The Proliferation Scorecard (and what's left to do)
By
Alef_infinity,
Posted on: 2011-07-07 16:21 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Your stalkers hit and run? o.O|
Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
Im not sure putting Invulnerability on a Stalker is a good idea, or Stone Armour.
For one thing, Stalkers do insane amounts of damage as is in a burst, put invulnerability on them, and you get the potential to have a vicious little one-shotting teambuster. One of the game play factors of a Stalker is hit and run tactics. Invulnerability would mean pretty much, running isn't required, and also, stone armour? Not much running going to be going on there. LMAO |
My Stalkers hit and then stayed.
And none of them are obviously INV.
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Couple of things on Stalker Invul....| But I disagree, in theory at least, about Invul not making them tougher as an AT. As you'll be in point blank range once you strike, and given how invul can reduce melee damage taken better than any other armor set, I do believe that would be enough to remove a stalker from squishdom even without IO sets. Especially as most melee damage is smashing and lethal in the game and, once you factor in Invul's defences of Tough Hide and Invincibility, you're effectively making a squishy character extremely tough and then, there is dull pain's massive hp boost on top of all that. When you factor in physical resistance that exceeds everything else, defences to everything bar psychics, the ability radically boost your HP for several moments, and you really think an invulnerable stalker wouldn't be all that once they've practically one shotted the boss? |
1) Generally when a proliferation occurs for Stalkers from the other Melees the first thing to change is the taunt aura(for Invul it's Ivincibility) becomes hide,moved to tier 1 and everything else gets bumped up 1 tier.
So the Defense from Invincibility becomes a non issue since Stalkers wouldn't get Invincibility judging from other proliferations.
2) A Stalker will never have more than 1606 HP no matter how much +HP you throw at them. 1606 is the Stalker Cap on HP and nothing in game can get them past that.
3) Stalker Resistance caps at 75% if I'm not mistaken. This is a Cap and no amount of +Res will bring them past that cap.
So our Invul Stalker with it's 1606 HP and 75% resist isn't the indestructible force you seem to think it would be.
Harder to kill than what's currently available? Not likely in fact I'd say it's on par with what's available now.
EDIT: You mentioned nothing can reduce Melee damage better than Invul, to this I heavily disagree as any Defense set that prevents a hit from happening effectively reduces the damage of that hit by 100%
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Ok the one shot thing might be an extreme exaggeration on my part for that I am sorry, but on a good day an assassin strike can remove a lot of health. Which is partially my concern. Because if Stalkers get invul and keep Invincibility, they are going to have considerable defence, and as I've said before resistance to melee damage well beyond any of the other armour sets, and they are supposed to be a squishy AT.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Many issues with this. Working backwards.
The stalker cannot one shot a boss. Not even practically. Not even close. Most LTs cannot be one shotted at level 50. Dull pain does just shy of diddly for a stalker. Once you have accolades, you're only a few % from the hit point cap. I know my /regen stalker and EA stalker cannot use their +HP powers to increase their HP. And don't forget that all stalker defense sets miss out on one power because of hide. It would likely be the passive resistance power or even invincibility. Not to mention that all the sets are pretty much balanced as is. My Dark Armor Stalker could stand in the middle of an 8 man spawn. I've seen regen and ninjitsu and SR stalkers do the same. What would be the big deal if an invuln stalker could too? |
Other stalkers engaging 8 enemies at a time is something doable and I'd expect it, but I've seen my friend on his MA/Invul scrapper engaging close to, if not, double that by himself. I guess that's what primarily occupies my thoughts. And while its no cakewalk for him and insps have to be used occasionally, he does get through it. A stalker with an assassin blow which will inflict considerable damage, possibly even terrorising some nearby enemies can then be whittled away readily.
I suppose the thing I had in mind was the difference that Temp Invul makes if you pick it up on a Defender to their ability to repel the damages.
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| EDIT: You mentioned nothing can reduce Melee damage better than Invul, to this I heavily disagree as any Defense set that prevents a hit from happening effectively reduces the damage of that hit by 100% |
I think it's fairly obvious you have no real experience with Stalkers. Assassin's Strike can be used ONCE in a normal fight, right at the beginning. It's impossible to pull off reliably in combat against multiple opponents without heavy defense set bonuses. I have a Stalker who HAS those kinds of bonuses and he still fails to pull off a mid-fight AS about half the time.
Moreover, the duration of Demoralize is in the single digits.
Your Scrapper friend almost certainly has numerous set bonuses if he can solo mobs at the aggro cap. At that point the set bonuses are doing at least half the work in terms of survivability.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I wonder if it is technically possible for them to make powers that increase the cap?e.g. so when dull pain is active, the cap is X% bigger too.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
2) A Stalker will never have more than 1606 HP no matter how much +HP you throw at them. 1606 is the Stalker Cap on HP and nothing in game can get them past that. |
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Im always reluctant when I argue anything to say "Ive got experience" as usually somebody will go "yeah course you did" Ive had some bad experience on forums in the past so apologies if Im not making sense.
I had a level 30 claws / regen stalker actually prior to deleting to free up room for my new chars. So While I may not be a Stalker expert as yourself maybe, Im definately not as clueless as most of the people who are countering my concerns would like to believe.
He does have a list of set bonuses aye. And as I say insps are used.
Like I say, I still think Invul will make a VERY formidable stalker. And on that note, Im going to wait and see. But hopefully Im just being paranoid. If stalkers get invul and lose invincibility it'll probably balance out ok.
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I must have been unclear. I said 8 man mobs. Which by that I mean x8 missions. Solo.
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Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
Other stalkers engaging 8 enemies at a time is something doable and I'd expect it, but I've seen my friend on his MA/Invul scrapper engaging close to, if not, double that by himself.
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Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
As I understood, all enemies have got a 5% chance to hit you no matter how high your defence is. Which is why, if you have invulnerability and the hit lands it will be minimised better than other resistances. |
I meant my comment as a joke. yes enemies will always have a 5% minimum chance to hit you regardless of defense values. However when an enemy attack misses it does 0 damage, if it's 0 damage it's like 100% resist. Naturally your not going to avoid every attack.
Overall though Invincibility would be a fine set for Stalkers, especially since Invul would probably be changed to Hide.
Now onto the real game breaker Psi Melee Stalkers.
Stalkers would never get a taunt aura like Invincibility, so you can rule that out if Invuln was ever ported over.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Since we already have ported powersets that were previously said "would never be done" or "would be too over powered" or "would be too weak and broken" and those ports worked out fine, I tend to disregard any other such similar statements about other ports.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Couple of things on Stalker Invul....
1) Generally when a proliferation occurs for Stalkers from the other Melees the first thing to change is the taunt aura(for Invul it's Ivincibility) becomes hide,moved to tier 1 and everything else gets bumped up 1 tier. So the Defense from Invincibility becomes a non issue since Stalkers wouldn't get Invincibility judging from other proliferations. |
Not arguing with your logic.. But it seems to me that taking out Invincibility would butcher the set pretty badly. unless they baked the effects in elsewhere.
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The devs certainly seem to have settled on total proliferation. That said, I'm still skeptical about giving Controllers Dark Miasma or giving Kinetics to MMs.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Since we already have ported powersets that were previously said "would never be done" or "would be too over powered" or "would be too weak and broken" and those ports worked out fine, I tend to disregard any other such similar statements about other ports.
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-D
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I've been wanting this for years.
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Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
I want martial arts for brute.
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@Joshua.
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Kinetics now will very much be a Fulcrum Shift or bust MM set when it makes it over there, the main reason I wanted it was Speed Boost, which is ever so slightly redundant when pointed at an MMs pets now.|
Originally Posted by Darkonne
The devs certainly seem to have settled on total proliferation. That said, I'm still skeptical about giving Controllers Dark Miasma or giving Kinetics to MMs.
-D |
Controllers with Dark Miasma I have both dreams and nightmares about.
I definately agree theres very little point anymore saying "cant ever see them porting this" when we have invisibility ice coming for stalkers... which by the way makes it time for another Electric Melee character for me
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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There's no reason they can't just remove the Taunt effect and change Invinc into an "enemies will not notice this attack" power.
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Originally Posted by Primantiss
Not arguing with your logic.. But it seems to me that taking out Invincibility would butcher the set pretty badly. unless they baked the effects in elsewhere.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
...
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<.<
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That would probably be the best solution, yea.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
There's no reason they can't just remove the Taunt effect and change Invinc into an "enemies will not notice this attack" power.
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Well, if you are talking about proliferation concepts...
I've always wanted a Force Field Defensive set for melee... sort of like shield, where a couple of the powers can help teammates as well... BubbleTankerFTW!
- Controller Control
- Rifle (Tear Gas, Stun Granades, Pepper Spray, etc...)
** this will go well with traps
- Dominator Assault
- Rifle Assault (mixture of range and rifle melee)
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Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
The stalker cannot one shot a boss. Not even practically. Not even close. Most LTs cannot be one shotted at level 50.
Dull pain does just shy of diddly for a stalker. Once you have accolades, you're only a few % from the hit point cap. I know my /regen stalker and EA stalker cannot use their +HP powers to increase their HP.
And don't forget that all stalker defense sets miss out on one power because of hide. It would likely be the passive resistance power or even invincibility.
Not to mention that all the sets are pretty much balanced as is. My Dark Armor Stalker could stand in the middle of an 8 man spawn. I've seen regen and ninjitsu and SR stalkers do the same. What would be the big deal if an invuln stalker could too?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.