Freedom's Quarantining of Content
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2011-07-16 15:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Yes, that's kind of the point.
The devs wants people to pay for their stuff. (Obviously, it's how they get their sandwhiches) in order for that to happen they need to have something that people want to pay for. The endgame content seems to be a reasonable substitute for that.
It doesen't run into the "paying for power" problem, since you actually need to play the content to get the shinies. There's less justification for restricting Praetoria and First Ward though.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Honestly here is what we got.
There is us. The community. Who allready pay perfectly happy. -Nothing- is being taken away. So long as we don't stop paying.
Before when you did NOT pay you GOT NO ACCESS AT ALL.
Please explain to me how this splits anyone at all besides returning, non-paying customers who right now can't play whatsoever from the people like us, who make up the community as is.
*removed tired mode edits*
D: Toss me a hai @DarkNat My Fify glory: Renzer Dark/Dark Corr., Renzro Dark/Dark Def., Amartasu Dark/Dark Scrap.Less important ones: Fire/Fire Blaster,Ice/Ice Blaster,Ele/Ele Brute, Mind/Storm Troll,Fire/Kin Corr.,Bots/FF MM., DB/Regen Scrap.
I'm wondering why you don't mention CoV? Surely that was an even bigger splitting of the playerbase? EAn entire set of 1-50 content, Powersets and ATs were only for people who payed for them.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Quote:
I disagree with this slightly. I believe the reason individuals won't be able to purchase incarnate access is to push them -HARD- in the direction of subscribing. Ouro aside, with two character slots total. They will hit 50 and be like everyone was before iTrials. They'll wonder "what next". Then they have to choose. Either nothing, or subscribe. This is a big part of why the trials are the focus IMO, because the more there is when freedom hits, the easier it will be to market. Not so much GG's theory that for some reason the devs feel our cosmic level characters cant take part in cosmic level stories solo, dispite already doing so, before being cosmic level.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
A paid-for power set will not actually give anyone any more strength than another power set. It is for this exact reason that there will be no way to purchase access to the Incarnate system.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
I am not crying doom, and I'll repeat myself saying that there needs to be incentive for Free players to become VIPs, but limiting access to certain parts of the game is not the way. In this particular case, I actually want to be proven wrong, and I welcome any responses that attempt to do so. I only ask (for whatever that is worth) that you approach it objectively and avoid outlier examples and/or what-if situations. As this is is a massive multiplayer online community, I am referring to the general majority of the player base. |
The goal here is to entice players to play this game, then hook them into subscribing. The monetization does two things. First it trains players that spending money give more access to the game, making it easier to get them to jump into a subscription. Second it supports the subscription income allowing them to budget new things that would have been out of reach. Additionally it allows them to modify their content creation pipeline to better bring items to the player.
When you do tiered memberships like freedom will, (freedom isn't F2P so much as tiered), you create senarios similar to the one they discribed with Ingame stores. The first tier should be easy, if not trivial, to work through. When they do they will learn, this action->that result. The action being "pay money", and the result being "get game access". This isn't so much a community split, as it is a trial. In a F2P game where the only pay options are microtransactions, it splits the community by making every action gated. However in a tierd system, these gates can be sidestepped, and thats the explicit goal of the system here.
However to do it right, there needs to be a way for them to try what they're missing. The best way is one I suggested when they first annouced Freedom. That is, giving paying customers tokens that they can give to free customers. They would allow for access to content that's...above their pay grade if you will.
But really, the way their doing it is about the only way it could work. That is, a microtransaction system supporting subscriptions.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
Honestly here is what we got.
There is us. The community. Who allready pay perfectly happy. -Nothing- is being taken away. So long as we don't stop paying. Before when you did NOT pay you GOT NO ACCESS AT ALL. Please explain to me how this splits anyone at all besides returning, non-paying customers who right now can't play whatsoever from the people like us, who make up the community as is. *removed tired mode edits* |
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Quote:
I agree with that. In fact, it is downright justified. My one concern was that eventually the amount of Incarnate content would be so great that players would spend most of their time post-50 as opposed to on alts (like a certain other game out there). Granted, that's "eventually," and I am sure that it will get to a point where people will have to start choosing which powers they would like to focus on, simply because of the amount of work/time it will take a character to get a rare/very rare power in each and every slot. I merely wanted to point out a potential problem before it actually became an issue, a preemptive strike if you will. Of course, that may just be my cautious nature.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
The devs wants people to pay for their stuff. (Obviously, it's how they get their sandwhiches) in order for that to happen they need to have something that people want to pay for. The endgame content seems to be a reasonable substitute for that.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
Honestly here is what we got.
