Tanks, Healers and the Trinity? Needed?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-19 16:32 in Player Questions
We need the "trinity" about as badly as we need nuclear powered nose-hair clippers.
A set of *anything* works well.
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This, to a ridiculous degree. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
A set of *anything* works well.
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Quote:
Not really I've done an all stalker rsf before and even an all blaster stf. |
Originally Posted by Eric Nelson
This, to a ridiculous degree.
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With ios and how easily we can pop candy in this game its quite simple to step into something as long as you know, you dont get too many idiots on your team lol
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
We need the "trinity" about as badly as we need nuclear powered nose-hair clippers.
A set of *anything* works well. |
But I need nuclear powered nose clippers...
I saw them on QVC just once before the whole embargo thing, and didn't jot down the details
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Paragon Studios prides themselves on developing a game where no single archtype is inherently critical to any particular content that is in the game. |
Originally Posted by LokaiDraxmartis
So is it possible/viable to get a group together consisting mostly of controls/debuffing/buffing and get through all the content? or at some point are tanks(i assume brutes villian side) really required? i puzzled on this question quite a bit!
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The flip-side of not really needing a "Holy Trinity" for content is that... you don't need a "Holy Trinity" for content.
Cases in point on why this can somehow be a bad thing can be found in threads from the likes of Kioshi or Johnny Butane; threads which go to extensive lengths to convince the player-base / developers that massive changes must be undertaken on existing archtypes such as Stalkers and Tanks. The question of whether or not the need, or lack of a need, for a specific Archtype or combination of Archtypes results in obsoleting any particular Archtype, as the linked threads demonstrate, does tend to lead to heated arguments.
My own personal opinion, and the one I think the developers share, is that choice of Archtype comes down to playstyle.
Basically: Play what you want to play.
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Um...no kidding, my post AGREED with Bill... |
Originally Posted by _SPYDER_
Not really I've done an all stalker rsf before and even an all blaster stf.
With ios and how easily we can pop candy in this game its quite simple to step into something as long as you know, you dont get too many idiots on your team lol |
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Quote:
If ever there was an appropriate time for a /jranger response, this is it.| Tanks, Healers and the Trinity? Needed? |
Simply put... No.
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Let's put it this way. Last night my friends and I did an ITF. We had 3 buffers, a Cold, a Force Field, and a Thermal. For fun, the Tanker decided to turn his toggles off. As he went along he turned off more and more until he was just running travel powers.
You don't need the Trinity.
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Not only are teams with multiple sources of control, buffs, or debuffs feasible, but they're incredibly powerful. Most of the single-AT superteams that I've heard of consisted of archetypes with buffs and debuffs that stacked up to awesomeness, and nigh-invulnerability.
As for your example of feeling less useful as a Tanker when there's lot of control, I know exactly what you mean. If you're concentrating on, well, Tanking on your Tanker, multiple effective Controllers can pretty much take over for you. I've found it useful to not really think of mezzing ability and tanking as seperate things when building a team, but merging them into 'aggro management'. In that category, they're really doing the same thing.
As others have said, the 'holy trinity' is not needed at all in CoH. You can make workable teams with just about any combination of ATs. Some combinations work better than others (and yes, the holy trinity works quite well), but it's pretty hard to put together a team of more than about five people and not have it work at all. Having a competent player is infinitely more imporant than having a certain archetype in this game.
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Sure, Defender only TFs are some of the easiest teams I've ever run. There is no content where a particular AT is required although there are a few situations where certain ATs/Powers make everything a whole lot easier but they are not that common.|
Originally Posted by LokaiDraxmartis
So is it possible/viable to get a group together consisting mostly of controls/debuffing/buffing and get through all the content? or at some point are tanks(i assume brutes villian side) really required? i puzzled on this question quite a bit!
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Off the top of my head:
STF: Due to his high defense (prior to taking down the towers) it is easier to handle Recluse if you have a character with Confront or Taunt simply because they are auto hit although other methods do work.
LGTF: Taking down the green mitos without holds is technically possible but doing so really, really sucks. Obviously Controllers/Dominators are best here but other ATs have at least some options for holds so they aren't required.
Barracuda SF: Due to the AT specific temp powers a Defender or Mastermind makes this SF a whole lot easier.
Hamidon Raid: Regeneration is the only fully reliable form of damage mitigation in this raid so characters with those sort of powers (Empathy in particular) are always useful. That being said, the availability of the Rebirth Destiny helps a lot here.
Pretty much anything else can be done by a team of decent players regardless of AT.
I still don't get it.
I have played this game for over 6 yrs and have yet to see a healer AT.
And what does relgion have to do with any MMORG anyway?
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A number of MMOs use it, or at least started that way and have moved away from it.
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Originally Posted by Cinder_Flux
And what does relgion have to do with any MMORG anyway?
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Try 3 Gun Bane spiders. No, not Crabs... well, Crabs if you really want to. 3 Banes with Guns are an awesome sight to behold and teams will love to have you along for the 90% damage boost alone, not to mention the sweet, sweet +DEF you three will bring.
Well, to be fair, *at low levels* with the original five Hero ATs, a Holy Trinity does work very well and can cover each other's weaknesses and may be considered the best combo. But, they're not *necessary*. Any trio is *sufficient*.
