Super Reflexes: is hitting the soft-cap that crucial? (and other questions)
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Just face the facts that your logic and mathematics paled in comparison to the god of reason and maths that was BunnyAnomaly.
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Originally Posted by Werner
There is, but it's an ugly, ugly thread. However, it IS where I got the maths quote in my sig from. The specific post is December 4, 2010 at 1:10 PM, and describes in detail what the test and graph are all about. I suppose it might show different times in other time zones, though. Easy enough to scan down the page for the graph, of course.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=245914Here's the follow up thread that I was banned from posting in since the first thread actually started getting to me (plus was taking me away from more important things): http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=246478 |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Here's another build soft-capping */SR (a claws/SR in this specific case). It uses NO IO sets (or uniques such as the steadfast) only generic IO commons plus Nerve Core Paragon. It also demonstrates the how much Incarnate abilities (in this case Nerve Core Paragon) can buff SO/common IO's builds.
As for crucial to hit 45+% ... no I personally don't think if all you are doing is running on teams normal content/missions being a few points shy is "life or death", but it will help your badge hunting for damage taken *wink*. It's life or death if you want to solo AV's, Pylons, +4/x8 spawns of any variety, and do other Silly Scrapper Tricks. But it is SO easy on an SR it's almost neglectful not to.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.94
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Soft Cap sans Sets (v1.00.i19 Nerve Core Paragon) : Level 50 Science Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(3), EndRdx-I(3), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(34), Dmg-I(39)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(11), DefBuff-I(13), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(13), DefBuff-I(34), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 4: Slash -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(5), EndRdx-I(5), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(29), Dmg-I(48)
Level 6: Spin -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), EndRdx-I(7), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(21), Dmg-I(21)
Level 8: Follow Up -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(9), EndRdx-I(9), Dmg-I(31), Dmg-I(31), Dmg-I(40)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 16: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 18: Focus -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(19), EndRdx-I(19), Dmg-I(23), Dmg-I(29), Dmg-I(50)
Level 20: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 22: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(23), ResDam-I(42), ResDam-I(43)
Level 24: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(42), DefBuff-I(42), DefBuff-I(43)
Level 26: Eviscerate -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(27), EndRdx-I(27), Dmg-I(31), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(50)
Level 28: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(33), DefBuff-I(43), DefBuff-I(50)
Level 32: Shockwave -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(33), EndRdx-I(37), Dmg-I(37), Dmg-I(37), Dmg-I(48)
Level 35: Evasion -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36)
Level 38: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(46), ToHit-I(46), ToHit-I(46)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(45), EndMod-I(45), EndMod-I(45)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Nerve Core Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(15), Heal-I(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(15), EndMod-I(48)
Level 4: Ninja Run
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Was the OP concerned about the cost of the more "standard" IO sets or the cost of power choices.
I was getting the impression that they wanted to pick all of DB's attacks and still fit in Aid Self and Physical perfection. And have super speed.
I looked at trying to do that in mids last night and I couldnt get that to the soft cap either. Not enough slots.
Giving up the fighting pool makes it a lot harder.
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You're pretty much spot-on, it is the cost of the power choices and I'm taking nearly every DB attack with current build, aid-self and super speed lol. You're a prophet! I think I might scrap the epic power pools though and just go with the soft-cap. |
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Was the OP concerned about the cost of the more "standard" IO sets or the cost of power choices.
I was getting the impression that they wanted to pick all of DB's attacks and still fit in Aid Self and Physical perfection. And have super speed. I looked at trying to do that in mids last night and I couldnt get that to the soft cap either. Not enough slots. Giving up the fighting pool makes it a lot harder. |
Plus I wanted to know more info in general about the soft cap for future builds, I really enjoy super reflexes. The AV info was very helpful. Thanks all
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The only huge investment you will find with SR is if you want purples for rech.
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Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
Hi guys, I'm an old player coming back. I'm trying to make a speedster character.
Is hitting 45% defense really that important for super reflexes? It seems like a huge investment and |
Ahh..the softcap... For the record, my SR scrapper has 48%+ Def to all positional (51% when I have vet drone out, until it gets killed in 2 seconds or less), still there are time I just don't believe the softcap is the be-all and end-all it's made out to be.
