Implement Micro Transactions for power changes
By
DarkGob,
Posted on: 2011-07-13 06:56 in Suggestions and Ideas
/unsigned
How much for the "I Win" Button?
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Not a fair assumption. Possibly not possible, and in any case, I suspect that some of the things you find annoying and/or uncontrollable are there for a reason.| Again I am assuming that these changes would be balanced and fair. This way we have no complaints that a person with extra money gets some sort of unfair advantage that a standard subscriber cannot have or a F2P person does not have. |
In conclusion, it sounds like what you're really asking for is
Screw The Rules, I Have Money
(yeah, I linked to TV Tropes. 'Cause I'm evil.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Not much more to say.
Sure, I'll buck the trend.
/signed.
He didn't say, "Alternate, cooler powers I can pay money for".
He just said, "Alternate powers I can pay money for".
So instead of Flares, he gets the choice of Burning Bolt, which [insert fair-trade-off game mechanics from Flare here]. He can't have Flare and Burning Bolt - it's Flare or Burning Bolt.
Since (some) powersets (heck, some Archetypes) are already Premium content, why not have "alternate powersets" as another form of Premium content?
What's the difference between "Insect Control for masterminds costs Paragon Points", and "Robots using Praetorian Clockwork for masterminds costs Paragon Points points"? And from there, what's the difference between, "You can spend Paragon Points an option where your 'bots do less [X], but can do [Y] instead"?
As long as the "money sets" aren't better, just different (accepting that "different" is going to involve "situationally better and / or worse"), I don't see a problem.
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Sure, I can see this happening.|
Originally Posted by plainguy
I'm not going to debate the balance issues, I'm assuming they are balanced for this posting.
Again I am assuming that these changes would be balanced and fair. |
After the Second Coming, Apocalypse and Ragnarok.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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"Situationally better" in the same sense that some powersets are better at fire farms, perhaps?|
Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
As long as the "money sets" aren't better, just different (accepting that "different" is going to involve "situationally better and / or worse"), I don't see a problem.
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But really, another part of the issue here is the implicit assumption (fostered in some part by both the Devs and the community, I admit) that anything is possible if only Paragon had enough people, paid for by enough booster money, to throw at it. This rapidly becomes "the fastest/ONLY way to get the game changed how I want is to (offer to) throw my money at it." That's not only not true, it's a really bad mindset to get into (IMO). From there, it's not far to "game design/balance is determined by the highest bidder."
All of this is, of course, in the very theoretical talking-about-it-in-Suggestions stage. And it probably won't ever get further than that. But I think we should make sure it doesn't, and explain why to those who think it would be a good idea.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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/unsigned. The existing powersets are designed to be balanced so no one can make a uber character or a totally gimped one without a lot of effort.|
Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
Sure, I'll buck the trend.
/signed. He didn't say, "Alternate, cooler powers I can pay money for". He just said, "Alternate powers I can pay money for". So instead of Flares, he gets the choice of Burning Bolt, which [insert fair-trade-off game mechanics from Flare here]. He can't have Flare and Burning Bolt - it's Flare or Burning Bolt. |
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| Since (some) powersets (heck, some Archetypes) are already Premium content, why not have "alternate powersets" as another form of Premium content? |
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| What's the difference between "Insect Control for masterminds costs Paragon Points", and "Robots using Praetorian Clockwork for masterminds costs Paragon Points points"? |
1. Insect Control is a completely new powerset that needs to be designed from scratch including new nonhumanoid skeletons.
2. Robots using Praetorian Clockwork is swapping models that already exist in the game and redesigning them to use the same powers and animations as the current robots or tweaking the powers of the clockwork so they are balanced like the robots.
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And from there, what's the difference between, "You can spend Paragon Points an option where your 'bots do less [X], but can do [Y] instead"? As long as the "money sets" aren't better, just different (accepting that "different" is going to involve "situationally better and / or worse"), I don't see a problem. |
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Yes, but probably not in the way you mean that. Some powersets are better at fighting, say, Banished Pantheon than Freaks; some individual powers could show such a preference, too - "If your build is going to be heavily (A), then you should take Flares; if it's heavily (B), then go for Alternate Flares" is fine, to me.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
"Situationally better" in the same sense that some powersets are better at fire farms, perhaps?
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Yes, like any other power, alternate powers would be subject to optimization. But as long as Alternate Flares is not "Flares, but with better X", I think that's pretty acceptable.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
From there, it's not far to "game design/balance is determined by the highest bidder."