There is us. The community. Who allready pay perfectly happy. -Nothing- is being taken away. So long as we don't stop paying. Before when you did NOT pay you GOT NO ACCESS AT ALL. Please explain to me how this splits anyone at all besides returning, non-paying customers who right now can't play whatsoever from the people like us, who make up the community as is. *removed tired mode edits* |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
I'm wondering why you don't mention CoV? Surely that was an even bigger splitting of the playerbase? EAn entire set of 1-50 content, Powersets and ATs were only for people who payed for them.
|
Yeah...wow, I honestly don't think I have a worthwhile rebuttal for that. While I still wish it were different and Free players had a chance to visit Praetoria, I suppose I would have felt the same back when CoV was originally released.
/thread? It may just be that I've had a long day, but that point of view hadn't occurred to me!
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Quote:
Threadjack: At the 2:38 mark, there is a screenshot from CoH, when he's saying, "In a multi-player game, players are content."|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
The popular point of discussion on that thread is this video on Microtransactions.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
I feel at least partially responsible for this thread so I'll rebuttal. I was there, and it wasn't a huge split of the playerbase. There were a few that didn't get it, sure. I had only one SG mate that didn't get CoV for personal concept reasons and didn't explore that content until it was made free. That player, and I say this as one of my SG mates and a friend, was an outlier individual based on all I saw on the forums and in the various global channels I'm a member of. Just about everyone that was subbed to CoH, got CoV. From reasons ranging to supporting the system to thank goodness we could finally play the other side, they were there. CoV hoped to get new customers, but really we're a niche market, and they already won most of us over. Few who were subscribers to CoH didn't get CoV. Eventually it was combined as part of the whole system and became a moot point. I imagine Going Rogue will be the same when there's enough other Paragon Point stuff to make that a profitable move on the Dev's part, or at least make it an option on the Paragon Market, if it isn't already at launch.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
Admittedly, I was not around when that happened, (I did not start playing until about a month after Issue 9 went live, and the two games had been conjoined). But you raise a very good point, one that may debunk my argument already (Oh no! haha). I imagine it would have been a similar situation, leaving a lot of players feeling that they were missing out on opportunities by not having purchased CoV which, in turn, compels them to buy CoV. That is, after all, the end goal of this new business model: to leave players wanting all the stuff, compelling them to fork over the dough.
Yeah...wow, I honestly don't think I have a worthwhile rebuttal for that. While I still wish it were different and Free players had a chance to visit Praetoria, I suppose I would have felt the same back when CoV was originally released. |
The big point that Winterminal is bringing up is the endgame, and one I really have strong feelings about. Why keep players who potentially want to be involved in a system that benefits from the most people being involved in it, out?
From that, I mean the Trials. NO, I don't mean the Incarnate system.
Give them other rewards if need be, locking Incarnate powers, Astrals, Imperials, etc. away from them entirely if need be, but why keep them from accessing a system that benefits the most the more people want to be involved in it?
That's assuming they have enough incentive to reach 50 to not be able to explore it...
To a lesser, but not in a less concerned way, one can count Praetoria and the new zone associated. If vet players are coming up with new characters to run through it, who are these, yet unknown and uncounted f2p folks going to team with (key word being uncounted)? With a lack of ability to communicate, and veterans most likely running off as soon as they can to play shiny new content they can't even access to communicate with them in... well you see the point of concern. Remember, f2p members don't get access to global channels to know there's activity in zones they can't reach, not that it would make them happy to know if they could. We can only assume there'll be a ton of new f2p members to help them in their journey.
Yes, I can say with confidence there will be Veterans who will go out of their way to make the new f2p members at home. Our community is really great like that. However, how many will that be when there's new shiny stuff compelling us to do something that leaves them out of the picture entirely? How many are going to join as f2p, or even return as Premium, that will want to explore the new low level content with PuG's? I imagine most Premium will be returning to play with old friends... oh wait, they're probably going to be doing something they can't even access unless they're just Premium too... Sure that might get a few more to pay eventually to see what all the new stuff is about but...]
Like Winterminal, I'm not doomcrying. I honestly think Freedom will be one of the best things to happen to the game if it's handled properly. I know a couple of friends that will be back (hopefully one of them being the one I mentioned before) I will share my time with them as best I can along with the members of my SG that still continue to play and will want to explore this new, unaccessable to others content.
In the meantime, I'll express my concern about how that may effect the communities we have, and may gain/lose with the changes coming.
If they've considered them consciously and are taking the risk, I'm spitting in the wind. However, if they see what I say and go "we should consider that" I've achieved my goals, whether they use it or not.
I'm still here after close to 7 years, so I guess that says something about my trust in them.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
Is there an Eco in here? |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Eco. Eco. |
I have a friend who plays that game but who played this game (and another game in the NCSoft stable with the same initials as the guy on the dollar bill, and no, Illuminati fans, I don't mean Adam Weishaupt) *first* - and he has several alts over there and doesn't raid. Hmm. Wouldn't it be funny if, in the not so distant future, that game became all about alts (due to infection, as it were, from former CoH players) while this one became all about raids (due, in part, to a potential influx of THEM!). Would the subscription numbers undergo a similar reversal?
/e ponders shoes.
/e realizes not wearing shoes.
/e ponders socks.
As a change of pace for me, I'm going to keep this short. While I appreciate the arguments raised in this and other threads, I have no problem with what we know thus far regarding what F2P accounts get access to. Relatively speaking, they get a lot for paying zip.
From what I can see, the (business) point of this hybrid model is to lure people in and convert them to paying customers. F2P members should get a great deal of time in-game to make a decision about going VIP, and I'm sure some will, some won't.
I realise some will see this as elitism. I don't, as if I walk into a chocolate shop, I may get a free eclair, maybe two, but if I want the full box, I'm going to have to buy it. As nice as the other customers and the staff in the shop are, I'm not going to get unlimited access for free.
SalckTech, I agree with you, I definitely don't think they should get unlimited access for free.
The entire point of my original post was to demonstrate how fine of a line there is between giving f2p players too much and giving them not enough. Also it is hard to judge what will be of value to f2p players (i.e. incentive to pay) and what won't. I just want to reinforce the importance of testing prices out, seeing what appeals to the masses and what doesn't, etc.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
I don't think the fundamental views expressed here are different. F2p folks should get reduced/less access, However, short of the unique monthly arcs (which I think are a neat idea) I'd rather restrict different kinds of content from them than what they can participate in.
I would prefer suggestions like:
F2p don't get IO drops, nor can they use IO's. Premium will never see a purple/PvP drop without paying for it. Same applies to IO salvage. F2P can't use the market, though Premium can so they can buy the salvage to build their non-purple/PvP drops; but only paying customers get salvage. If they don't want to buy the salvage, or have friends give it to them, that's okay, they can sell the recipes 
AE tickets for F2P and Premium can buy DO's, SO's, the Payoff Badge, and... that's it. Oh, and they can't make arcs, only play them.
Regular, Hero, and Villain merits are for paying customers only. F2P gets no reward table at the end of a TF (though they get the xp they earned, a nifty badge, and an accolade with a boost if they do them all!) Premium can get the old IO drop chance table we used to get.
The Incarnate system is for paying customers only, there are no incarnates in the F2P and Premium zones... However they can run the trials for other prizes/goodies- use similar rules to the merits above.
Let them play and do everything, but lower the rewards. If folks just want to play and don't care about the rest, then great!; but some F2P sees what the Incarnate system is about (many probably trying this game coming from end-game-raid style games) and enjoying doing them might want to pony up the Sub for the extra power. However, without the chance to experience it, they may never bother.
I'm perfectly okay with F2P folks living off SO's (without availability for IO's) and Premium the kindness of their friends for much of the goodies they can access with no ability to be an incarnate. This may drive up market prices on some salvage drops, or even drive them down (why not give paying subscribers a way to buy common IO's in AE like everything else?)
Locking them out of rewards but giving them access will still have them playing content with everyone else, making them hungry for the 'good stuff'.
The only argument I could see against Incarnate stuff is the lack of level shifts to do the trials with (maybe they could buy those without getting any of the other benefits... per character... hmmm) See where I'm going?
Edit- I could see it getting as fundamental as no enhancement drops (have to buy from vendors and contacts for F2P, though Premium gets drops) and F2P can only buy inspirations from vendors, though Premium can get small inspiration drops.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
Oh, I agree, and I apologise if my post was overly terse. I did not mean to demean your point, or cause angst.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
SalckTech, I agree with you, I definitely don't think they should get unlimited access for free.
