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That's not really a secondary effect though, and it sure as hell isn't a debuff.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Archery gets a 10% accuracy buff on top of its 5% accuracy buff for being a weapon set.
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If added accuracy is fine for a defender blast set, why wouldn't added damage be ok?
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Archery defenders have the most effective Stunning Shot, giving them the longest mez time. Same goes for AR with Beanbag.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Actually they don't.
Archery has no secondary effect. Arguably neither does Assault Rifle (some powers in AR do (One defense debuff, 4 KB), but the set a a whole does not). I don't expect to see a debuff added to fire just for defenders. |
Fire Blast on defenders has no advantages over Fire Blast on corruptors and blasters. None whatsoever, arguable or not.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
One big question is, are we getting the "nerfed" fire blast or the good, corruptor version?
It's not a big difference in performance, 1.452s or 1.848s cast on Fire Blast, but for me that 0.4s pause on Fire Blast looks very ackward on Blaster Fire Blast, to the point that I can't enjoy the powerset on that AT anymore.
Looking at past ports, defenders got the blaster, nerfed version of Ice Blast (and a much bigger difference there, Ice Blast going from 1.17s to 1.848s). :/
Admittedly, it's arguable defenders have it better with rains as these deal the same damage regardless of the AT. It's more of a fun/perception issue.
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"Secondary effect" doesn't always mean a debuff or something. Claws gets a recharge and end discount on all its powers; Dual Blades gets combos.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
That's not really a secondary effect though, and it sure as hell isn't a debuff.
If added accuracy is fine for a defender blast set, why wouldn't added damage be ok? |
Also, I'm not saying DoT shouldn't count as a secondary effect.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Force Field/Fire Blast sounds awesome!
I doubt Defenders would get cranked up DoT on their version of Fire Blast. Would be interesting I suppose, but I don't its likely. Since the best aspect of Defender blasts is the modifiers on their secondary effects, I'm not too excited about Fire Blast.
Sonic Blast will remain king of the Defender secondaries as far as powergaming is concerned. Hard to argue with stackable 20% resist debuffs. That said, I think the biggest advantage of Defenders getting Fire Blast will be that it might encourage more aggressive play, something most Defenders seem to lack.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
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Totally apart from being excited for concept reasons, I think /fire might be a bit more attractive than you're giving it credit for.|
Originally Posted by Silas
I doubt Defenders would get cranked up DoT on their version of Fire Blast. Would be interesting I suppose, but I don't its likely. Since the best aspect of Defender blasts is the modifiers on their secondary effects, I'm not too excited about Fire Blast.
Sonic Blast will remain king of the Defender secondaries as far as powergaming is concerned. Hard to argue with stackable 20% resist debuffs. That said, I think the biggest advantage of Defenders getting Fire Blast will be that it might encourage more aggressive play, something most Defenders seem to lack. |
Apart from encouraging aggressive play (which is definitely a good thing, as you say), /fire seems nice to me as an *alternative* to /sonic from a purely offensive point. A lot of the time, you just don't *need* defensive-oriented debuffs on your blasts - what does a dark defender care about -recharge when everything is debuffed to smithereens already? In these cases, more damage is welcome. While /sonic most likely wins because of the stackable debuffs, /fire is at least another damage-heavy secondary for those who are tired of yelling at their foes. It might not be the *best* powergaming-oriented secondary, but it's at least a cut above the rest of them.
And (if past precedents are followed) getting RoF on blaster numbers is going to be soooooo tasty. Between that, fire breath, and fireball, the AoE output of fire blast is going to be *significantly* better than /sonic's. If you choose to mostly play solo or on smaller teams (thus minimizing the usefulness of the -res in howl), /fire might actually be the superior choice for general AoE damage.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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That'd be a candidate for the Defender Issues thread, based on how blaster cast time normalization is supposed to be implemented. Animation time increases to tier 1 and 2 blasts are for blasters only (so other ATs don't get penalized for Defiance 2.0). Animation time decreases are shared across all ATs.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Looking at past ports, defenders got the blaster, nerfed version of Ice Blast (and a much bigger difference there, Ice Blast going from 1.17s to 1.848s).
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Corruptors have the exact same 1.848 cast time on ice blast as defenders and blasters do.
Hey, I was just saying that I'd LIKE to see a -dam effect, not that I in any way expect to see it happen.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Not a def debuff so much as a death debuff.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
it's debuff will be making things dead, the best debuff of all.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
/Fire Defenders should get the same DOT numbers as Blasters (or at least Corruptors), in keeping with the "increased secondary effect" theme. Initial damage would use Defender numbers.
Defender's don't have an 'increased secondary effect theme', at least in the sense of it being an immutable design rule. When a blast set has better secondary effects than for other ATs, it's simply because defenders have better modifiers for said effect.
Notice that defenders don't get a higher inherent accuracy bonus for archery, assault rifle, and dual pistols; that's because there's no such thing as an archetype modifier for accuracy bonuses. They also don't get better endurance drain in electric blast because all ATs have the same modifier strength for that effect. In general, secondary effects just use the modifier of the AT to determine strength, and that ought to hold for fire blast's DoT. When fire comes to defenders, I will be very surprised if the secondary DoT is somehow changed to not use the usual defender damage modifier.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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(in PvE)
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
defenders ... also don't get better endurance drain in electric blast because all ATs have the same modifier strength for that effect
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There's no such theme. Among blasters, defenders, and corruptors, energy blasts have the same chance for knockback, archery has the same accuracy bonus, and dual pistols fire ammo has the same percentage of extra damage in its DoT. The only reason defenders tend to have greater secondary effects is because they have larger modifiers to debuff effects, and the secondary effects for blasts tend to be debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso
/Fire Defenders should get the same DOT numbers as Blasters (or at least Corruptors), in keeping with the "increased secondary effect" theme. Initial damage would use Defender numbers.
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Whether or not there SHOULD be such a theme is something else entirely.
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Bah, go away for a weekend and miss a question! OK- as others have said, the buff numbers will be better for a Thermal Defender. The Biggest selling point for me is, unlike Cold Thermal gets it's debuffs at the end of the set. So getting Heat Exhaustion and Melt Armor at 26 & 32 rather then 35 & 38 will make a HUGE difference, solo and team-wise for me.
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Benchpresser,
Just out of curiosity, why switch? Do you like the Defender numbers that much? Or is it a concept thing? Just wondering, since all the proliferation stuff is making me wonder whether I should make and/or remake some characters as Corruptors or Defenders. I favor Defenders conceptually for some reason, but not entirely sure why. So I'm just wondering your thoughts on it. Or anyone else's. I am truly stumped.  Lewis |
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
For anyone curious, pending any changes to the Thermal powers, these are what the numbers should be on a Defender, unslotted at level 50:
Warmth
Heal -> 133.86
Fire Shield
Res(S/L/F) -> 20%
Res(C) -> 10%
Cauterize
Heal -> 262.37
Plasma Shield
Res(E/N/F) -> 20%
Power of the Phoenix
Rez Heal -> 712.145
Rez End -> 70
Thaw
Prot(Mez) -> -12.99
Res(Sleep) -> 216.5%
Res(Slow/RechSlow) -> 80%
Res(C) -> 10%
Forge
ToHitBuff -> 25%
DamageBuff -> 50%
Heat Exhaustion
DamageDebuff -> -62.5%
RegenDebuff -> -500%
RecoveryDebuff -> -200%
EndDrain -> -16.25
Melt Armor
ResDebuff -> -30%
DefDebuff -> -25%
I'm going to make a thermal as well. I don't care to make a /Fire defender but it's nice that the option is there 
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
For anyone curious, pending any changes to the Thermal powers, these are what the numbers should be on a Defender, unslotted at level 50:
Melt Armor ResDebuff -> -30% DefDebuff -> -25% |
(drooool)
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Problem is Melt Armor takes too long to recharge IMO - same with Liquify on Sonic Resonance and Heat Loss on Cold Domination.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
(drooool)
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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150 s recharge 40 s duration isn't that bad. This should be up most of the time pretty easily in high-recharge end game builds. I agree that in levelling up though, it might take a while. Luckily it is tier 9 though, so when you get it the end should be in sight.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Problem is Melt Armor takes too long to recharge IMO - same with Liquify on Sonic Resonance and Heat Loss on Cold Domination.
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"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
Even though Melt Armor > Tar Patch, Tar Patch is up waaaay faster and at that level everyone's accuracy is so high the -def won't make a huge impact.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Archery has no secondary effect.
Arguably neither does Assault Rifle (some powers in AR do (One defense debuff, 4 KB), but the set a a whole does not).
I don't expect to see a debuff added to fire just for defenders.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.