Take my WP Brute -- I had her up to 46% S/L Def, and she was really sturdy as heck. But I really wasn't satisfied with her AoE. So, I gutted one of her Melee attacks containing Kinetic Combat, along with Tactics which had that ToHit IO set that provides SL def (can't remember name). Suddenly she's at 40.9 S/L Def, but she has Mu ST Lightning and Mu Ball Lighting slotted with good IO Sets. With the extra AoE damage (and reactive of course), she's taking out Mobs much faster, thus isn't getting hit as much, thus seems MORE sturdy in play.
Softcap is really good, but some things (like losing AoE potential) aren't quite worth reaching it, IMO.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Ahh..the softcap... For the record, my SR scrapper has 48%+ Def to all positional (51% when I have vet drone out, until it gets killed in 2 seconds or less), still there are time I just don't believe the softcap is the be-all and end-all it's made out to be.
Take my WP Brute -- I had her up to 46% S/L Def, |
We're having a discussion about SR, which is not WP.
It's also not a WP Brute, so it won't have 2500+ HP.
WP also has some 50% SM/L resistance with tough, and a WP Brute will have anywhere from 100-130 HP/S Regen.
We're not dummies, we understand you can get by on Resistance based builds or even DEF based builds without being softcapped - but getting softcapped on SR is not hard, its not expensive, it doesn't cost you anything build wise and is a no brainer.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Softcap is really good, but some things (like losing AoE potential) aren't quite worth reaching it, IMO.
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There is practically nothing to give up for softcap for SR.
You would be able to have 45% softcap defense in m/r/a, with all DB attack powers, SR powers, Aid Self, SS and Body Mastery pool if you choose the Nerve Alpha at level 50.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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Seriously what other powers would you take? Its not like the epics are all that great or something for melee characters. You got more than enough room in a build now to take all this stuff. The IO costs can be very small if you use A-merits and AE tickets.
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Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
 For me that is an investment. You're taking 2 other pool sets to supplement your secondary and need to take a couple powers just to get to weave, you've taken practically the entire secondary already. Not to mention the slotting. Do you not take aid-self as well? Why would a build not take aid-self with SR? Are small purples not as useful if you hit the soft-cap? For the crash in elude wouldn't just a properly timed blue inspiration prevent your toggles from coming down? I mean you have 3 minutes to work with and go crazy with elude. If the threat survived it probably deserved to lol. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I agree, getting to 45% on a SR is pretty easily achieved. But punching it up to 59% and no serious sacrifices!? That I find very hard to believe even if you're wealthy enough to spend for the tops on everything. Unless perhaps you're talking a BS/SR and you're ignoring Melee def and planning on riding Parry for most of that.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I personally went for 59% def and don't even feel like I made any unreasonable sacrifices. If I stayed at 45%, I would have slightly more recharge, which would end up being slightly more damage - that's about it.
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I'm looking at my build and I'd have to gut most of my S/L resistance (drop tough to just the Steadfast res/def) lose almost all my Regen, +recharge, +Max HP, and +recovery to pay for the improvements, and even then I'd only get melee and ranged to the 59% cap, my AOE would still be only 50%ish.
I figure I gotta be overlooking something.. Care to some of your tricks.
Oh wait, I think I just realized one of them. I forgot about the PVP +Def IO. Glad Armour, I think. With that in play I could probably juggle enough to get melee and ranged to 59% and AOE to 56% I'd bet. Still, I'd have gutted a lot to get there, and that's still only close.
So, please share a trick or 2?
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And, actually, if you're running on high diff settings, you can easily see a lot of +acc, +tohit, and def debuff of 60-80% and in one hellish spawn, or two spawns that overlap. Granted, capped DDR helps a lot, but if you're sitting at 45% even, and you lose 4% def and are still facing the +acc and +tohit enemies, you'll want the purples for sure.
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Originally Posted by Selina_H
No - that's why it's called the soft cap: It's the point at which, although technically you *can* add more defense, any extra will not benefit you. Enemy mobs always have a minimum 5% chance to hit you; that's just the way the game is designed. More defense won't change that. Unless you're being defense debuffed, or the enemies have +to hit, that purple won't do anything.
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I don't take aid self myself either on SR. Greens animate a lot faster than aid self, and can't be interrupted. If I'm getting rocked hard enough that even with popping an orange or 3, and capped def and I'm popping greens fast enough that I might run out, and STILL need Aid Self after, then I'm probably getting rocked hard enough that I'll never get Aid Self to go without getting interrupted. It's either run away or heroic last stand time. I'd rather die fighting than trying to get aid self to fire off.