The entire point of my original post was to demonstrate how fine of a line there is between giving f2p players too much and giving them not enough. Also it is hard to judge what will be of value to f2p players (i.e. incentive to pay) and what won't. I just want to reinforce the importance of testing prices out, seeing what appeals to the masses and what doesn't, etc. |
This is why I'm glad I'm not on the dev payroll. Just how much of the chocolate shop should F2P get access to? This is a very complex (and emotive for some) issue, and I think the VIP only part of the shop will start from a different point depending on which customer (or staff, member, possibly) you ask.
Quote:
Extra Credit have often given City of Heroes screen time and praise, though most of the time it's just off-hand. For the most part, screenshots or name-drops from the game are used as examples of good design, even when they barely relate to the context of what's being said.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Threadjack: At the 2:38 mark, there is a screenshot from CoH, when he's saying, "In a multi-player game, players are content."
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
I feel at least partially responsible for this thread so I'll rebuttal. I was there, and it wasn't a huge split of the playerbase.
|
This severe, significant split in the community is easy to remember now, simply because when Jack Emmert sold out, NCsoft gave all existing subscribers both City of Heroes and City of Villains for free, so everyone now has both regardless. We're a single community which plays, or at least appreciates both sides NOW. But I've lost count of how many times people tried to insult me with derogatory derivatives of "hero" and how many times I had to try to convince people that no, really, I honestly do play both heroes and villains. And this never seemed to sink in with people, because they only had either CoH or CoV, sour grapes caused them to become radicalised for their own side and against the other and many stupid arguments were had over which is better.
Even to this day, as a point of fact, you'll see people complaining that "devs hate villains" and that villain-side needs more content and more zones (which it does) and that co-op content is just hero-themed content that villains are allowed to participate in it if they don't mind acting as heroes. Hell, I'm one of the people making those complaints, because villain-side right now isn't even half the "size" of hero-side, and what it needs is villain-specific content, not co-op content. But, at least, now that everyone owns both games, we've been handling these kinds of discussions with much less vitriol.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
We can only assume there'll be a ton of new f2p members to help them in their journey.
|
Now, I'm not advocating that we open the flood gates and just throw the whole game at everyone for free, obviously. But I want to see Free players have the ability to at least communicate and team with each other. This has to happen if we want them to stick together. The ability to form teams is not a good thing to sell for real money.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
I think, if nothing else, there needs to be a special Free Members Only chat channel (maybe server-specific?) for them to communicate. Yeah, it might fill up with spammers, but other than that you're right, free players will be completely screwed. I was telling a friend who was interested in CoH: Freedom that he would be restricted to Local and Team, and that completely demolished his interest. And I didn't even tell him that he can't start his own teams with other Free members because I wasn't even aware of that myself -- that's pretty bad.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Now, I'm not advocating that we open the flood gates and just throw the whole game at everyone for free, obviously. But I want to see Free players have the ability to at least communicate and team with each other. This has to happen if we want them to stick together. The ability to form teams is not a good thing to sell for real money.
|
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
I think this is largely an unnecessary worry.
Existing subscribers will largely continue to subscribe. They may let their second or 3rd account lapse and go f2p but I strongly suspect that the majority of regular players will continue to subscribe.
I suspect also that there will be a lot of returning players - even if for short periods - those who either a) love the game but can't afford it b) like it but don't want to pay for it and c) those who don't really like it but have some good friends who do so will play for free to hang with them and d) those who love it but are so time limited the cost of a sub isn't justifiable. I personally know a few people who are looking forward to returning once Freedom lands so that's a good thing.
Will the VIP server split the community? I doubt that it will as much as many fear. I won't be leaving my "home" server in any hurry and I strongly suspect many others won't either. Sure, I'll spend some time on the VIP server but when my non-VIP friends return I'll spend time with them too. It'll balance out - just like the global server access has.
I don't often say this but I genuinely trust Paragon Studios to watch this very carefully and to tweak it as they go - they have a proven track record at keeping this game going despite seven years of "Doooooooooooooooooooom" from many of the community - and it gets bigger and (mostly) better with every issue. They really are not going to screw with a profitable revenue stream. NCSoft's share price is pretty solid and they know what they need to do. Remember they also run one of the oldest F2P games and still make money out of it. They have some serious experience in this area - so give them the benefit of the doubt.
Thelonious Monk
Totally Free: 80% of Powersets and 80% of Content
With a Few Micro Purchases: 100% of Powersets and 95% of Content.
So... where exactly is this split going to take place? Praetoria? Is there really a "Praetorian Community" in the first place? Only totally Free folks will be excluded. Freemiums can buy their way in.