At higher levels and with the Villain and Epic ATs thrown in, the Holy Trinity is just about as good as any other trio, and in fact, with the 'damage multipliers' mentioned above, other trios will outshine the Holy Trinity.
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Haha... I missread your posf :P
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Originally Posted by Eric Nelson
Um...no kidding, my post AGREED with Bill...
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Quote:
Heh, no worries. |
Originally Posted by _SPYDER_
Haha... I missread your posf :P
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*psst* Unless you're discussing architectural features it's spelled "Archetype"... |
Originally Posted by je_saist
...archtype...
...archtypes... ...Archtype... ...Archtypes... ...Archtype... ...Archtype... Basically: Play what you want to play. |
All that aside i agree with your post. Quote:
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Originally Posted by Psychoti
Try 3 Gun Bane spiders. No, not Crabs... well, Crabs if you really want to. 3 Banes with Guns are an awesome sight to behold and teams will love to have you along for the 90% damage boost alone, not to mention the sweet, sweet +DEF you three will bring.
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So the trinity isn't needed and any team can succeed (i've been on all-Tanker ITFs that just waded through all the enemies and eventually stomped Nictus Rommy into the ground), but it's stacking of buffs, debuffs, and controls that make for the most powerful teams. i've seen that rattle players used to other MMOs when they ended up on Trial/SF/TF teams that were all support ATs. What really really makes it worthwhile is the amazement they express later as the team just destroys everything in their path without a "tank" or "DPS".
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Nor have I. Though at times I've heard people calling for one and at other times I've heard people claiming to be one. |
Originally Posted by Cinder_Flux
I still don't get it.
I have played this game for over 6 yrs and have yet to see a healer AT. |
At that point I usually cross the street and avoid eye contact.
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Sure. In CoH, 8 support characters actually do a lot better than 4 support + 4 DPS. I once did a +4/x8 players debuffed, enemies buffed LRSF with an all-Corruptor team long before any incarnate stuff or inherent fitness came out, and it was the easiest LRSF I did.
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Originally Posted by LokaiDraxmartis
So is it possible/viable to get a group together consisting mostly of controls/debuffing/buffing and get through all the content?
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*kicks spall-cheque in the binaries*
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
*psst* Unless you're discussing architectural features it's spelled "Archetype"...
All that aside i agree with your post. |
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*"spell" |
Originally Posted by je_saist
*kicks spall-cheque in the binaries*
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The "cheque" used is also incorrect in context. I assume je Saist was being humorous.
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Calling for balance changes isn't necessarily the same thing as claiming that an AT is useless or wanting to exclude them from teams. I suspect this sort of paranoia (not helped by certain people's hyperbole) is what prevents some people from even admitting that some characters are weaker than others.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Cases in point on why this can somehow be a bad thing can be found in threads from the likes of Kioshi or Johnny Butane; threads which go to extensive lengths to convince the player-base / developers that massive changes must be undertaken on existing archtypes such as Stalkers and Tanks.
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Some ATs and powersets are demonstrably weaker than others, and this should be pointed out repeatedly until the problem is fixed. The people who did this have always been vindicated, most recently with the (significant) buffs to energy aura and fiery aura - long noted as sub-par armor sets prior to the buffs. Even tankers and defenders got buffs to their inherents over the cries of those who insisted they were 'fine all along'. One way of looking at all the stuff in recent content that disrupts the ability of melee characters to perform e.g. Apex blue patches is that it's to address the complaint that blasters, despite being at a significant survivability disadvantage, didn't offer much of a damage advantage over melee characters. Now they do, and this trend should be continued and aggressively expanded.
In order for choice of AT to come down to playstyle and playstyle alone, all ATs have to be roughly equal in power. Otherwise, certain playstyles are always going to be mechanically disadvantaged and that detracts from everyone's fun.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonym|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
The "cheque" used is also incorrect in context. I assume je Saist was being humorous.
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Sew ewe sea, it is eh quirky intentional misspelling
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| In order for choice of AT to come down to playstyle and playstyle alone, all ATs have to be roughly equal in power. Otherwise, certain playstyles are always going to be mechanically disadvantaged and that detracts from everyone's fun. |
City of Heroes is based around the concept that not all Archetypes are equal. Some archetypes have various powers and / or abilities that complement other archetypes powers / abilities.
The reality is, some archetypes in CoH are ALWAYS going to be "mechanically disadvantaged" by virtue of what those archetypes and their powers actually do.
For reference:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...38&postcount=2
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...11&postcount=7
http://zerias.blogspot.com/2008/01/c...t-you-are.html
Article on Inherent Imbalance and Beta-testing posted on Thursday 26th of July 2007 8:37:37AM. (note, last link will change due to the unique; i.e. why did Koshi do it like that; blog system)
So mostly my friends and i are leveling and we are all jumping toons trying to find the best combination. While i have a corrupter, tanker, and various other characters i began to consider the idea when watching the fights last night and seeing that we had 2-3 controllers on our team, and because of the large amount of CC(earth and fire) felt like i didnt do as much on my tanker as i may have wanted. Still it made me think of CoV when i played that and we never really had any tanks or healers.
So is it possible/viable to get a group together consisting mostly of controls/debuffing/buffing and get through all the content? or at some point are tanks(i assume brutes villian side) really required? i puzzled on this question quite a bit!