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Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
Do you not take aid-self as well? Why would a build not take aid-self with SR?
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Go to CoHtitan website. Type in defense effectiveness. It will explain everything on the defense softcap.
Hey all
I'd like to thank you all for this thread. I was specifically looking for anything to help me with my Katana Super-Reflexes as I was having trouble figuring out soft-cap issues. After reading all the posts here, I went to mids and after playing around some I came up with what I feel to be a solid build.
I know just enough to make Mids work, and am really just a casual CoH player, though I get on when I can. The discussions here really helped me in developing the build and looking at things twice, even three times.
Thanks guys and gals.
(fyi, I did post the build under Kat/SR build critique/advice if anyone would care to look. thanks again!)
Risky Kisses 50 ss/will brute
altaholic from this point on...
About the usefulness of aid self....i'd say it's not useful at all. With softcapped defense you will not be hit much,you will have ZERO downtime when going solo,and in teams your teammates will provide the healing/recovery/buffs/help you will need. You won't even notice the necessity for a self heal,least of all one wich is interrptible.
True,on occasion enemies will get a lucky hit,but in this case only two scenarios can happen:
scenario 1) you get hit,you lose some health,but attacks do not happen often enough or hard enough to be a real danger. By the time you finish off your opponent,your natual regen or a teammate have already taken care of the damage you suffered. Melee bosses can sometimes hit for 1000+ damage,but tough will reduce that,and it is unlikely for them to hit 2 times in a row. And if they DID hit 2 times in a row,aid self wouldn't have saved you. Wich brings us to.....
scenario 2) you get hit so hard that a boss or AV oneshots or twoshots you. Pretty bad luck,but that's the weakness of SR and all pure defense builds. You are invincible until you suddenly die. No healing will save you from that. Well,maybe an empath with a timely intervention,but certanly not aid self.
Or,it could be a large mob hitting you from all sides,in wich case the rate of attacks that get through your defense will quickly add up to a lot of damage. Again,if attacks are coming this fast,you won't have the time to fire aid self before being interrupted,and if you losing health fast,it cannot keep you alive. It' way faster to use green inspirations while trying to take out the most dangerous enemies.
You may need aid self if you are using SOs and are far from the softcap,but once you get to high defenses,it becomes useless. The things that can kill you with 45% defense will STILL kill you if you try to heal yourself. And by taking weave you also take tough wich can help a lot.
In my experience,i think defense is weak when it's your only survival tool and it's below 35%. Above 35%,you start noticing the effects,but it's still low against bosses. At 90%,you can solo bosses without worries and are pretty survivable. At the softcap,you feel immortal....... until you die :P
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You can pop a blue, because it isn't recovery, it's a straight up addition of endurance, in the same way that using a green inspiration does not count as regeneration, it's a heal. Not being able to recover endurance just means that your normal endurance recovery will not function for 10 seconds, things like blue inspirations, Transference (from Kinetics), and the Performance Shifter Chance for +End will still give you endurance.|
Originally Posted by ricohdah
It's been awhile since looking at Elude but it used to be that when it crashes, endurance drops to zero and is unrecoverable for 10 seconds. No amount of blue inspira would replenish your end. Have they changed that?
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No amount of popping blues will prevent your toggles from dropping when Elude crashes, since your endurance drops to 0 regardless of how much you have. If you pop a blue just before your end crashes, you've basically just wasted an inspiration, because it will take away the endurance you just gained with the crash.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Actually, Aid Self is great for AV soloing on a Super Reflexes. I think greens are better in normal play, but I think describing Aid Self as useless is overstating the case. As far as the interruptibility, slot one or two interrupt reductions and practice your timing.|
Originally Posted by Nitrogen_Star
About the usefulness of aid self....i'd say it's not useful at all... scenario 2) you get hit so hard that a boss or AV oneshots or twoshots you. Pretty bad luck,but that's the weakness of SR and all pure defense builds. You are invincible until you suddenly die. No healing will save you from that. Well,maybe an empath with a timely intervention,but certanly not aid self.
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With good hit points, slotted Tough, and properly slotted and used Aid Self, the "you are invincible until you suddenly die" feeling should go away, replaced by simply "you are invincible".