Will the community split be End Game Content? Yes. But with up to 95% of the game available to Freemiums... that's OK with me. Besides, I bet within a year that today's End Game Content will be purchasable anyway.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Quote:
That's a very good point, and one I'd almost forgotten. I'll admit, I lurk more on these boards than post, and walk away from them when the drama gets too thick. I'm sure you have more prominent memories of it more than I. As to any arguments regarding what CoV needs, I have some opinions but this is not the thread to do it in. However, it does have relevance in the face of F2P vs Premium vs. Subscribing, and may give the Dev's a compass on some things to avoid.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I was there, as well, and the split in the playerbase was far larger than you make it out to be. Sure, most of the existing City of Heroes players bought City of Villains. We were already paying $15 a month for the thing, why would we not get the first expansion in what must have been 18 months at the time. The inverse, however, is not universally true. Of the people who got into the game with City of Villains, not nearly as many actually bought City of Heroes. In fact, City of Villains got its own forums, full of bitter, angry souls who insisted that City of Villains was a separate game and should be getting separate content and swearing up and down that they would never play City of Heroes if you paid them and that people who played City of Heroes were alternately spoiled brats or trolls who went to "their" boards just to taunt them and all sort of hyperbole like that.
This severe, significant split in the community is easy to remember now, simply because when Jack Emmert sold out, NCsoft gave all existing subscribers both City of Heroes and City of Villains for free, so everyone now has both regardless. We're a single community which plays, or at least appreciates both sides NOW. But I've lost count of how many times people tried to insult me with derogatory derivatives of "hero" and how many times I had to try to convince people that no, really, I honestly do play both heroes and villains. And this never seemed to sink in with people, because they only had either CoH or CoV, sour grapes caused them to become radicalised for their own side and against the other and many stupid arguments were had over which is better. Even to this day, as a point of fact, you'll see people complaining that "devs hate villains" and that villain-side needs more content and more zones (which it does) and that co-op content is just hero-themed content that villains are allowed to participate in it if they don't mind acting as heroes. Hell, I'm one of the people making those complaints, because villain-side right now isn't even half the "size" of hero-side, and what it needs is villain-specific content, not co-op content. But, at least, now that everyone owns both games, we've been handling these kinds of discussions with much less vitriol. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Unfortunately - and this is my biggest concerns - that can't happen. If Free players "enjoy" the same restrictions as Trial players do now, that means they can't communicate with each other via tells and they can't invite each other to teams. The only way, realistically speaking, that Free players are going to be part of the community and not just part of the 50 feet of game space immediately around their in-game character is through the proxy of Premium and VIP players who can invite them and speak for them.
Now, I'm not advocating that we open the flood gates and just throw the whole game at everyone for free, obviously. But I want to see Free players have the ability to at least communicate and team with each other. This has to happen if we want them to stick together. The ability to form teams is not a good thing to sell for real money. |
After all, they tout the game hasn't changed to take IO's into effect, if players don't need them to play with everyone, they don't have to have them (see my previous suggestions for more details). Let the F2P have SO's as their strongest enhancement choice. Let them participate in Hami raids if they want, but they can't get (or slot) Hami-O's either. The content's available for those who want to play with their friends or enjoy that type of play, but there's a real incentive to subscribe if you enjoy that type of play often enough. Giving them access to it without the reward lets them try it out, and encourages subscribing if they like it and decide it's worth the reward.
Just my 2 cents anyway.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
Personally, I feel Free players should not only get their own channel, it should be a channel where Premium and VIP players can chat, as well. Free player announces he's looking for a team but neglects to say which side of the game he's on. VIP player asks, free player responds, VIP player sends an invite. Everybody wins. I furthermore believe that Free players should be allowed to send tells and team invites, but only to other Free players.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I think, if nothing else, there needs to be a special Free Members Only chat channel (maybe server-specific?) for them to communicate. Yeah, it might fill up with spammers, but other than that you're right, free players will be completely screwed. I was telling a friend who was interested in CoH: Freedom that he would be restricted to Local and Team, and that completely demolished his interest. And I didn't even tell him that he can't start his own teams with other Free members because I wasn't even aware of that myself -- that's pretty bad.
|
I suppose that could cause Free players to get spam from time to time, but then again... Who the hell sends spam to FREE players in a FREE to play MMO? They aren't a cent for their game, do you really expect them to pay stupid amounts of money to shady dealers? Why spams Free players?