All of this is, of course, in the very theoretical talking-about-it-in-Suggestions stage. And it probably won't ever get further than that. But I think we should make sure it doesn't, and explain why to those who think it would be a good idea. |
Remember, this "alternate power" still takes a power choice. It still has to be slotted (well, maybe not "has to", but y'know). It's just another option. Is it a powerful option? Well, no - because we've already said, when arguing for it, that we don't want a powerful option - we want it to be an "equivalent" option. Is it a desirable option? Yes, clearly, to some (including me).
To suggest it another way - what if instead of paying Paragon Points to unlock new "numbers" behind the power (not better numbers, just different ones!), you paid Paragon Points to alter everything but the numbers - the name's different, animation's different, coloring is different, everything? Then, it's obviously a customization option.
And what if the devs made the choice between "Flares Mechanics #1" and "Flares Mechanics #2" available to every player, having carefully set up the mechanics to be (roughly, over a variety of situations; better here, worse there) equal? Well, I'd argue that's customization too.
Also, I'm not suggesting "out of archetype" powers - Tanks wouldn't get controls, Masterminds wouldn't get ... like, damage, I guess? ... it'd all still be "archetype appropriate".
Edit - To Forbin -
You mistake me. I'm saying nothing about code at all. In fact, I'm having difficulty reading my post in such as way as to take it as being about code. I'm saying, in terms of the game-mechanical alterations available in exchange for Paragon Points, those options are roughly equivalent.
In code-time, you're clearly correct - some are vastly more complex than others - but all you've accomplished there is winning an argument you were the only person in.
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That really isn't an assumption. It's basically true, but what the people that come up with these ideas don't want to acknowledge is that just because something "can" be done doesn't mean that it should or will be done for that matter.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
"Situationally better" in the same sense that some powersets are better at fire farms, perhaps?
But really, another part of the issue here is the implicit assumption (fostered in some part by both the Devs and the community, I admit) that anything is possible if only Paragon had enough people, paid for by enough booster money, to throw at it. |
A certain other super hero MMO tried the free form method of power selection and they were forced to switch back to using archetypes like we have here.
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If you don't know how different each powerset plays in any given archetype then you obviously haven't been playing the game much. Some powers are great in the beginning and the set balances out as you get higher while other sets are weak in the beginning and get great as you get higher.|
Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
Also, I'm not suggesting "out of archetype" powers - Tanks wouldn't get controls, Masterminds wouldn't get ... like, damage, I guess? ... it'd all still be "archetype appropriate".
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Allowing this fiasco would let players mini-max builds and totally destroy game balance.
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You'll pay for that!|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
(yeah, I linked to TV Tropes. 'Cause I'm evil.)
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In a couple of hours, once I've escaped.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
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No I don't mistake you. The fact that you can't see as how it applies to what you are arguing isn't my problem.
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Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
Edit - To Forbin -
You mistake me. I'm saying nothing about code at all. In fact, I'm having difficulty reading my post in such as way as to take it as being about code. I'm saying, in terms of the game-mechanical alterations available in exchange for Paragon Points, those options are roughly equivalent. In code-time, you're clearly correct - some are vastly more complex than others - but all you've accomplished there is winning an argument you were the only person in. |
Come again.......
Let's ask Elizabeth Taylor. Liz?
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Firstly, I haven't questioned your game-design ability or your understanding of City of Heroes in this conversation. I feel it's unfortunate you've decided that's appropriate.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
If you don't know how different each powerset plays in any given archetype then you obviously haven't been playing the game much. Some powers are great in the beginning and the set balances out as you get higher while other sets are weak in the beginning and get great as you get higher.
Allowing this fiasco would let players mini-max builds and totally destroy game balance. |
Secondly, you appear making the assumption that allowing alternate power choices inherently and obviously destroys game balance. I don't feel this is a reasonable assumption. Note that I have stressed, repeatedly, that it would be essential that the "alternate power choices" would be equivalent.
Let me try this another way.
Suppose there were a full powerset available with Paragon Points called "Crispy Fire Blasting", as a Blaster Primary, that, on the whole, as a powerset, is equivalent to the 'free' Fire Blast (and thereby, implicitly, most / all other Blaster sets, give-or-take). Crispy Fire Blasting does, maybe, more X, but then, it does less Y; people are going to have their preferences (they already do, for one set over another), but overall, neither one is "the best" or "the worst", in wide opinion.
That's not a problem for me. I anticipate sets being available in the Paragon Market, so "alternate" sets being available doesn't bug me. Anyone who doesn't anticipate new powersets being available on the Paragon Market should, most likely, prepare for disappointment.