These days, though, I'd probably go with Rebirth, and at that point, Aid Self might be a little redundant in most circumstances.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Well, since you can soft cap an SR long before level 50, Aid Self will still be useful until you get to that point. |
Originally Posted by Werner
These days, though, I'd probably go with Rebirth, and at that point, Aid Self might be a little redundant in most circumstances.
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It also remains useful if you ever exemp below level 45 as well.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Some enemies and situations (albeit very rare) can still one shot everything wich is not a tank or a strong brute. Also,i take your point,and aid self could be useful in some situations,but only if you are softcapped first and take advantage of the high defense to gain some time to use it. If you sacrifice defense to have it,it's not worth it.
If you can still manage to have power slots free in some way,then by all means take it,but renouncing tough and weave for an interruptible heal won't improve survivability
It's threads like this that make me wish I could respec into Willpower. So many people insinuating you're an idiot if you play a non-softcapped /SR... 
*slumps off with his 38% defense, patting [Elude] on the head as he goes* Don't worry little guy... I still remember you.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I think most people just didn't agree that it costs a ton, or requires sacrifices.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
It's threads like this that make me wish I could respec into Willpower. So many people insinuating you're an idiot if you play a non-softcapped /SR...
*slumps off with his 38% defense, patting [Elude] on the head as he goes* Don't worry little guy... I still remember you. |
If you are playing on just SOs, I don't think 39% makes you an idiot.
However if you have any plans to use IO sets at all, it is so easy to softcap SR that it seems a huge waste not to.
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I quite simply refuse to drop 3 powers from my build to pick up Weave, not to mention the number of slots I'd have to move to make use of it and Tough.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
However if you have any plans to use IO sets at all, it is so easy to softcap SR that it seems a huge waste not to.
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I'm also slotted heavily (yes, with IOs) for recharge, damage and recovery. I'd rather end a fight as quickly as I can and move on to the next, as opposed to sticking my tongue out going "Neener neener, you can't hit me!" Time spent not punching faces is time spent not having fun. Your mileage may vary.
Don't get me wrong; I fully recognize that Super Reflexes probably isn't the powerset for me... but back in 2004, it was the closest option I had. Like I said, I'd be much happier if I could switch to Willpower, and I likely wouldn't get nearly as annoyed when everyone says that softcapping SR is the only way to play it.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I still think we could get you softcapped without those, but it would be a bit of a pain without somewhere to tuck the steadfast unique (it can be done, but most likely at the cost of rech).|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I quite simply refuse to drop 3 powers from my build to pick up Weave, not to mention the number of slots I'd have to move to make use of it and Tough.
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Although I would ask, honestly, what it is that you have in place of tough and weave that you feel is more important.
Those two powers are basically a given on any melee build I work out for myself.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I'm also slotted heavily (yes, with IOs) for recharge, damage and recovery. I'd rather end a fight as quickly as I can and move on to the next, as opposed to sticking my tongue out going "Neener neener, you can't hit me!" Time spent not punching faces is time spent not having fun. Your mileage may vary.
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There is no need to give up one for the other.
In fact, you can have both of those as well as good slotting for other build needs like recovery, +damage, etc.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Don't get me wrong; I fully recognize that Super Reflexes probably isn't the powerset for me... but back in 2004, it was the closest option I had. Like I said, I'd be much happier if I could switch to Willpower, and I likely wouldn't get nearly as annoyed when everyone says that softcapping SR is the only way to play it.
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Some good info in here and such, thanks for a good read...
I just wanted to comment on this main aspect of the thread:
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Not just to Deus, he just summed things up there:|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I think most people just didn't agree that it costs a ton, or requires sacrifices.
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The cost is based on entirely subjective things. To some, those extra powers don't mean much, if anything at all, while, to others, they mean a great deal.
I've been battling many decisions like this with other characters.
I could improve these numbers by dumping powers that I enjoy having (because they are fun and make me smile and also come in useful now and then) in order to pick up other powers in order to add some valuable percentage points.
Not everyone is going to agree on the "cost", because we all value different things based on our own preferences.
I value visuals, silliness, concept more than the pure numbers.
It doesn't make me greater or lesser than anyone else in our mutual enjoyment of this video game pastime (not that anyone was putting anyone else down... it just happens often enough that it is worth stating).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Here's the follow up thread that I was banned from posting in since the first thread actually started getting to me (plus was taking me away from more important things):
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks