for a company rather than freelance. |
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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Well, you just explained why there aren't any Hero Corp story arcs. /shrug|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Plus, what happens when characters do the arcs exposing the corruption? Doesn't that demand that all the non-villainous employees resign? See the problem?
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I suppose that the story could be that you prove once and for all that there is NOT any corruption and, in fact, that Hero Corp has a shadowy nemesis, Villain Corp, that has been deliberately targeting them all of these years. heh
The flip side could be that you reveal the corruption and that Rebecca Foss pledges to clean up the company and restore it to the path of good and righteousness that she had originally intended for it to follow. The only thing Americans like better than an underdog is a reformed villain. ;-)
Hey, that even fits with the whole theme of the past few issues, go figure. :-p
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Eh... take links between them and Crey. |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
So, if Hero Corp was really just a "grey" employer, then they'd be hard to make into an interesting story, I think. Even Praetoria wasn't really "grey" in the end. It's just hard to generate drama if there's no conflict.
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(Which I did - needs to be updated some, but I created "Hero Corpse" early on in AE to do just that.)
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The Praetorian counterpart of Hero Corp?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
... Hero Corp has a shadowy nemesis, Villain Corp, that has been deliberately targeting them all of these years. heh
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"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
You know, as silly as "Villain Corp" sounds, the idea is growing on me. *laugh*
I picture a situation where a VP inside of Hero Corp is the "CEO" of "Villain Corp", a "company" that sells expertise - If you want to steal a case of Wonderflonium, then you contract with Villain Corp. They provide the plan, the manpower, and the equipment. You provide the dollars and any special intelligence required to complete the mission. The "CEO" works from inside of Hero Corp and uses his/her position to insure that assets of Hero Corp will be assigned elsewhere or even situated so as to provide a distraction from the REAL crime. That is, Villain Corp initiates a bank robbery and Hero Corp sends a team of crime fighters, while the theft of the Wonderflonium goes on under the radar and if it IS detected, the heroes that deal with it are deliberately setup to be weak against whatever force the Wonderflonium thieves are equipped to bring to bear.
There could be some real potential in something like that, and it lets Hero Corp be a "good" company while still preserving the given story. I like it. :-)
Perhaps Hero Corp has been pushed out of Paragon because Freedom Corps does it just as well for free? I could easily see Hero Corp working in poorer countries at a premium. Supply and demand.
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One of my very oldest characters works for Paragon Light & Power. He got his electric blast powers in an accident at work and figured, well, why quit the day job? PL&P has a good benefits package and, unlike electrical workers, superheroes don't have a strong union. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If a world is teeming with super-powered beings, it makes sense for them to get more "ordinary" jobs using their super powers.
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Actually, no. Hero Corp. was pushed out by protests (and a mysterious bombing, IIRC.) There's just as much room for them in Paragon otherwise as there is for security companies and bodyguards alongside the police force(s.) |
Originally Posted by RadDidIt
Perhaps Hero Corp has been pushed out of Paragon because Freedom Corps does it just as well for free? I could easily see Hero Corp working in poorer countries at a premium. Supply and demand.
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You want someone short term with more muscle to protect some asset? You COULD go through Freedom Corps, true - if it's in Longbow's interest, if they don't have to suddenly redeploy elsewhere, if if if, or you could go to Hero Corp and have some superpowered guards on duty 24/7 regardless of what's going on outside until the meeting/museum display/whatever is done. You know they're dedicated to what YOU need.
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This is why I don't see Hero Corps becoming a lackey of Crey Corp. Within their own field they're a big deal in their own right. Even at "five times their budget", they can absorb the loss of a building. My guess is that Crey pushed them out and then Crey kept them out, all the while making public noises about how wonderful it would be for there to be an alternative to relying on big-hearted do-gooders for protection.| With over 100 franchises world wide in 2001, Hero Corps is the group most often called upon to act on the Special Council’s recommendations. While many of the older, established, pro-bono hero organizations resent this fact, there is little they can do until they come up with a plan to offer the same depth and breadth of service that Ms. Foss’ multi-national corporation has to offer. |
There's lore around somewhere to the effect that Statesman welcomed Hero Corps back to Paragon City after the War, not embracing their philosophy but stating to the effect that "Anybody who wants to help cleanup the mess and make things better is welcome here." That's a little telling, I think. Paragon City is still refraining from becoming a customer of the company, so it isn't really clear just why they are here but that's maybe up to the players to decide.
(Yes, I was calling them Hero Corp, but that's because I've always thought of them as a corporation and routinely forget that the actual name of the company is "Corps".)
***EDIT***
With Freedom approaching, the devs will be pushing new content out a lot more frequently than in the past. Players who enjoy playing an employee of Hero Corps would be well served to open a suggestion thread asking for a Hero Corps costume pack as a Paragon Market item.
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Technically, Crey IS Hero Corps' Villain "Corp."
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Well, you just explained why there aren't any Hero Corp story arcs. /shrug
I suppose that the story could be that you prove once and for all that there is NOT any corruption and, in fact, that Hero Corp has a shadowy nemesis, Villain Corp, that has been deliberately targeting them all of these years. heh |
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No, the explanation I referred to is the explanation for the rise in super-villain crime in cities that contract out to Hero Corps. That isn't anything to do with Crey Corp. |
Originally Posted by Scythus
Technically, Crey IS Hero Corps' Villain "Corp."
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The Crey connection to Hero Corps is pretty well limited to Paragon City and then (ignoring the possibility that Crey Tanks were the armored raiders that razed HC Paragon) only after they were threatening to pull out of Paragon City. If Crey has anything to do with them now that they're back in town, we haven't heard about it.
Whether it was Countess Crey, Justin Sinclair or someone else who manipulated the city government to prevent the rebuilding of HC Paragon back in 2001, that person(s) appears to have other fish to fry nowadays. It's worth noting that both Countess Crey and Justin Sinclair have their own private army of supers now, so that may account for their current lack of interest in Hero Corps.
As for Hero Corps' "curse", there's already so much super-villain activity in Paragon City that you'd have a difficult time noticing an uptick brought about specifically by Hero Corps.
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Exactly where is that said? |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
No, the explanation I referred to is the explanation for the rise in super-villain crime in cities that contract out to Hero Corps.
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| The Crey connection to Hero Corps is pretty well limited to Paragon City and then (ignoring the possibility that Crey Tanks were the armored raiders that razed HC Paragon) only after they were threatening to pull out of Paragon City. If Crey has anything to do with them now that they're back in town, we haven't heard about it. |
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In the "Globalism and the 90's" section of the history backgrounders.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Exactly where is that said?
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Originally Posted by Globalism and the 90's
" One puzzling side effect that Hero Corps public relations has tried to downplay is that, while crime rates drop in most cases, each city has actually seen an increase in super-powered crime. It’s almost as if opening a Hero Corps franchise attracts costumed villains. Conspiracy theorists claim that the Hero Corps itself creates these super powered crises in order to justify their high fees. While there is no proof for such accusations, many cannot help but wonder if there might be some truth to them."
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I think the timing from the razing of Hero Corps' Paragon City HQ and Countess Crey's offer to bankroll them a new HQ kind of implies that yes, it was Crey tanks that were responsible.
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Wow, it's been a long time since I last read that history.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
In the "Globalism and the 90's" section of the history backgrounders.
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| I'd have to check with Paragon Wiki to be sure, but I think that the history plaques also make a brief, oblique reference to it. |
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| Oh, I have no doubt that it was Crey that did it. I've posted my own take on the situation a couple of times upstream already. Still, it's all speculation at the current time and has to be treated as such when talking about what it all means. |
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Hero Corps uses nearly all costume pieces players have available. The only issue is their chest straps, but they look nearly identical to the Stealth chest piece, so that issue is resolved easily.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
With Freedom approaching, the devs will be pushing new content out a lot more frequently than in the past. Players who enjoy playing an employee of Hero Corps would be well served to open a suggestion thread asking for a Hero Corps costume pack as a Paragon Market item.
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Yeah, Hero Corps seems to be a pretty legit corporation. Crey's attempts to take them over should not be seen as a "taint" in Hero Corps, as they're pretty much the victims at this point.
I'd love to see some story arcs that revolve around Hero Corps and Crey's attempts to snatch them into its web.