(Note that the powersets on the Market may or may not be "Free to Premium Members". That's secondary to this discussion.)
Further, that powerset - "Crispy Fire Blasting" being broken down and sold power-by-power, presuming balance is maintained, wouldn't bother me, either - "Would you like Flares, or Crispy Flares, as your power choice?". Again, assuming the equivalent powers to be approximately equal, without one having a significant non-situational advantage over another.
I'm not suggesting I'm a coder, or a game-balance expert. But I am suggesting that reasonably equivalent versions of some existing powers could be designed, and sold - expanding options available in the market and in the game, while requiring (potentially) limited Dev time to fiddle-up the numbers.
(Examples: "Less damage, more recharge"; "Less recharge, more DoT"; "Less damage, but a minor debuff attached", etc, etc. Again, I'm not trying to balance them; I'm suggesting it can (could) be done. And since such "alternate sets" would reuse existing animation / graphics / etc resources, potentially they would be less time intensive than "whole new" powersets with new animations / graphics / powers / etc.)
Edit - Again, to stress - I'm not discussing the coding difficulty, aside from noting that with 'new powers', new graphics are required, and with 'alternate powers', new graphics are not required, and (admittedly) presuming that means the 'alternate powers' suggestion would require less Dev time (which, from my limited knowledge, the Devs have indicated in the past is true).
Also corrected at least one typo.
It seems to me that the level of variation of effect that you're looking for can be achieved through slotting choices - that this is, in fact, why the enhancement system exists.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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...and I'll grant you that's true, to an extent (and it tells me you're understanding the magnitude of the changes I'm suggesting).|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
It seems to me that the level of variation of effect that you're looking for can be achieved through slotting choices - that this is, in fact, why the enhancement system exists.
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But things like trading one debuff for another (say, a tohit debuff for a -regen, for instance - increasing, decreasing, or whatever the magnitude appropriately along the way) isn't quite doable with enhancements - but would be possible under this system.
So, "Yes, mostly." And it's the options that "mostly" would open up that I think would be interesting, and that I'd be willing to pay Paragon Points for.
Edit - "magnitude" as in, "size / scope of debuff", not as in, the CoX game-term "magnitude".
And now you're back to asking for more ability to minmax. No thank you.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Originally Posted by plainguy
Simple example I always use. Grenade instead of Trip Mine from Device / Traps set. Maybe less damage but quicker recharge.
Or for Time bomb the ability to click on it to make it go off when you want instead of hoping you get enough mobs on it or requiring the ability to stealth bomb. |
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Originally Posted by ThatGuyThere
Suppose there were a full powerset available with Paragon Points called "Crispy Fire Blasting", as a Blaster Primary, that, on the whole, as a powerset, is equivalent to the 'free' Fire Blast (and thereby, implicitly, most / all other Blaster sets, give-or-take). Crispy Fire Blasting does, maybe, more X, but then, it does less Y |
The OP isn't talking about modifying certain properties of attacks (More X, Less Y), as much as he's talking about entirely replacing certain powers with ones that function completely differently. Maybe this was a poor example of his, maybe not--but he replaced a couple of the worst attacks in /devices with a targeted AoE, and a modification to how the power worked (To which I reply: SCR).
To the OP that has so far failed to come back and defend his suggestion's merits: /Unsigned. It simply isn't fair to make people pay to replace the powers that they don't like just to get more functional ones.
Also, that chart is hilarious, Forbin.
Many games do this for costumes, CoX does this now of course. But I would like if they allowed for a micro transaction for a power change.
Simple example I always use. Grenade instead of Trip Mine from Device / Traps set. Maybe less damage but quicker recharge. I'm not going to debate the balance issues, I'm assuming they are balanced for this posting.
Or for Time bomb the ability to click on it to make it go off when you want instead of hoping you get enough mobs on it or requiring the ability to stealth bomb.
Again nothing new here many have requested these changes. So instead of trying to change the " Cottage rule " persay. Just create a 2nd power you can choose at the appropriate level for a fee.
I would say 5 US dollars per power and maybe 20 US dollars for several changes in a set. Or even the ability to buy power changes across different sets and have the system count up the changes and just offer a 6 power changes for 20 dollars. So I can take 2 for Device / Traps, 2 for Ice and 2 for Energy Blast lets say.
Again I am assuming that these changes would be balanced and fair. This way we have no complaints that a person with extra money gets some sort of unfair advantage that a standard subscriber cannot have or a F2P person does not have.
I can think of bunch of powers I would like alternate effects for and would pay 100 bucks easily to have.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives