Hey thanks all for putting this great information together.
@MarvelatMee and @COL Burn
24 - 50s
Too many ALTs
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Hang on a sec - pylons have ~120 hp/s regen, correct? Does that mean that longbow only have ~60 raw DPS? That doesn't seem right - that's less than half the lowest other set of pets. Could I ask to see the data you used to calculate this (time to defeat or damage dealt over a period, etc)? I just crafted the longbow ally for my FC-themed character, and I'd be concerned if they were really that much worse than all the rest of them.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Longbow get special mention, they don't have 184 raw DPS and achieved their results through the cataphract's ability to keep the Pylon's regen floored for the entire fight (-500 to -2000% regen).
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@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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Unfortunately, it would seem the case (Pylon has 127 HP/S Regen). |
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Hang on a sec - pylons have ~120 hp/s regen, correct? Does that mean that longbow only have ~60 raw DPS? That doesn't seem right - that's less than half the lowest other set of pets. Could I ask to see the data you used to calculate this (time to defeat or damage dealt over a period, etc)? I just crafted the longbow ally for my FC-themed character, and I'd be concerned if they were really that much worse than all the rest of them.
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It seemed quite low to me as well, but it may be considered a balance point for being capable of completely flooring (and I mean COMPLETELY) a target's regeneration for what was basically the entire duration of the pet's summon.
When I get home later today, I can post the full details for the Longbow pets.
Hmm. Looking back a ways in the pylon time thread, a fire/rad controller soloed one and there was some discussion of -regen. They must have some resistance to that effect, because controller LR (-500% regen) only dropped a pylon's regen by ~65%. Assuming that represents a pylon having resistance to -regen, that'd be ~87% resistance - about the same as a max level AV. If that's the case it would take ~800 -regen to stop one, so the real question would be 'what percentage of the time did the cataphract only have one stack of -regen on the pylon?' This might have to be decided with something like herostats, if it can track pet damage.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Couldn't you more easily just look with the power analyser? Doens't it show when effects stack?
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Hmm. Looking back a ways in the pylon time thread, a fire/rad controller soloed one and there was some discussion of -regen. They must have some resistance to that effect, because controller LR (-500% regen) only dropped a pylon's regen by ~65%. Assuming that represents a pylon having resistance to -regen, that'd be ~87% resistance - about the same as a max level AV. If that's the case it would take ~800 -regen to stop one, so the real question would be 'what percentage of the time did the cataphract only have one stack of -regen on the pylon?' This might have to be decided with something like herostats, if it can track pet damage.
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Unfortunately it would require more testing.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Hmm. Looking back a ways in the pylon time thread, a fire/rad controller soloed one and there was some discussion of -regen. They must have some resistance to that effect, because controller LR (-500% regen) only dropped a pylon's regen by ~65%. Assuming that represents a pylon having resistance to -regen, that'd be ~87% resistance - about the same as a max level AV. If that's the case it would take ~800 -regen to stop one, so the real question would be 'what percentage of the time did the cataphract only have one stack of -regen on the pylon?' This might have to be decided with something like herostats, if it can track pet damage.
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I have one clean screen shot where the Pylon has -1500 Regen applied to it and the regeneration rate has been dropped to 35 HP/S.
So it does seem to have some level of resistance. If I get a chance this week, I'll run another test.
Back to how I ran these (And credit goes to Werner for explaining to me how to calculate this).
This is all based on the Longbow pets
The Pylon has 30677.15 HP
At the 240s (4 minute) mark, the pylon had 19,849.76/30677.15 HP remaining.
So the Longbow Pets did
30,677.15 - 19,849.76 = 10,827.39 Raw Damage Dealt in 240s
Now to call on some assistance...
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Originally Posted by Core Superior Werner Ally
divide the raw damage, the damage you observed by 80%. The pylon has 20% damage resistance. So you do only 80% of your actual damage output to it. That gives us this equation:
Your actual damage * 80% = your observed damageAnd therefore: Your actual damage = your observed damage / 80%Or if you prefer multiplication: Your actual damage = your observed damage * 125% |
13,534.2375 / 240s = 56.39265625 DPS
56.39265625 + 127.8125 (Pylon's regen) = 184.20515625
However, as you've mentioned this isn't completely accurate because the Pylon is not regenerating 127.8125.
I would say -1500 regen is a pretty good average of what I saw during the test, which allows the pylon about 35 HP/S.
Which works out to a rough 91 DPS, which would still be on the extremely low end of the scale.
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Correct, I kept the power analyzer open during all of the tests to watch for debuffing and to take screen shots at each of the 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minute and 4 minute marks.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Couldn't you more easily just look with the power analyser? Doens't it show when effects stack?
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The pylon's regen isn't actually 127.8125. It's actually 30677.15 * 5% / 15 seconds = 102.257. But to overcome 102.257 HP/S of regeneration, you need to do 102.257 DPS AFTER resistance is taken into account, so as with hit points, we have to divide by 80%, giving us 127.844 or so DPS that we have to actually do to overcome its regeneration. That's slightly higher than previously stated because I forgot to take the Pylon's recent 2.5 hit point increase into account in its regeneration rate when I posted a revised pylon DPS formula.
It's worth checking with the power analyzer as well. I'd expect it to tell you 102 HP/S or so.
Edit: Argh. I just did it again, and I got 127.8215. I just can't do maths.
( 38346.4375 / time) + 127.8215 = DPS
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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No matter what the actual rate a pylon heals, it still means that the cataphract has flat-out amazing -regen.
Does the nullifier use those -res grenades?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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It does, but the Cims do so much DPS in comparison that I think you need to be facing a GM for the Cataphract to be a better choice.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
No matter what the actual rate a pylon heals, it still means that the cataphract has flat-out amazing -regen.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Does the nullifier use those -res grenades?
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Ok so after reading all of this
The cimereans do insane melee damage
More if you count the crits
The nemesis do next best about 70% ( which still beats my toons dps)
but ranged
Not remembering what else they bring to the party
Vengence?
I play an ill/ rad who enjoys soloing av/gms/pylons
So i think i will take the nemesis because they will stay back with me and i can buff and heal them better since i stay out at range too
Thabks for the info
Laserblitz
"Kicking digital a$$ and taking "trademarked by NCsoft" names since 2007"
If you see a rainbow costume or named "Emcc" it is me
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You need to read further into the thread. On paper the nems are #2, but put to the test they are way down the list. Deus actually tested all of them on a pylon and calculated their actual damage output. Here's his post for you:|
Originally Posted by Laserblitz_Emcc
Ok so after reading all of this
The cimereans do insane melee damage More if you count the crits The nemesis do next best about 70% ( which still beats my toons dps) but ranged Not remembering what else they bring to the party Vengence? I play an ill/ rad who enjoys soloing av/gms/pylons So i think i will take the nemesis because they will stay back with me and i can buff and heal them better since i stay out at range too Thabks for the info |
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Ok here's the full list, from highest to lowest. Longbow get special mention, they don't have 184 raw DPS and achieved their results through the cataphract's ability to keep the Pylon's regen floored for the entire fight (-500 to -2000% regen). * Cimerorans = 278 * Warworks = 209 * Phantoms = 204 * Rularuu = 199 * Carnies = 184 * Longbow* = 184 * Rikti = 180 * IDF = 179 * Arachnos = 178 * Nemesis = 164 * Robotic Drones = 162 * Polar Lights = 160 * Storm Elementals = 148 * Vanguard = 141 * Seers = 131 Some other notes: Storm Elementals, Carnies & the Laser Drone started to run low on endurance around the 3 minute mark and this hampered their performance a bit - that's pretty bad IMO considering the Character I was using had T4 Cardiac Core Paragon slotted. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Thanks for the info
I initially had the warworks and they work great for me
The ACU has a neg regen attack , not sure if it is as good as the longbow heavy
Vicky also has neg def effect which allows me to turn off my assualt leadership if i get low on endurance
I will just keep my big dull blue robots
Wish i could change thier color
Laserblitz
"Kicking digital a$$ and taking "trademarked by NCsoft" names since 2007"
If you see a rainbow costume or named "Emcc" it is me
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It's not even close.|
Originally Posted by Laserblitz_Emcc
The ACU has a neg regen attack , not sure if it is as good as the longbow heavy
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Its a minor amount AVs and Pylons can shrug off.
The Cataphract offers -regen on a level better than some debuff sets.
I don't do math, so pardon the "non-scientific" contribution:
Running Longbow Partial Core Improved Ally, Cataphract refuses to use Energy Barrage on a single target (say, a Rikti Pylon with no surrounding mobs). When it *does* use it (say, on an LGTF when rescuing Penny), it managed to hit a single target (meaning, despite the room being packed with enemies, it only HIT ONE target. Not a "Oh, it attacked everything, but missed all but one". It literally only rolled against one enemy with it's cone.) for two ticks of ~188 damage on a Rikti LT. Next hit was on an Advanced Drone for two ticks of ~240 damage. Both a far cry from the claimed 887 damage.
In AE "testing" against custom enemies with only a self-rez for defensive powers, attacks were in the ~140-170 area.
I would say I am most unhappy with the performance of the Cataphract, but... I have a GIANT FREAKING SPACE ROBOT WITH LASERS, so I can't complain TOO much. Yes, as a matter of fact, that WAS my only real reason for picking Longbow. I wanted a giant robot. Until they give me a "Longbow Cataphract" body type, and suitable costumes to go with it, the pet will have to do.
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The Vanguard pets need a buff. I'm not kidding - if you go radial instead, the helper pet rarely runs assault, and assault only gives 7.5% damage. The heal has a tohit check. If the heal actually hits (yes it does have high acc, but it can still miss) you also need to be next to the helper to get the heal. The wizard stands as far away as possible if they are following you when you are a melee toon while attempting the heal also.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Ok here's the full list, from highest to lowest.
Longbow get special mention, they don't have 184 raw DPS and achieved their results through the cataphract's ability to keep the Pylon's regen floored for the entire fight (-500 to -2000% regen).
Some other notes: Storm Elementals, Carnies & the Laser Drone started to run low on endurance around the 3 minute mark and this hampered their performance a bit - that's pretty bad IMO considering the Character I was using had T4 Cardiac Core Paragon slotted. |
I don't think I have ever seen the wizard heal the attack pet once.
Terrible to see that the core side is just as awful! Is it due to aoe calculations?
At least the Seers radial give perma fortitude.
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So what pet gives what debuff out of interest? And has anyone found any good tricks for them?
I like polar lights. They combine the advantage of range, and a decent damage type (energy) with extreme defense debuffs which as discussed under cimerorians makes a HUGE impact on their ability to hit. I find their ability to land AoEs effectively much higher than some other pets I have tried, and due to a combination of factors being discussed here, I propose a new calculation that will let people see why I love polar lights so much.
Every attack gets a bunch of weights applied to it based on damage type, debuffs applied, range vs melee, ST vs AoE, and the actual AoE details and number of max targets. Determine these weights via tedious nights of testing, arguments, black magic, and 7th degree blackbelt level calculus. Now, divide the attacks by the idiot-time factor which is a derivative of the animation times of attacks minus the dead time in the attack chains; Don't forget to carry the 12, and to do this calculation individually for every attack. Now take your results to professor science, he will promptly beat you senseless and burn them. DO IT AGAIN! This time, do it RIGHT. I'll be here ready to grade your papers when professor science is done with you... hehehe
...when he's done with you...
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As far as the lore pets go, range isn't necessarily an advantage, mostly because of fulcrum shift. Cimerorans run directly into melee fast enough to keep up with a fast fulcrum shifter, which makes them all the more deadly. Watching the Cim Boss push back for 2250 damage with their other attacks hitting in the 1500-1900 range isn't uncommon. That and with Lore Evasion giving them 50% aoe defense and 25% resistance to all, it is very rare that they actually die.
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Originally Posted by NecroOmNomNomicon
the advantage of range
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What are the base resists/defenses of the Rikti Pylons?
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@Inquisitor
As per Arbiter Hawk in http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=286660
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Anyone keen on trying to rebuild the rankings list?|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
There's been at least one significant Lore DPS balance pass since this compilation - i22 included a bug fix that was preventing 8 or so Lore trees from proc'ing Interface or benefiting from any Alpha slots. I also made a balance pass on them around the time of i20.5's release in an attempt to bring all of the sets within a reasonable margin of performance.
It's probably worth re-evaluating Lore pet DPS rankings if what you're interested in is maximum DPS performance. |
ETA: Which is not to say "Hey, do my homework for me!" I'll happily help with the testing. But I don't really want to do all of the testing myself, and I want to gauge how much people care about re-doing the testing.
Missed LineNoise's post. Nevermind.
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tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Rikti.War_Zone_Pylon
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Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
What are the base resists/defenses of the Rikti Pylons?
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Ok here's the full list, from highest to lowest.
Longbow get special mention, they don't have 184 raw DPS and achieved their results through the cataphract's ability to keep the Pylon's regen floored for the entire fight (-500 to -2000% regen).
Some other notes:
Storm Elementals, Carnies & the Laser Drone started to run low on endurance around the 3 minute mark and this hampered their performance a bit - that's pretty bad IMO considering the Character I was using had T4 Cardiac Core Paragon slotted.