My biggest desire is to let Free players have as many of the basic rights of Premium players, but restricted among themselves. Chat, trade, invite, friend and so on, these need to be open to all players. In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest Premium and VIP players be given the option to flag themselves as accepting chat and invites from Free players if they so desire. I would, at least to try and see what kind of chat and invites I get.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
The tiered model proposed for Freedom is very similar to a tiered model used by Another Large Game Company to launch a freemium version of their Large Well Known Game. (Gotta love forum moderation.)
That game (I wonder if I'll get modded for using a made-up name?), let's call it X; Game X has a well-established end game. The goal of the tiered system was to convert free players into subscribers, very much like Freedom.
The marketing people of ALGC decided that the way to accomplish their goal was to wall off the end-game from the free players. They didn't do this directly. That is, they didn't build an actual wall around the end-game zones. Instead, they created restrictions on the end-game gear and on the use of the market where the end-game gear is traded.
While a Tier 1 or Tier 2 player could certainly attempt to participate in the end game activities, in practice he'd be hard put to contribute meaningfully and he'd be unable to use any of the rewards.
This is the kind of walling off that the video refers to and, in fact, it mostly failed; just as the video predicted. The reason being that the tier 2 players felt they were being railroaded into a subscription when they didn't want one.
It didn't help that the value of a subscription was dubious if you didn't actually care about the end-game. To their credit, the devs bent on the issue and created a way for the free players to purchase tokens that allowed them to use the end-game gear on a per-item basis and that made the Tier 2 players happy - it meant they had the choice that they craved. That was the important thing, you see - not the question of whether the Tier 3 sub meant spending dollars or not.
The situation in Freedom is a bit different, in my opinion. Aside from the limitations on character slots, the Tier 1 and Tier 2 players of Freedom are receiving a complete game experience. They are able to play pretty much the same game that we all played up through around Issue 12, I think. Tier 2 players, meaning that they spent dollars in the store once, even get "limited" access to some of the premium features like the Architect and Wentworth's.
The only thing that non-sub players are being gated from is content that is "outside" of the main stream of progression in the game. Becoming an incarnate is not the be-all, end-all of City of Heroes. There are many, many people who don't give a flying fig about incarnates or even about reaching level 50.
Praetoria is a bit of an issue, but even that is basically a bonus feature - an alternate universe whose original purpose is going to be fairly well sidestepped by the new Galaxy City entrance zone that lets players choose from the beginning what combination of alignment and archetype they want to pursue.
In the end, I don't believe that the video that has some people excited by its warnings, actually applies here. I think the marketing people of Paragon Studios have actually gone to some lengths to address the issues in the video while still reserving enough content for subscriptions that the subscriptions bring real value to the player. Time will tell whether the players perceive it that way, of course.
A lot will depend on us, actually. The forum users of the forums of Game X reflected the attitudes of game devs, in that they considered the Tier 1 and Tier 2 to be free loaders who ought to be subscribing. They regularly came in and complained about every feature that the freemium players got and acted snobbish towards them. That only reinforced for most of the freemium players that they did NOT want to become subscribers.
If we treat the "Freems" like second-class citizens, they will respond in kind. Paragon Studios, whether they realize it or not, is taking a bit of a gamble that WE, the players, will be a class act and welcome those new Tier 1 and Tier 2's into the fold, show them the ropes, and show them just why their game will be that much more enjoyable as a subscriber.
Quote:
The undeniable fact is that the F2P players will be second-class citizens simply because there will be certain things that they are not allowed to have. But there is still time to ensure that those things which they cannot access will inspire a positive, ambitious reaction (hopefully leading to payment) rather than a negative reaction leading to them leaving the game.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
A lot will depend on us, actually. The forum users of the forums of Game X reflected the attitudes of game devs, in that they considered the Tier 1 and Tier 2 to be free loaders who ought to be subscribing. They regularly came in and complained about every feature that the freemium players got and acted snobbish towards them. That only reinforced for most of the freemium players that they did NOT want to become subscribers.
If we treat the "Freems" like second-class citizens, they will respond in kind. Paragon Studios, whether they realize it or not, is taking a bit of a gamble that WE, the players, will be a class act and welcome those new Tier 1 and Tier 2's into the fold, show them the ropes, and show them just why their game will be that much more enjoyable as a subscriber. |
I think back to the days of level restrictions on hazard zones and the old version of side-kicking. In those days, if I had my lighly DO'd level 28 blaster side-kicked with a level 50 IO'd Controller, you better believe I felt weak. But the important thing was that I knew that I could be that powerful eventually (i.e. level 50 with stronger enhancements). However, when that team suddenly had a mission in a zone with a level restriction higher than my level, I could not go with them to the next mission and had to leave the team, which made me feel far worse than being weaker than my teammates.
A similar situation could easily arise when Freedom launches, because while F2P players will have access to a ton of content (just like my old lower-level character in the aforementioned example), there will be situations where they will be excluded from participating in something. Perhaps it is just my view point, but it seems to me that it would be a hell of a lot easier to explain to a Free player that they cannot be as strong as a paying player, rather than trying to explain that they cannot team up with a paying player because they don't (or haven't) paid.
Again, one of my favorite quotes from that video is: "Your players are the content." We already have the VIP server as "the special place where only VIPs can go." And as far as I'm concerned, the Incarnate trials can stay VIP exclusive (both participation and rewards). We should not be excluding any Free/Premium players from interacting nor teaming with VIP characters in any place from level 1-50.
The things that should be unobtainable by Free/Premium players are the higher power rewards: things like IOs and/or IO sets and, as I said before, Incarnate abilities. The reason is two-fold. First, you provide good incentive for your paying customers to remain VIPs. After all, someone who spent a lot of time and inf getting, crafting, and slotting IO sets certainly wouldn't want to lose access to them. Second, you provide a higher tier of power for VIP players that Free players will see in action when teamed, and hopefully want to obtain (by becoming subscribers).
Now, I promised I would keep this diplomatic, and coming at it from the other side, the argument could be made that we would be selling power at that point (a condemnable offense). However, IOs, IO sets, and Incarnate abilities would not be purchasable through the Paragon Market (if such a system that I suggested were to be implemented). Therefore, the "haves vs. have nots" scenario would be avoided when comparing one Free player to another.
When everything is said and done, this is an RPG, and RPGs are based around motivating players to advance their characters in power. Why not embrace that format and organize the stuff available to Free players with that in mind?
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Quote:
Thank You Nate for a complete summation of the truth of the matter
|
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
Honestly here is what we got.
There is us. The community. Who allready pay perfectly happy. -Nothing- is being taken away. So long as we don't stop paying. Before when you did NOT pay you GOT NO ACCESS AT ALL. |
Virtue Server Forever !
Pure White Lightning - Level 50 Electric Brute
Purple Drop - work in progress Axe/Shield brute
Blue Icefall - Level 50 Ice Tank
@Blue Lava
Quote:
*sigh* I'll say it again: this topic is NOT a complaint about the fact that, come launch day, if I let my subscription lapse, I won't be able to play everything that I had while subscribed. Hell, I agree with ShadowNate on that particular issue.|
Originally Posted by Blue Lava
Thank You Nate for a complete summation of the truth of the matter |
The topic I am attempting to discuss is: What should or should not be offered to Free and Premium players in order to positively encourage the most upgrades to subscriptions?
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
It's a little difficult to judge, because we don't have all of the facts.
If you get access to Praetoria for being a VIP, but you can also get access as a Premium membership by purchasing it for $10, then I submit that Praetoria is not actually gated content. Both sides are paying dollars to access it. The Premium player even has the advantage, in that his access is permanent whereas the subscriber will lose access to Praetoria if she hasn't previously purchased Going Rogue.
If you can buy a $5 Signature Story Pass for one month, then that content is only gated to the extent that the Premium player is making a conscious choice to forgo that content.
Equal access doesn't mean "don't charge anybody for any extra content". It just means that everyone has equal opportunity for access.
I haven't attended all of the podcasts and such, so I'm not sure if we have a complete list of gated content right now. I suspect that we do not. Until we have that list and we know exactly how much of that gated content will be purchasable in the store as an alternative to a subscription, we can't really say just how "quarantined" the content really is.
One problem with that video is that it's really not completely true. The one big success story of the free-to-play model is DDO, and they broke most of those "rules". The certainly separated content into have and have not. Some of that content offered access to items that were not available in other areas and was either better or simply offered options not available elsewhere. And they even straight out sold power in the form of stat tomes (which were available for free, but were far outside of what anything but a veteran farmer would actually have access to while playing the game normally.)
This started as a response in the "New Power! No Points!" thread, but grew long enough, and developed into something different enough, to warrant a more specific topic. Fair warning, this became like an essay. If you're not a fan of lengthy posts, you need not read it.
The popular point of discussion on that thread is this video on Microtransactions. If you haven't seen it yet, please give it a watch, it is quite informative, and this post references it.
I agree with the "don't sell power" concept expressed in the video, but it is not what worries me. After all, the Devs generally do a good job of keeping every power set in this game balanced. Even if they put power sets like Titan Weapons in the Paragon Market (and I highly suspect that they will), they will be balanced. No paid-for power set is going to be outstandingly stronger than previously accessible power sets. Yes, the set will be newer than others and therefore probably look fantastic, and it may even incorporate some new mechanics (like Titan Weapons' Momentum), but that should be the only example of "haves vs. have nots." A paid-for power set will not actually give anyone any more strength than another power set. It is for this exact reason that there will be no way to purchase access to the Incarnate system.
What worries me is the creation of the "haves vs. have nots" scenario by restricted access in-game.
Now, arguably, Praetoria will have been around for over a year by the time CoHF is released, so it may not split the community that much in terms of "players in Praetoria vs. players in Paragon City / the Rogue Isles." Most VIP players have experienced Praetoria, and most if not all of its arcs, already, so there will not necessarily be a surplus of new toons starting in Praetoria rather than "red" or "blue" side (particularly since we will have a new red/blue side tutorial). However, the Incarnate system certainly will split people up. Already there has been an increase in the ratio of players playing 50s as opposed to players playing lower level alts. It is absolutely not exclusive, and there are plenty of lower-level teams running around, so I am not crying doom saying that there are no pre-level-50 teams. The simple fact is that a search in the team finder will currently yield a higher number of level 50 characters online than if you had run that same search prior to Issues 19 and 20.
Freedom launches with i21, which brings the new Underground Incarnate Trial. Within 6 months of the launch, there is a good chance that the VIP players will receive further incentive for continued play of the Trials, such as further rewards from Astral Christy and Empyrean Michael, and/or expansion of our existing Incarnate powers like how Lore was expanded with Issue 20.5. Then of course, the next 5 Incarnate powers have to be released some time. The Incarnate content is going to keep coming, even if it is in lighter installments (i.e. i21's Incarnate content load vs. i20's). As long as it keeps coming, we will have a player base playing (very repeatedly, in some cases) an amount of content to which Free/Premium players have zero access. That effectively splits the community. While it is the end-game, and therefore only a fraction of the available content, it is an undeniable scenario where a VIP player will not be able to team up with Free/Premium friends because said player wants to focus his attention on advancing his level 50 characters.
Having said that, the Devs are being smart with their release of Issue 21/Freedom. They are launching a new mid-level range zone with a bunch of new stories, proliferating a lot of new power sets, and introducing a brand new way to start a character (which includes side-switching from level 1), all of which provide good incentive for playing lower level characters. Indeed, I expect to see a large amount of our long-withstanding VIP players rolling new alts, not only because they want to experience the proliferated (or in the case of Time Manipulation, new) power sets, but also because they wish to team up with and help the influx of new Free players and returning Premium players. That kind of initiative has earned CoH a great reputation over the years, and new players will hopefully form friendships with veteran players who will make them feel welcome. Introducing a bunch of reasons to get VIP players rolling new characters alongside the Free players' new characters is a valiant effort to integrate the "player tiers" immediately. That said, the gap still exists.
In summary...
Free/Premium players have to purchase access to Going Rogue, which means they have to pay to play with any VIP players who decide to create new characters in Praetoria. Free/Premium players also have absolutely no opportunity to team up for Incarnate content, the amount of which will only increase. True enough, there should be some incentive for Free/Premium players to become VIP players, and limiting access to archetypes is a perfect example. However, creating any situation where one player cannot play with another player is bad for the community. That problem was a big factor in the decision to remove level-restricted access to hazard zones and the implementation of super-sidekicking, and once those two things were done, players were overjoyed that they could now team with any friend or fellow SG member anywhere in the game. If the Free/Premium players are expected to stick around, maybe even end up as VIP players, they need at least a taste of what they are missing by not paying. It is very easy to team up with your Mastermind and show Free players all the cool things they can do, or demonstrate the awesome spawn-wiping power of Judgment, and have that be the subliminal "advertising plug" to become a VIP. However, there is no way to effectively share the experience of Praetoria's main city nor the Incarnate trials.
I am not crying doom, and I'll repeat myself saying that there needs to be incentive for Free players to become VIPs, but limiting access to certain parts of the game is not the way.
In this particular case, I actually want to be proven wrong, and I welcome any responses that attempt to do so. I only ask (for whatever that is worth) that you approach it objectively and avoid outlier examples and/or what-if situations. As this is is a massive multiplayer online community, I am referring to the general majority of the player base.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.